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Excel diamonds and their "see before you buy" policy

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collinator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
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Hi guys,

So I''ve been looking at exceldiamonds and engagement rings direct, who don''t provide much information about the specific diamond, unlike WF and GOG. Because of this I''m less comfortable.. when it comes to purchasing from excel and ERD. However, at this point both GOG and WF don''t have the exact diamond I''m looking for. So I''ve been looking at excel, ERD, and others...

Exceldiamonds has this statement on their website "You can visit our showroom in NYC by appointment, or we can ship our diamond at no charge to an Independent Appraiser on your behalf". So I''m guessing that they pay for the shipping but don''t pay for the appraisal fee? So what would happen if the diamond is not up to par and I have to return it... I would still be stuck paying the appraisal fee?

Are there any other vendors out there that might offer to pay for the appraisal service?
 
Exceldiamond will provide IS/ASET and other image on request. I think ERD can provide IS too, might be wrong, so just ask.

If the vendor is paying for the appraisal then there will be a conflict of interest for the appraiser, which is why you always pay for that so that he is working for you instead of for the vendor.
 
stone cold: Thanks! that makes total sense now.. didn''t think of it that way

dreamer: i''ve looked a little on those and i didn''t see what i wanted.

specs of what i want:
10K budget: between 1.75 and 2 ct with platinum solitaire setting
Can go with lower colors; ex: J-K
Can go with lower clarity
However, want H&A or best possible cut

Basically I want affordable SIZE but don''t want to sacrifice cut

Is my budget too low for something along these lines?
 
You might just have to wait and stalk all the PS vendors. I have seen diamonds in the ~1.7ct range at WF and BGD for just under 10k that were K color SI1s. I don''t think you will hit to 2ct mark I am afraid.
 
As an slight aside, have you seen diamonds in the lower colors? I ask because they will look noticably warm and the look is not for everyone. (I owned a K for about 6 months but in the end did not like the color, just for background).
 
I recently checked out a K-L stone at a local jeweler and the warmth didn''t bother me one bit. I asked to see what a K-L stone w/ fluor would look like but they had some bad words to say about strong blue fluorescence... but I thought fluorescence was a good thing for lowered color stones...

Anyways, I guess you''re right... I''ll just have to wait until the right diamond comes in. Boooo..... and wow you''re up late!

the 2.0 K SI2 looks great, but I wish the price was right. argh.
 
Date: 1/23/2010 9:34:18 PM
Author:collinator
Hi guys,

So I''ve been looking at exceldiamonds and engagement rings direct, who don''t provide much information about the specific diamond, unlike WF and GOG. Because of this I''m less comfortable.. when it comes to purchasing from excel and ERD. However, at this point both GOG and WF don''t have the exact diamond I''m looking for. So I''ve been looking at excel, ERD, and others...

Exceldiamonds has this statement on their website ''You can visit our showroom in NYC by appointment, or we can ship our diamond at no charge to an Independent Appraiser on your behalf''. So I''m guessing that they pay for the shipping but don''t pay for the appraisal fee? So what would happen if the diamond is not up to par and I have to return it... I would still be stuck paying the appraisal fee?

Are there any other vendors out there that might offer to pay for the appraisal service?
Click to expand...
Excel will provide images on request, all you need to do is ask if there is a diamond you are seriously interested in. I believe ERD can provide ASET and possibly Idealscope if you ask.
 
Collinator,

We do not get involved in issuing or paying for an appraisal and in any capacity.

Some of our competitors issue "appraisals", we do not. For us to issue an ''appraisal'' or to even contract with an ''independent'' company to issue appraisals for all of our diamonds, would be akin to providing you with a ''home inspection report'' for a house we are selling.
 
Are you still considering Excel? I worked with them, got my diamond and ring from them, and have some definite opinions, good and bad, if you are interested.
 
I don''t know what happened to Excel - they used to be a good competitive site to all the other good vendors here. They used to provide imagescopes and brilliancescopes for all their stones, and everything they had was in-house.

I bought an H&A from them about 5 years ago, back when they did provide all that info, and it is a very nice stone. I don''t think I''d buy from them now though - there are more informative vendors out there.
 
Date: 1/23/2010 9:34:18 PM
Author:collinator

Exceldiamonds has this statement on their website ''You can visit our showroom in NYC by appointment, or we can ship our diamond at no charge to an Independent Appraiser on your behalf''.
Click to expand...
I know this is an old thread but for educational purposes ... most PS vendors offer this same service. Many of the PS vendors will allow you to go see the diamond in person. They also include at least 1 free shipping (be it to the appraiser or to you)
 
I am in the market for a new diamond I saw and contacted Excel Diamonds about getting a full work up on the diamond. I sent my inquiry about 10:30 PM est this past Thursday and I received a response from Barry in less than 12 hours. He had already ordered the diamond in to do a full work up on Monday and will be in touch with me Monday afternoon. That was an expeditious response, in my opinion. I am hopeful the diamond will be what I anticipate. I have to say the customer service with Excel has been EXCELlent so far.
 
Date: 1/25/2010 10:29:01 AM
Author: Judah Gutwein
Collinator,


We do not get involved in issuing or paying for an appraisal and in any capacity.


Some of our competitors issue 'appraisals', we do not. For us to issue an 'appraisal' or to even contract with an 'independent' company to issue appraisals for all of our diamonds, would be akin to providing you with a 'home inspection report' for a house we are selling.
Click to expand...
If the vendor pays, the vendor supplies the report, or the vendor is contracting with the appraiser than it’s not ‘independent’. I wouldn't even call such a report an appraisal. Kudos to Judah. As he points out, lots of jewelers play games with this. Your appraiser should be chosen and hired by YOU, not the seller. Put another way, it’s not a second opinion if it comes from the same people who supplied the first.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
ecf8503,

We are glad that you are happy with the stone you purchased from us 5 years ago. I'd like to clarify and address your points here. Indeed, our business model (since the timed you purchased your stone) has since evolved, to the point where we now supplement our own inventory by showcasing some 40,000 diamonds on our website from various wholesalers and manufacturers. As such, we (obviously) cannot possibly provide extensive information on 40,000 diamonds upfront, much less keep them in-house at all times.

However, our commitment to our customers has not changed and this is the salient point.
If a customer is interested in a stone we do not own and wishes to receive additional data and information, all the customer needs to do is ask.

15 years; you shall have your information today.

Neil,

Touche'. This point cannot be stressed enough. Customers will often ask us what information/documentation we supply with our diamonds. Of course the diamonds are accompanied by all original grading reports etc. However, customers will sometimes say, "well, vendor X,Y,Z, gives me an appraisal with my diamond ring, so how come you don't".

While they understand my analogy of "the fox guarding the henhouse" to explain why we ourselves do not issue feel good appraisals, they sometimes do not see it that way when it comes to other vendors who contract with third party appraisers.

However, to us, it's not that much different.

When a seller contracts ($$$) with an appraiser to verify all of the diamonds they sell, there is an automatic vested interest, which creates a conflict of interest.

When I was engaged in purchasing my home, the realtor was over the top with promoting a certain independent home inspector "she works with" to conduct our crucial inspection. I said nothing doing - no way. If I'm going to purchase this home, I need to go outside of the box and contract with an inspector who has no invested relationship with the realtor, period.

To us, it is unethical for any vendor to offer such appraisals, whether they are contracting with an outside company, and/or certainly when there is a staff member on payroll sitting in the back room churning out official looking in-house "appraisals".

The fact that some of the well known PS vendors here are engaged in offering any manner of appraisal (something which I hear from the customers who ask us about this), doesn't change our view and position on this issue.
 
Date: 3/21/2010 6:45:51 PM
Author: denverappraiser






Date: 1/25/2010 10:29:01 AM
Author: Judah Gutwein
Collinator,


We do not get involved in issuing or paying for an appraisal and in any capacity.


Some of our competitors issue 'appraisals', we do not. For us to issue an 'appraisal' or to even contract with an 'independent' company to issue appraisals for all of our diamonds, would be akin to providing you with a 'home inspection report' for a house we are selling.
Click to expand...
If the vendor pays, the vendor supplies the report, or the vendor is contracting with the appraiser than it’s not ‘independent’. I wouldn't even call such a report an appraisal. Kudos to Judah. As he points out, lots of jewelers play games with this. Your appraiser should be chosen and hired by YOU, not the seller. Put another way, it’s not a second opinion if it comes from the same people who supplied the first.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...
I don't find Judah deserves a pat on the back for clarifying what should have already been on their website written in more clear terms in the first place. I think it is a great policy and rare to find this listed on a website giving customers the ability to send a diamond to an appraisor of their choosing(although many PS vendors will provide this upon request) as this represents a risk to the vendor and considerable efforts to verify the insurance, safety and trustworthyness in dealing with a third party often unknown to the vendor.

For most experienced posters here independant implies unrelated to the vendor and most consumers would not expect a vendor to pay an independant appraisor for their time.

If they had written on their website:

You can visit our showroom in NYC by appointment, or we can ship our diamond at no charge to an Independent Appraiser of your choice the costs of the appraisal and return shipping if necessary to be bourne by the customer."

Then there would not have been any ambiguity, the sentence as originally written could have been interpreted as an offer to ship and pay for the appraisal as well and that is what prompted the customer's questions here.

Every PS vendor I have dealt with issues an in house appraisal with purchase, those are meant to HELP the consumer not to their detriment. The two appraisals I received valued my purchases at the purchase price and helped me for insurance purposes and were more acceptable to the insurance company than a sales receipt. Praising someone on this site for acting ethically is quite misleading especially when the majority of vendors discussed here are reputable and have never come close to passing off an in house appraisal as independant.
 
I do think there is a distiction between issuing an "appraisal valuation" , which facilitates proper insurance purchases and issuing a detailed and itemized bill of sale/sales receipt. Your comments can be construed as asserting that these two documents are essentially one and the same, save for the fact that a document with the word "appraisal" on top, is more "acceptable to the insurance company" and therefore deemed more 'helpful' to the customer. You argue that such an "appraisal document" is "meant to HELP the consumer not to their detriment", and seek to ascribe goodwill intent to the vendor(s) supplying said document.

We disagree and our counterpoint is very clear.

An appraisal, by definition, is designed first and foremost to apply a dollar valuation to the product sold. This being true, it is therefore a conflict of interest for a seller to supply a valuation document for an item which they have sold, whether they have contracted with a specific appraiser or whether they are issuing these documents in-house.

The fact that there may be a secondary benefit in an appraisal document being more acceptable to an insurance company (over a sales receipt), should not in our opinion, justify the issuance of such a document by the seller, simply because it is more helpful to the customer. It is therefore also immaterial in our opinion, as to the actual intentions of the vendor in suppling such a document.

I don't think I have ever heard of a case where an "appraisal" issued in-house, was valued at less than what the customer paid for the item...and for good reason
1.gif


A customer inquiring whether they can supply the insurance company with an itemized bill of sale in lieu of an appraisal, should still be encouraged to get a truly independent appraisal so that they are confident in the value of the item.
 
Date: 3/22/2010 1:16:18 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
Date: 3/21/2010 6:45:51 PM

Author: denverappraiser

Date: 1/25/2010 10:29:01 AM

Author: Judah Gutwein

Collinator,

We do not get involved in issuing or paying for an appraisal and in any capacity.

Some of our competitors issue 'appraisals', we do not. For us to issue an 'appraisal' or to even contract with an 'independent' company to issue appraisals for all of our diamonds, would be akin to providing you with a 'home inspection report' for a house we are selling.
Click to expand...

If the vendor pays, the vendor supplies the report, or the vendor is contracting with the appraiser than it’s not ‘independent’. I wouldn't even call such a report an appraisal. Kudos to Judah. As he points out, lots of jewelers play games with this. Your appraiser should be chosen and hired by YOU, not the seller. Put another way, it’s not a second opinion if it comes from the same people who supplied the first.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...
I don't find Judah deserves a pat on the back for clarifying what should have already been on their website written in more clear terms in the first place. I think it is a great policy and rare to find this listed on a website giving customers the ability to send a diamond to an appraisor of their choosing(although many PS vendors will provide this upon request) as this represents a risk to the vendor and considerable efforts to verify the insurance, safety and trustworthyness in dealing with a third party often unknown to the vendor.

For most experienced posters here independant implies unrelated to the vendor and most consumers would not expect a vendor to pay an independant appraisor for their time.

If they had written on their website:

You can visit our showroom in NYC by appointment, or we can ship our diamond at no charge to an Independent Appraiser of your choice the costs of the appraisal and return shipping if necessary to be bourne by the customer.'

Then there would not have been any ambiguity, the sentence as originally written could have been interpreted as an offer to ship and pay for the appraisal as well and that is what prompted the customer's questions here.

Every PS vendor I have dealt with issues an in house appraisal with purchase, those are meant to HELP the consumer not to their detriment. The two appraisals I received valued my purchases at the purchase price and helped me for insurance purposes and were more acceptable to the insurance company than a sales receipt. Praising someone on this site for acting ethically is quite misleading especially when the majority of vendors discussed here are reputable and have never come close to passing off an in house appraisal as independant.
Click to expand...
CCL,

I didn’t mention any of the other PS participating vendors at all, much less disparage them. Neither did Judah. I agree that there are some excellent companies here. It is a COMMON practice among jewelers to issue a ‘free’ appraisal along with what they’re selling containing seriously misleading information. It’s actually more common than not. Surely you know this.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Interesting discussion guys.
I think it's very important to discuss valuation, and how it's done with clients.
I agree that many sellers offering appraisals do so in an attempt to confuse consumers....present company excluded of course.

I feel strongly that a seller should provide a detailed explanation of what the purchase includes. This is a document that should be able to be used for the purposes of insuring the item.

The key is in the explanation given with the document.
 
As an aside and concurrent with my earlier points...

Why is it, that insurance companies actually find an Appraisal document to be more useful than a sales receipt (making an appraisal more helpful for a consumer looking to secure coverage)?

The answer is quite simple.

While a sales receipt correctly and appropriately reflects price for items sold, an appropriate appraisal document reflects actual value for items sold.

Insurance companies could care less about what the item cost, since their concern is to insure the item for its value.
Consequently, they place less emphasis on what the seller charged (bill of sale) and more emphasis on the items actual value (appraisal).

Again, It is our opinion that a seller should never be involved in issuing a value for merchanise they have sold and in any capacity.
 
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