Eskimo and Canadian Diamonds.

[daniel99]

Hi Everyone:

I saw this article today in the metro about Canada and Eskimo Diamonds. This article mentions that Canada is going to be world''s thirld largest producer by 2010. I thought Canada was already third in 2003. Anyone know more about this topic??

Here is the Article:

http://metropoint.metro.lu/20070112_Boston.pdf

 

[Adylon]

I know a lot about Canadian diamonds, what are your questions?

Eskimo diamonds are a brand. Actually I think the name Eskimo is in dispute by 2 brands, one is "Eskimo Arctic Ice" and the other is something else, I forget. There are lots of other brands as well. As far as I know there is only 1 brand that is certified by the Canadian government, and that is Polar Bear diamonds. With those diamonds, the government actually regulates their mining, cutting, etc... and gives a certificate indicating it''s a genuine Canadian diamond. All other Canadian branded diamonds are given a certificate of authenticity by the manufacturer, not the government.

Most Canadian brands (not Polar Bear) get their diamonds from CanadaMark, which is a subsidiary of BHP Billiton (one of the largest mining companies in the world). If you go to CanadaMarks''s website, you can see all the Canadian branded manufacturers they sell to. If you want to start your own brand of Canadian diamonds and buy directly from CanadaMark you need to have a contract to buy a lot of rough diamonds, so if you don''t sell them, you''ll go broke very fast

Debeer''s recently just expanded in Canada... they have 2 mines there now I believe, maybe 3. Debeer''s is becoming very agressive in their push into Canadian mining.

 

[daniel99]

My actual question was:

This article mentions that Canada is going to be world''s thirld largest producer by 2010. I thought Canada was already third in 2003. Also mentions that that US sellers are not regulated by law to prove the diamonds origin.

 

[Adylon]

Yes, there is a "Canadaian Code of Conduct" which states anyone that sells, cuts, manufactures diamonds and advertises them as "Canadian" must be able to prove the origin of any specific diamond at any time if asked by the government. This is through an arbitration process that any consumer can initiate, and the dealer, wholesaler, cutter, etc must comply with. Failure to provide the documents results in you being fined by the Canadian government or expelled from membership in the CCoC, and never allowed to advertise your diamonds as "Canadian" in origin again. When the seller is in the US, they are not bound by these regulations and so they don't have to prove anything to anyone.

As for what the capacity of diamonds is being unearthed in Canada, I guess it also depends on what metric you use. Are you using total carats of rough mined per year? $$ value of diamonds extracted, etc. I know Canada provides some of the largest, cleanest, whitest diamonds on earth now So 1 million carats from Canada has a lot more worth then 1 million carats from Africa. The quality of goods coming out of Canada far exceeds anywhere else currently. I've also read articles that say they currently provide something like 15-20% of the worldwide market of rough diamonds based on carats extracted, but on a $$ value basis that number could very well be double. And yes, I believe they are now the third major source of diamonds in the world.

 

[daniel99]

So does it make more sense to buy a Canadian Diamond from an Canadian Vendor, since they are punishable by law versus the States where they are not. Why doesn''t the American government initiate a similar program. Although it would be costly, it would be worth it.

 

[Adylon]

If you buy a polar bear or eskimo arctic ice or whatever diamond.... and you buy it from a US vendor, that''s not really a bad thing. Diamonds are traded worldwide, if you buy from a US retailer it doesn''t really matter as long as it comes with paperwork that is is a canadian diamond. All polar bear diamonds have a small polar bear graphic and serial number engraved on the girdle of the diamond. Same goes with most Canadian branded diamonds. It would be very rare and unusual for a legitimate diamond dealer in the US to sell you a Canadian branded diamond that''s not Canadian in origin and it would be very easy to check (just have the diamond appraised loose and the girdle inspected, and then contact the Canadian branded diamond company to confirm that the certificate provided by the US merchant is genuine). Whether or not you could have the merchant or diamond producer prove the diamond is genuine by use of the Canadian government to trace all the paperwork is another thing. This option is only availble to consumers that buy from a Canadian retailer and CCoC member. On the otherhand if Bob''s Diamondmart advertises all their diamonds are mined in Canada and they give you a certificate of authenticity stating this, I don''t think you can put much faith in their word if you know what I mean.

 

[Greatcall]

I read the article. It sounds interesting. I would definetly buy a Canadian Diamond (if that''s what you want) from a Canadian Vendor who belongs to Can Code of Diamond conduct. I researched it more and the code is very strict. Unlike the Kimberley Process. http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/html/EN_code.htm It''s almost 17 pages long. I don''t think any U.S vendor would go tto this extent to track their diamonds. Canadian companies as the article states can be punished severly. I guess it is also important on which brand you are looking to purchase.. Here are some brands Good Luck

http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/html/registry/EN_nonretailers.htm

www.eskimodiamonds.com
www.fabrikant.com
www.hrausa.com
www.hrausa.com
www.polarbeardiamond.com
www.polaricediamonds.com

www.regalimportsltd.com

www.riotintodiamonds.com

www.wdcgroup.com

 

[galeteia]

''Eskimo'' Diamonds? Up here, we''re taught that using that word is tantamount to calling an African-American the N-word. I''m shocked that that was chosen as a brand name. I wonder what the Inuit think of that?

 

[Greatcall]

I guess not. Ask the Edmonton Eskimo football team in the CFl (they have been around for baout 90 years) or Eskimo Pie ice cream Eskimo design eskimocandy.com etc...
The dictionary citations show that "Eskimo" is the lexically correct term for all the peoples of Eskimoan origin;

 

[galeteia]

Date: 1/13/2007 2:30:48 PM
Author: Greatcall
I guess not. Ask the Edmonton Eskimo football team in the CFl (they have been around for baout 90 years) or Eskimo Pie ice cream Eskimo design eskimocandy.com etc...

The dictionary citations show that ''Eskimo'' is the lexically correct term for all the peoples of Eskimoan origin;

And what were African-Americans referred to 90 years ago? ''Eskimo'' is a derogatory term that is very outdated, and up here it is considered very rude to use it.

 

[erica k]

(Correct me if I''m off-base):
As far as I understand, Eskimo is a term that includes people living in Siberia, Russia, Canada, Greenland and Alaska. Inuit refers to a subgroup of Eskimo people in Canada and Greenland and also their specific language subgroup. If I remember correctly from college anthropology courses, the term Eskimo was somehow construed as meaning "raw eat meater", which could, quite naturally, be seen as offensive (sometimes I think that it all depends on who is doing the naming and what they mean by it. e.g. the n-word can mean vastly different things depending on WHO is speaking and WHOM they''re referring to, as anyone who listens to popular music will notice). Therefore, most of those who speak Inuit prefer to be called Inuit, not Eskimo. Certainly there are good reasons for positioning oneself away from a term that is popularly perceived as derogatory. There are others who speak a different language and prefer to be called Eskimo (I think they''re Alaskan, not Canadian, so, different regions, too). The term Eskimo is also something that the French explorers "gave" to the people already living in northern North America before it was then named "Canada" et al. All of this name-calling and re-naming speaks to the still persistent issues of colonialism and the writing of history.

I think names are very powerful things, and if they want to be known as Inuit, then that''s fine. But, the dictionaries still stress that Eskimo is an overarching term that can be used to reference the larger group of people. Whether the term Eskimo is considered derogatory in this context, I dunno. It''s like the term Caucasian, which refers to the Caucasus people (central eastern Europe, mountain range, etc) but was also used by some Americans to express whiteness or European origins and has been slowly phased out in common usage.

Anyway! I have a Canadia diamond that I purchased from an American jeweler who is very active in promoting conflict-free mining and production in Africa and Burma. I heard that companies like Tiffany and DeBeers have been buying shares in Canadian companies, though, and the Kimberly Process, which has been touted as a guarantee to assuage consumer concerns, is self-regulated, so who knows whether promises are really being kept or they are truly held accountable. Also, many Canadian mined diamonds are cut and polished elsewhere, which could lead to concern over the ethics of diamonds. I think there is no magic solution to conflict-free diamonds because everything gets so entangled in the process. Canada definitely promotes itself as a producer of guaranteed conflict-free diamonds, but it seems from what I''ve read that not all Canadian diamonds are the same in terms of mining conditions (are the workers being exploited?), cutting, polishing, share-holders, etc.

None of this really has anything to do with the original question, I know! I''m really interested in etymology and the construction of identity/ethnicity, so I couldn''t resist replying to the last few posts.

 

[ezwinner701]

This may be a stupid question. which diamonds are better? from canada or south africa? and which are worth more?

 

[denverappraiser]

All other things being equal, a diamond with demonstrable paperwork from Canada will generally cost a bit more. Whether it’s worth more to you depends on what you count as valuable. For some that’s an absolute requirement while others count it as irrelevant packing materials.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[daniel99]

All other things being equal, a diamond with demonstrable paperwork from Canada will generally cost a bit more. Whether it’s worth more to you depends on what you count as valuable. For some that’s an absolute requirement while others count it as irrelevant packing materials.

What would you consider demonstrable paperwork?? If you read the Candian Diamonds Conduct the paper work for that it is pretty extensive. But there are only like 15 companies world wide that are part of this code. If the Code is initiated and enforced in Canada only, it is really useless for companies outside of Canada to be a part of it. Am I missing something here???

 

[grapegravity]

Well, I own a canadian diamond and it came with a governement of canada certificate stating it is mined, produced and cut in Canada. It also stated the original weight of the rough diamond and also the actual weight and specs of the diamond at it''s final finashed state... And also an image from gemprint... I hope this is the "demonstrable paperwork from Canada" that Neil mentioned in his reply...

 

[scarleta]

This is what I experienced trying to buy a Canadian diamond in CAnada.
1.Their cost is quite a bit more due to the cost of mining in severe weater conditions and mining season is shorter
2.You are paying higher price for the certification process ( it costs them money ) , which again increases diamond price
3.You can buy Canadian diamond cheaper if you buy it outside Canada ( basically it will not have a certificate and you really won't know for sure if it is Canadian.
Basically it is far more expensive and you can get far better stone if you pay for stone only and not the rest...

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 1/15/2007 3:03:51 PM
Author: daniel99
All other things being equal, a diamond with demonstrable paperwork from Canada will generally cost a bit more. Whether it’s worth more to you depends on what you count as valuable. For some that’s an absolute requirement while others count it as irrelevant packing materials.

What would you consider demonstrable paperwork?? If you read the Candian Diamonds Conduct the paper work for that it is pretty extensive. But there are only like 15 companies world wide that are part of this code. If the Code is initiated and enforced in Canada only, it is really useless for companies outside of Canada to be a part of it. Am I missing something here???

The Government of North West Territories issues a certificate for diamonds that meet their standards for Canadian origin and processing. That''s that paperwork I mean. The conduct paper has nothing to do with it directly although compliance with it may be one of the rules at the GNWT. I''m reasonably confident that one of the reasons for the code of conduct is to lay the groundwork so that other origin documents can get some market recognition but I haven''t seen it happen so far.

Again, whether you find it useful or valuable depends on what you consider to be important. Some people demand diamonds with the GNWT certification and are willing to pay extra to get it, others are not.

Here''s what the GNWT has to say about their program.
http://www.iti.gov.nt.ca/diamond/development.htm#market


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[niceice]

There are several diamond cutting firms producing diamonds under the CanadaMark Canada Mark registry program and the fact is that the CM registry system is traceable and verifiable through the Verify Tracking Number Page located on the CM web site regardless of whether the vendor is located in Canada, the United States or in another country.

We were working quite closely with a cutter through the CanadaMark program until recently when he elected not to work with CM any longer due to the higher cost per carat and registry costs... This is unfortunate because the production was top notch and people like the fact that the origin of the diamond rough can be tracked back to Canada. We have contacted all of the companies listed on the CanadaMark brands page and unfortunately they either prohibit internet sales and/or want to dictate the selling price of the diamond (at high retail which is not conducive to internet sales which are generally discounted) and/or the production quality does not meet our expectations for proportions (total depth, table, crown and pavilion angle combination) and/or the polish and symmetry grades are good / very good and not AGS Ideal or GIA Excellent. Here is an example of a recent offering that we received from one of the primary suppliers listed on the CanadaMark registered brands page:

Quite simply, this is not the type of production that we are looking for. If anybody knows of a company producing "tight" AGS Ideal or GIA EX type goods with crown angles in the range of 34.3 - 34.8 degrees and pavilion angles of 40.6 - 40.9 degrees with less than half a degree variance in the high and low ranges with AGS Ideal or GIA EX polish, symmetry and proportions - by all means, please point them in our direction because we''d love to be able to offer our clients a steady supply of CanadaMark registered diamonds again

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[denverappraiser]

Like everything else, the diamond business continues to evolve. Manufacturers strive to make what people want and compete with each other to offer a better job of it. Retailers, wholesalers and others are competing with each other to bring it to you. Obviously, this sort of thing is not a free service and the end consumer is the one who has to foot the bill. That’s just basic economics. This leads to a balancing act that behind the scenes that will be the real success or failure of the programs. The miners and cutters are required to pay fees both in the form of cash and in allowing delays and outside intrusion in their businesses to participate. They put up with this because they think it will help their businesses to sell more stones at higher prices than they would otherwise get if they didn’t do it. Todd’s experience would suggest that for the ‘super ideal’ market, manufacturers are deciding against it, at least for now. These aren’t the sorts of decisions that get made lightly and my guess is that they’ve discovered that customers demand documented Canadian origin for primarily political, not gemological reasons. They can get a premium price for Canadian paper or they can get the premium for superb cutting, but apparently it’s difficult to get both.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[grapegravity]

FYI, here''s a site that sells canadian diamond with AGS0 ideal cut..

http://www.tundradiamond.com/ideal-cut-diamonds.html

 

[solange]

I recently read an article--I think it might have been in the Wall Street Journal--that Tiffany has heavily invested in diamond mining in Canada and that they are also doing cutting there. If this is the case, I assume that many of the diamonds sold by Tiffany are from Canada.

 

[CaptAubrey]

One little thing to add here:

There is a conflict between US and Canadian law in this area that consumers need to be aware of. The Canadian government has, understandably, been very protective of "Canadian diamonds," and one can be confident of getting the real thing when buying in Canada, or when buying a diamond in the US that has the official Canadian marks and paperwork (because these marks are also protected in the US, albeit by trademark and unfair competition law rather than specific legislation, as in Canada).

However, the law in the US is that a "country of origin" designation must be the country in which the products were manufactured--the origin of the raw materials is irrelevant. For diamonds, that means the country of origin is where the rough was polished; where it was mined does not matter. Thus, it is perfectly legal for a US vendor to sell "Canadian diamonds" that were polished in Canada using rough from somewhere else. (This is also why you can still legally buy Burmese rubies, polished in Thailand, in the US.) The degree to which this latter production is occurring is a matter of dispute, but it does seem to be happening.

IOW, if you want a true Canadian-mined diamond, you need to buy one of the officially documented stones.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/18/2007 3:01:42 PM
Author: CaptAubrey
One little thing to add here:

There is a conflict between US and Canadian law in this area that consumers need to be aware of. The Canadian government has, understandably, been very protective of ''Canadian diamonds,'' and one can be confident of getting the real thing when buying in Canada, or when buying a diamond in the US that has the official Canadian marks and paperwork (because these marks are also protected in the US, albeit by trademark and unfair competition law rather than specific legislation, as in Canada).

However, the law in the US is that a ''country of origin'' designation must be the country in which the products were manufactured--the origin of the raw materials is irrelevant. For diamonds, that means the country of origin is where the rough was polished; where it was mined does not matter. Thus, it is perfectly legal for a US vendor to sell ''Canadian diamonds'' that were polished in Canada using rough from somewhere else. (This is also why you can still legally buy Burmese rubies, polished in Thailand, in the US.) The degree to which this latter production is occurring is a matter of dispute, but it does seem to be happening.

IOW, if you want a true Canadian-mined diamond, you need to buy one of the officially documented stones.

Good point Capt.

Yes - origin in gems is different to origin in manufactured goods.
Yet brand origin can take precedent - eg Tiffany = Tiffany, no matter if the goods are made in the Carribean, or now in their Indian factory. And their diamond factory Solange is in Vietnam.

Yet we debate names - like Pariaba - describes a rare blue tourmaline that was first found in Pariaba in South America - but now that it has been found in Africa - it has been decided by some orgs that the stone is still Pariaba even when it does not come from Pariaba.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/17/2007 11:30:56 PM
Author: solange
I recently read an article--I think it might have been in the Wall Street Jpurnal--that Tiffany has heavily 8nvested in diamond mining in Canada and that they are also doing cutting there. If this is the case, I assume that many of the diamonds sold by Tiffany are from Canada.

I think one of the "main" reasons Tiffany bought into Canadian Aber was:
A huge rough producer approached Tiffany''s with an offer to joint operations in regards to Diamonds.
Tiffany was not interested in a joint venture with that Huge rough producer.

So i am assuming the next smart step on Tiffany''s behalf was to make sure they will not be dependant on anyones diamonds, and that they will own their own mines.

But it was mainly a matter of timing. George Kunz (Tiffany''s famed mineralogist)had a vision and strongly believed in the early 1900 that Canada possesses Diamond deposits.

I think that Tiffany''s sold their interest in Aber last year if i am noy mistaken, but according to my info. they still have the first refusal on the very high quality rough that comes out of the ground.

 

[solange]

The article I read about Tiffany investing in Canadian diamond mines and doing cutting there was very recent--perhaps two or three months ago. I believe it was after the Aber deal. I am sorry I did not save the article but I did post the information on Pricescope at the time and I will look for it under my postings.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/18/2007 6:56:38 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 1/17/2007 11:30:56 PM
Author: solange
I recently read an article--I think it might have been in the Wall Street Jpurnal--that Tiffany has heavily 8nvested in diamond mining in Canada and that they are also doing cutting there. If this is the case, I assume that many of the diamonds sold by Tiffany are from Canada.

I think one of the ''main'' reasons Tiffany bought into Canadian Aber was:
A huge rough producer approached Tiffany''s with an offer to joint operations in regards to Diamonds.
Tiffany was not interested in a joint venture with that Huge rough producer.

So i am assuming the next smart step on Tiffany''s behalf was to make sure they will not be dependant on anyones diamonds, and that they will own their own mines.

But it was mainly a matter of timing. George Kunz (Tiffany''s famed mineralogist)had a vision and strongly believed in the early 1900 that Canada possesses Diamond deposits.

I think that Tiffany''s sold their interest in Aber last year if i am noy mistaken, but according to my info. they still have the first refusal on the very high quality rough that comes out of the ground.

Aber owns 40% of DiaVik Riotinto owns 60%
Aber owns most of Harry Winston and I believe is buying the rest.
Tiffany are one of Abers clients - but they only buy from the 40% of the mine that Aber controls, and one might expect that infact HW gets the cream of the cream

A quote from Rueters
http://stocks.us.reuters.com/stocks/fullDescription.asp?symbol=ABER.O&WTmodLOC=L2-LeftNav-8.5-FullDescription

Aber markets its share of production from the Diavik Mine through two sales channels: directly to Tiffany & Co. and to the international diamond market through wholly owned subsidiaries operating in Antwerp, Belgium and Mumbai, India. The Company''s clients are based in the diamond cutting and manufacturing centers of India, Israel, the United States and Belgium. Mining segment sales to third parties, including Tiffany & Co., accounted for 62% of Aber''s consolidated revenues for the fiscal year ended January 31, 2006 (fiscal 2005). In the year ended January 31, 2005, mining segment sales to third parties, including Tiffany & Co., accounted for 66% of consolidated revenues.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/21/2007 12:18:28 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/18/2007 6:56:38 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 1/17/2007 11:30:56 PM
Author: solange
I recently read an article--I think it might have been in the Wall Street Jpurnal--that Tiffany has heavily 8nvested in diamond mining in Canada and that they are also doing cutting there. If this is the case, I assume that many of the diamonds sold by Tiffany are from Canada.

I think one of the ''main'' reasons Tiffany bought into Canadian Aber was:
A huge rough producer approached Tiffany''s with an offer to joint operations in regards to Diamonds.
Tiffany was not interested in a joint venture with that Huge rough producer.

So i am assuming the next smart step on Tiffany''s behalf was to make sure they will not be dependant on anyones diamonds, and that they will own their own mines.

But it was mainly a matter of timing. George Kunz (Tiffany''s famed mineralogist)had a vision and strongly believed in the early 1900 that Canada possesses Diamond deposits.

I think that Tiffany''s sold their interest in Aber last year if i am noy mistaken, but according to my info. they still have the first refusal on the very high quality rough that comes out of the ground.

Aber owns 40% of DiaVik Riotinto owns 60%
Aber owns most of Harry Winston and I believe is buying the rest.
Tiffany are one of Abers clients - but they only buy from the 40% of the mine that Aber controls, and one might expect that infact HW gets the cream of the cream

A quote from Rueters
http://stocks.us.reuters.com/stocks/fullDescription.asp?symbol=ABER.O&WTmodLOC=L2-LeftNav-8.5-FullDescription

Aber markets its share of production from the Diavik Mine through two sales channels: directly to Tiffany & Co. and to the international diamond market through wholly owned subsidiaries operating in Antwerp, Belgium and Mumbai, India. The Company''s clients are based in the diamond cutting and manufacturing centers of India, Israel, the United States and Belgium. Mining segment sales to third parties, including Tiffany & Co., accounted for 62% of Aber''s consolidated revenues for the fiscal year ended January 31, 2006 (fiscal 2005). In the year ended January 31, 2005, mining segment sales to third parties, including Tiffany & Co., accounted for 66% of consolidated revenues.

You are right Garry, Aber owns 100% of HW today.
But Tiffany still gets the cream of the rough from Aber..., i see their rejected rough..., and it is still considered the "Creme de la Creme"!!!
I think today Tiffany''s quality control is a bit stricter than HW''s.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/21/2007 4:45:33 AM
Author: DiaGem
You are right Garry, Aber owns 100% of HW today.
But Tiffany still gets the cream of the rough from Aber..., i see their rejected rough..., and it is still considered the ''Creme de la Creme''!!!
I think today Tiffany''s quality control is a bit stricter than HW''s.

I can not comment on Tifany, but I have seen a proportion range chart for many shapes from HW and I hope it was only used as a first pass rejection screen.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/21/2007 6:27:23 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/21/2007 4:45:33 AM
Author: DiaGem
You are right Garry, Aber owns 100% of HW today.
But Tiffany still gets the cream of the rough from Aber..., i see their rejected rough..., and it is still considered the ''Creme de la Creme''!!!
I think today Tiffany''s quality control is a bit stricter than HW''s.

I can not comment on Tifany, but I have seen a proportion range chart for many shapes from HW and I hope it was only used as a first pass rejection screen.

I dont know..., i have not seen that chart.