engagement ring price check

[wyered1]

You are way hung up on the "trade in value" of your old stone. Based on the market price of the new stone, they are giving you exactly nothing for your old one. I have already demonstrated that you should at least break even or come out ahead if you go on your own.

If you can point me to a diamond of equal value that gets me out the door at 12k I'd be totally sold. I just haven't been able to get close to that, even online only shops. Keep in mind the ring I want (I'm flexible on brands) will run about 3k. Is the above diamond equal? Because I don't know enough to know, but it appears it's not.

Also. I won't have the upgrade of 15k later. And literally the only thing I can do with that old diamond is buy a Rolex for my dad at the end of the year with it on trade. Or pawn it for god knows what. Frustrated.

 

[doberman]

Yes, I know they screwed me in 2005.

And they'll be happy to do it again. They are not giving you money for your old ring - they have inflated the cost of the diamond, to make you think you are getting a trade-in. The end result is you're overpaying for the new stone and giving them your old ring. It annoys me when some jewelers think customers are so gullible..

 

[wyered1]

Yes, I know they screwed me in 2005.

And they'll be happy to do it again. They are not giving you money for your old ring - they have inflated the cost of the diamond, to make you think you are getting a trade-in. The end result is you're overpaying for the new stone and giving them your old ring. It annoys me when some jewelers think customers are so gullible..

The question is HOW MUCH they inflated the price so I know what I'm getting for the trade in, because I don't think it is worth $6700 anyway. I have not found a diamond of equal value for 15,000-6700 = 8,300. So... I'm getting SOMETHING for this diamond as trade. What would be the value of the diamond they are selling me? If it is $9k, then i'm getting $700 for the trade. The closest thing I can find to the diamond they are selling me is:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.40-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-270410

and as the first reply posted: http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4298300-1.40-carat-Round-diamond-G-color-SI2-Clarity.aspx?sku=4298300&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

However the James Allen diamond is .02 ct smaller (negligible), but it is a full tenth of a mm smaller in the width which will make it appear a noticeable amount smaller in comparison, correct? The one from B2C is even narrower, and doesn't even have a photo of the actual diamond. Also, the HCA tool, while excellent on all, seems to be a little better on the one from the local jeweler. I also suspect there is more noticeable inclusions in the ones online vs the one in the store. I've been pretty good at noticing inclusions in diamonds, but in the one locally they are all white and I couldn't see them with a naked eye. So, if that makes the local one resale valued at $10,500 and I'm willing to pay $500 for the convenience of seeing the diamond in person before buying, and $300 since it comes with a $15k trade in value then that equates to me getting $3000 for the trade. Which is probably in the area of resale on that diamond online. Maybe I inflated the price of the diamond, and it is actually valued at $9.5k. Then I'm getting $2k on trade.

It's probably something like this (going off the appraisal info):
http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=15489804&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

or:
http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=67543664&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE&utm_source=PriceScope

So IF the value of this diamond they are selling me at $15k is actually worth me buying at $11,500, then I'm getting my money's worth by using the trade (Equal value as to what I could realistically re-sell quickly for, ignoring the fact I was screwed over as a younger idiot in '05). That is the question I need answered. Some people say the cut on the new diamond is lacking for reasons that are above me. Everything has checked out that I know how to do. How is the table angle being bad or affecting the value, is the table angle in the James Allen example better? worse? I know this diamond inside the store as well as outside in shade and sunlight looked much better than previous ones graded by EGL he showed me, but that's all I know...

I would love for someone to tell me where this line of thinking is erroneous. The fact is I have not seen one post, or one diamond in my search, that equates me being able to put a diamond with the same specs or better in a similar platinum ring ($3k), plus tax, and out the door for 11,000 dollars. And if I use only "in-house" searches it becomes a much much bigger difference. So I need help figuring out the actual value of the diamond in question, which will answer how much I'm effectively getting for the trade.

Also, I have set an appointment to see what Whitefish can do for on Monday. (Couldn't reach Brian Gavin Diamonds) I picked a couple on the website to see that seem to be superior to the one in question, however the problem is I can't (not smart budgeting anyway) part with that much money right now as I'm also spending $5k or more to take my BTB to Europe in May. I can do as much as maybe $14k total out of my pocket, but I can't do $12k for just the diamond as it seems that's what it takes for a superior diamond that is "in-shop" and has a upgrade policy. I can find some better deals on the "Virtual Selection" types, but they come with no guarantee from WhiteFlash and BGD. That is unless WhiteFlash is inclined to take the old diamond off my hands in order to make the deal work, which I'm more than open to.

If someone can give me their opinion on the actual value for the diamond in the OP it would help a lot. The generic statements about them giving me nothing for the trade in aren't accurate or constructive unless the diamonds value is indeed $8k, which I haven't been able to find any evidence to back that up.

Much appreciated in advance.

 

[doberman]

I would love for someone to tell me where this line of thinking is erroneous.

I understand your reasoning, but I don't like the end result, i.e. a sub-par diamond and the loss of your old diamond. I would rather pay a little more and get a much cleaner better cut diamond *and* get to keep my old diamond to sell privately. But to each her own.

 

[wyered1]

I would love for someone to tell me where this line of thinking is erroneous.

I understand your reasoning, but I don't like the end result, i.e. a sub-par diamond and the loss of your old diamond. I would rather pay a little more and get a much cleaner better cut diamond *and* get to keep my old diamond to sell privately. But to each her own.

Ok. Sounds great. How much is a little more? 2 grand more (20%)? Done. What diamond is better that gets me out the door at $13k? I just haven't seen anyone post a better diamond that accomplishes that. I'm seeing diamonds that are marginally better at 13k alone. That's an extra 5 or 6 grand by time it's done. Explain? Have an example?

 

[JulieN]

1) make an appt with BGD or Whiteflash, they are in your area and very highly regarded. I don't know if BGD has anything in stock that fits your budget right now, but you will at least be better educated, and maybe can do the setting there, who knows, you might end up loving J color or blue fluorescence or something. Bring in your old rock and ask if it is a recut candidate.

2) post an example of the setting you want.

3) post your hard, MAXIMUM budget and minimum Cs, sounds like you are ok with 1.4 I color eye-clean I1 based on your posts?

 

[wyered1]

1) Already have an appointment with Whiteflash Monday.

2) http://www.ajaffe.com/m/details.php?title=classic-french-pave-top-and-profile-ring-mes307&lat1=&lon1=#.UxvaUVDnbqA

In Platinum. I particularly like the setting on this showing the whole diamond. Brand has no importance to me. Similar ring was 2700 in platinum from Scott kay.

3) Maximum budget... let's say 13k out of pocket. With or without trade. 1.4 carat minimum. Prefer 1.5. Eye clean is required. Would like vs2. Would like G (or better) color. H and maybe I are ok. And cut must be AGS 0 or equivalent. A better than average excellent cut in GIA. GIA or AGS also required.

 

[JulieN]

The all important budget?

 

[wyered1]

The all important budget?

Sorry. Was in process of edit when you posted. On phone now.

 

[JulieN]

Quick price search on that setting is over 4.3K in Pt. Is that the price you were quoted?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am glad you are going to WF. I'd go ahead and put this one on hold, just to make sure it doesn't sell before then.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3048660.htm

This is a 1.5 ct H VS2 for $13,500. Do you see that the stone you were looking at is nowhere near worth what this diamond is worth? At most, it is worth $10k for the retail mark-up which is $500 more than the James Allen stone. James Allen is making a profit and the jeweler can make $500 more than James Allen would (or $1000 more than B2C Jewels).

You can probably get a couple thousand selling your old diamond to a random jeweler. Most of them will buy old diamonds. Then you are down to $11,500 and have a FAR better diamond than the 1.4 G SI2. And if the day comes that you ever do want to trade up, you'll have fair prices again on the trade. Free yourself from the situation you are in. You can get something for the old diamond. I sold my old diamond studs to a local jeweler and bought great ones from WF, as a matter of fact!

(Please look at WF settings while you are there. They carry many designers and it is FAR easier to have them set the stone if you buy a diamond there.)

 

[wyered1]

Quick price search on that setting is over 4.3K in Pt. Is that the price you were quoted?

The actual one I was getting was from Scott Kay but was extremely similar. I'm not concerned with the brand and it's a pretty common design. The jeweler said they could use a setting like this one as well. 2700 or 2800 was the price... plus tax.

I've seen the one from A. Jaffe and I like it a lot but if changing brands saves my budget, so be it. But yes, 4.3k is probably what it would take for that particular one. My hope is when upgrading she will like the ring enough to stay with it and upgrade diamond. So I don't want to skimp too much.

 

[wyered1]

I am glad you are going to WF. I'd go ahead and put this one on hold, just to make sure it doesn't sell before then.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3048660.htm

This is a 1.5 ct H VS2 for $13,500. Do you see that the stone you were looking at is nowhere near worth what this diamond is worth? At most, it is worth $10k for the retail mark-up which is $500 more than the James Allen stone. James Allen is making a profit and the jeweler can make $500 more than James Allen would (or $1000 more than B2C Jewels).

You can probably get a couple thousand selling your old diamond to a random jeweler. Most of them will buy old diamonds. Then you are down to $11,500 and have a FAR better diamond than the 1.4 G SI2. And if the day comes that you ever do want to trade up, you'll have fair prices again on the trade. Free yourself from the situation you are in. You can get something for the old diamond. I sold my old diamond studs to a local jeweler and bought great ones from WF, as a matter of fact!

(Please look at WF settings while you are there. They carry many designers and it is FAR easier to have them set the stone if you buy a diamond there.)

Yes, I agree it is without question better. I actually think I requested to see this one Monday.

The price I see is 14,275. And if I see an offer for them to bring that one in my budget, within 2k of the other diamond and out the door with a trade for 13k I'd jump on it but I don't think that's going to be possible. I'll ask of course but since they are asking 14.2 and I need diamond+ring+tax at 13k... I have doubts.

 

[JulieN]

This is just an example of something you could go with:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.40-carat-h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-282622

http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/pave/platinum-rounded-pave-engagement-solitaire-item-8162

I figure you should have a good number of people willing to buy the old one at 2000.

 

[wyered1]

This is just an example of something you could go with:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.40-carat-h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-282622

http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/pave/platinum-rounded-pave-engagement-solitaire-item-8162

I figure you should have a good number of people willing to buy the old one at 2000.

While I'd totally give this diamond a shot, I kinda think that diamond might not be as good of a cut as the one in question. Much higher HCA score and not a candidate for AGS0 grade. One step worse in color and one better in clarity. Both should be eye clean however. I would guess it is worth less than the local diamond, but not by much.

The ring, setting yes, side stones, no. Are they even there? No bling at all. I'd have to stick with the $2700 one, because that is downright ugly IMO. But I get your point.

So it's at 13k. But better? No. So if I get 2k for the trade, I spend the same and have a lesser ring.

 

[JulieN]

The cut of this one is better than the cut of your G. It is DEFINITELY in range for AGS 0, I'm not sure why you think it isn't? Furthermore, an H SI1 no fluoro is priced higher than a G SI2 with medium fluoro, all else equal.

The setting... eh, that is just an idea if you want to get away with something suuuper cheap, I'd say 2.5K minimum for a setting like what you are thinking.

 

[JulieN]

You spend the same and get a better diamond.

SI2 is a price cliff, H SI1 for a G SI2 is not an even trade. Blue fluoro knocks it down a little more.

 

[wyered1]

Maybe this is what I need to learn. Why is it better? They are graded the same. I've been told from numerous sources all over the net and in the store you kinda want to say at a depth below 62. That one is above. And the HCA cut analysis tool rates that one as a 2.7 I think, outside of the excellent rating and according to that plot, it is outside of the AGS0 range, while the local diamond is rated at 1.3 and inside the mark, and I confirmed this with my own eyes and neither of us has seen the James Allen diamond to dispute the HCA tool. I actually thought it looked better in the store before using the HCA tool. The jeweler helping me had never heard of the HCA tool, but it actually represented the price difference between 3 diamonds he showed me with similar specs. So I feel like it is at least some form of a guide, albeit I realize it's only a guide.

So maybe that is why I'm not understanding you. What is it that you know that I don't about the cuts. Why is the James Allen better? And I'd like to know if this is a personal preference with a certain number or if there is factually better numbers on the James Allen diamond, and what use is the HCA tool if you can know sight unseen that a higher rated diamond looks better than a lower rated one all other things equal.

 

[wyered1]

You spend the same and get a better diamond.

SI2 is a price cliff, H SI1 for a G SI2 is not an even trade. Blue fluoro knocks it down a little more.

I can go with that. But if both are eye clean, I'm more worried about which cut is superior. "Cut is king" as I've recently seen on the BGD website I was referred to. Which one looks better. I'm not solely looking at it from a grade war as I understand there is some error in grading anyway. Clarity ratings for instance do not have rules that are 100 percent lined out. It could vary by grader and/or grading location.

So ok. Bump toward value for James Allen in clarity. But I still need to know why the far more important cut is better in the James Allen diamond to say the diamond as a whole is superior.

 

[JulieN]

The AGS 0 box on the HCA thing is very conservative, it is very easy to get AGS 0 outside of that box. You can search the many threads that say something akin to "high HCA, but AGS 0?" Also HCA accuracy is not very good using GIA's very rounded numbers.

The reason why the G is probably (not definitely) not as good as the H is because of the large table. While you can definitely get great combos that are tightly cut with large tables, you'd have to show me a picture of it first before I'd believe that it is as well cut as the H. A lot of times you get large tables is because the cutter is trying to maximize the rough and start playing with the variation of the angles of the faceting. So, yeah, me looking at a video on JA against nothing other than a GIA report that says 59/33/41? That IS a decent combo, but it is commonly messed up, too. I'm going to go with the excellent looking one that I can see, and can get an Ideal Scope for.

 

[wyered1]

The AGS 0 box on the HCA thing is very conservative, it is very easy to get AGS 0 outside of that box. You can search the many threads that say something akin to "high HCA, but AGS 0?" Also HCA accuracy is not very good using GIA's very rounded numbers.

The reason why the G is probably (not definitely) not as good as the H is because of the large table. While you can definitely get great combos that are tightly cut with large tables, you'd have to show me a picture of it first before I'd believe that it is as well cut as the H. A lot of times you get large tables is because the cutter is trying to maximize the rough and start playing with the variation of the angles of the faceting. So, yeah, me looking at a video on JA against nothing other than a GIA report that says 59/33/41? That IS a decent combo, but it is commonly messed up, too. I'm going to go with the excellent looking one that I can see, and can get an Ideal Scope for.

Well obviously try and look at it from my point of view. I held one in my hand and looked at it with different types of scopes and with a naked eye for a solid 2 hours yesterday. The other is on a website. It does look good on the website, but it's only one view. I had the other one in the store as well as shade outside and in direct sunlight.

So your logic that you'd go with the one you've seen would tell me I should follow suit and go with the one I've seen.

Also. I was comparing the diamond to a VS2 1.5ct G diamond with a 20k price tag on it with a 0.8 HCA rating and I could BARELY tell the difference in the store and literally could not tell the difference outside. Including size. Probably due to the larger table.

I could obviously see the difference with a 10 magnifier though.

 

[JulieN]

Let's just put it this way: I've been on PS for almost a decade. I can quickly check out diamonds on JA's website at approximately 30/minute depending on my Internet connection. Photography like WF/GOG or video with lighting like JA's is far more discriminating than jewelery store lighting/shade/direct sunlight. The H is definitely a cut way above the average, as are the WF and Good Old Gold ones that diamondseeker posted for you.

 

[wyered1]

Let's just put it this way: I've been on PS for almost a decade. I can quickly check out diamonds on JA's website at approximately 30/minute depending on my Internet connection. Photography like WF/GOG or video with lighting like JA's is far more discriminating than jewelery store lighting/shade/direct sunlight. The H is definitely a cut way above the average, as are the WF and Good Old Gold ones that diamondseeker posted for you.

I don't doubt your skills at all. Your involvement and experience has not gone un-noticed. That does seem like an incredibly biased judgment however, not to offend you. I am listening and considering. But one post will tell me to use HCA as a cut guide, you are telling me to ignore it simply because you like the photography of James Allen's website over in person viewing.

Besides the point. James Allen most likely won't be giving me anything for my diamond. So I'd have to find a buyer. Time is money. Now. I could order it, and compare it to the one in the store to see which is better. So that's worth something.

If I'm not totally sold by what WF can offer on Monday, I may order that diamond for comparison. If nothing else I can attempt to use it as a negotiating tool to get them to lower their price. They won't be threatened by an online listing however.

 

[JulieN]

Here's one, very close numbers to yours, nice cut: http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4627561-1.40-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-clarity.aspx

So the G should not be more than this. So say around 9.3K for the G, plus another 2.7K for the setting, plus tax is 13K. You sell your old one for somewhere between 2K and 4K, depending on how nice it is and how quickly you want to sell. So we're at the most 11K, possibly less. This is why you're not stuck with this jeweler because of the trade-in. You could put that toward the Rolex.

 

[JulieN]

I don't doubt your skills at all. Your involvement and experience has not gone un-noticed. That does seem like an incredibly biased judgment however, not to offend you. I am listening and considering. But one post will tell me to use HCA as a cut guide, you are telling me to ignore it simply because you like the photography of James Allen's website over in person viewing.

Of course it is incredibly biased. I'm biased towards information. The only information we have on your stone is the GIA report, from which we can get an HCA score. And HCA contains less information than a photo from WF/GOG or a video from JA. If there were more information, we'd be getting somewhere.

When a newbie comes in asking about a jeweler who keeps showing EGL and SI2 stones, a GIA report with a diamond that doesn't have typical Tolk-style proportions, inflated prices and a customer who feels locked in because of a trade, on an original stone that is an EGL SI3 with whatever cut.... well, we've just seen it so many times before, the knee-jerk reaction is to find the quickest way out of the mess: cut the old jeweler and go with a PS vendor. Most people would rather choose the known than the unknown; you know what you have in your hand, you don't know online stones look like. PSers don't know what you have, we can only see what's online.

I will say that your deal is not terribly bad, it seems. If you read the thread from the beginning, I thought it was 15K for the stone, or 13.5K after trade-in, but actually we are at 11K for stone and platinum pave designer setting. Big difference.

 

[wyered1]

Here's one, very close numbers to yours, nice cut: http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4627561-1.40-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-clarity.aspx

So the G should not be more than this. So say around 9.3K for the G, plus another 2.7K for the setting, plus tax is 13K. You sell your old one for somewhere between 2K and 4K, depending on how nice it is and how quickly you want to sell. So we're at the most 11K, possibly less. This is why you're not stuck with this jeweler because of the trade-in. You could put that toward the Rolex.

Absolutely this could be worth a shot. As well as the James Allen if I can fit it in 13k without trade. The unattractive part is selling the old diamond myself. I would probably just take their 6700 trade value toward a Rolex later rather than sell it. I'd also have to view this in person to make sure it's ok. But worth it. I'd come out 4k ahead in the long run if the diamonds in fact look the same.

Still 2 Grand extra out of the old pocket right now for the same or very similar product but I do see your point in trying to save the EGL for use later. If I only get 2k for it I would just save myself the trouble since the money came out the same.

The old diamond really isn't bad. It's in a setting that also cost me over 2k. But yellow gold which isn't popular. (I liked it) It's biggest strike I think is the EGL report. SI3 is scary but I don't see inclusions. Who knows.

 

[wyered1]

Here's one, very close numbers to yours, nice cut: http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4627561-1.40-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-SI1-clarity.aspx

So the G should not be more than this. So say around 9.3K for the G, plus another 2.7K for the setting, plus tax is 13K. You sell your old one for somewhere between 2K and 4K, depending on how nice it is and how quickly you want to sell. So we're at the most 11K, possibly less. This is why you're not stuck with this jeweler because of the trade-in. You could put that toward the Rolex.

Absolutely this could be worth a shot. As well as the James Allen if I can fit it in 13k without trade. The unattractive part is selling the old diamond myself. I would probably just take their 6700 trade value toward a Rolex later rather than sell it. I'd also have to view this in person to make sure it's ok. But worth it. I'd come out 4k ahead in the long run if the diamonds in fact look the same.

Still 2 Grand extra out of the old pocket right now for the same or very similar product but I do see your point in trying to save the EGL for use later. If I only get 2k for it I would just save myself the trouble since the money came out the same.

The old diamond really isn't bad. It's in a setting that also cost me over 2k. But yellow gold which isn't popular. (I liked it) It's biggest strike I think is the EGL report. SI3 is scary but I don't see inclusions. Who knows.

 

[wyered1]

Yeah I was a little confused about how all that worked myself. I also have to keep in mind I knew they would never be able to beat the price of ALL online options. It's just impossible for them to. But I wanted to see if I was getting robbed because I know I did in 2k5.

I have a decent idea now. I might be able to get them down some more or better yet WF may find a better solution. We will see.

 

[doberman]

I see some selections on WF that would appear to meet your criteria - if your criteria for the diamond is apx 13k. I didn't realize that the price you discussed initially included a particular setting. I second the idea of looking on WF for a setting that is similar. You always run a risk when someone other than the diamond seller sets your stone. Have you thought about being open to H color? Generally I don't see yellow in GIA/AGS H diamonds, and it would knock the price back a bit.

I will be interested to hear how your WF experience goes.