Engagement ring help needed - 1.5, G, SI1 Diamond

[mike899]

PROPORTIONS:

Depth: 64.0%
Table: 59%
Crown Angle: 36.0°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 41.8°
Pavilion Depth: 44.5%
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Slightly Thick, Faceted (4.5%)
Culet: None

 

[ChrisES]

So, HCA is a stone selection / rejection tool that is designed to weed out stones with poor light performance based on the average numbers for the stone.

In general, if you have an HCA score of 2.0 or less, you have a 95% chance of having a good-performing diamond.

However, not all stones under 2.0 look good, and not all over 2.0 look bad. Nor is a smaller number strictly better. Many PS posters prefer stones in the 1.0-2.0 range to the <1.0 range. I've seen more than a couple people post good stones in the 2.0-3.0 range. I myself have purchased a GIA "very good" in the mid-3.0-4.0 range.

However, 5.5 is a big number. Based on price and HCA together, I would be worried about your diamond. There is a small chance that you are just very very lucky, but I would need to see good photographic evidence to believe it.

What's the story with the money you have down? If you decide you don't want the stone, can you get a full refund? What about your budget? You mentioned being willing to spend an extra 5K to get something nice, if you're willing to go over what you've spent posters here can definitely help you find an absolutely top-notch stone.

I also want to mention that it is not necessarily the case that your jeweler is trying to take advantage of you. The vast majority of diamond consumers are poorly-informed about real cut quality, and a lot of jewelers don't prioritize it when selecting and selling diamonds. For a lower-quality cut, you'd have gotten a very fair price. And your guy gave you very good advice when he steered you away from EGL. Maybe he would be willing to work with you to find a better option? (And don't shop by HCA alone - you should try to get idealscope or ASET images of stones you're interested in, and if your jeweler can't get them for you you can buy your own idealscope for about $25 and take it in to look at loose stones.

 

[ChrisES]

PROPORTIONS:

Depth: 64.0%
Table: 59%
Crown Angle: 36.0°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 41.8°
Pavilion Depth: 44.5%
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Slightly Thick, Faceted (4.5%)
Culet: None

I would absolutely recommend against buying this stone. This is what is known as a "steep/deep" stone because of its large crown and pavilion angles. The stone will look dark and have reduced sparkle. It also has a thick girdle. In short, you are getting a stone that a) has poor light performance AND b) has more depth for its diameter than better cut stones, meaning that you are paying more for a stone that faces up smaller. If you want a well-cut stone of the same diameter, you can probably get it without having to pay much more at all, because you will drop under 1.5 carats.

 

[mike899]

ChrisES, thanks for the advice.

I have put down 2k, IDK what the process would be for getting it back. I am going to look at the final set next week, my only option is to play it off like its not "the one" and go off his reaction. Maybe he will say 'if you don't like it, no problem you can have your deposit back" or "we can look at something else"

10k is pretty much my budget, i don't want to go over.
But i think i might be much more satisfied with a perfectly cut 1 carat, if it is going outshine this diamond.

So is this diamond pretty much garbage?

 

[ChrisES]

Can't say it's definitely "garbage" without seeing it, but I don't think I'd buy it, so I guess so?

As for the 2K, that was one reason I suggested maybe buying something better from the same guy. But I don't have any experience with those sorts of negotiations. Maybe you can look at it at the setting and say, huh, the stone looks dark now that it's set.

Honestly, for 10k you can probably find a good stone over 1 carat, but I am not the best at online diamond searching, so I hope other posters will weigh in.

If you're OK with SI1 though, for example, here are two spectacular cuts that are only just over your budget:

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.227-H-SI1-Round-Diamond-AGS-104055873009

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/Diamonds/diamond-details/1.230-G-SI1-round-Diamond-AGS-104052883016

(note that both have a 34.8 crown angle and a 40.7 pavilion angle - those aren't the only good combinations out there, but both numbers are a lot lower than on the stone you have the deposit on)

There are other PS vendors that might be able to find you something a bit cheaper.

 

[mike899]

So if I go back there, and attempt to get a better diamond from the same guy, obviously I can't be entering the % in this site real time.

What am I looking for exactly on each report?

any advice from anyone on how to get the deposit back would be great.

 

[yssie]

PROPORTIONS:

Depth: 64.0%
Table: 59%
Crown Angle: 36.0°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 41.8°
Pavilion Depth: 44.5%
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Slightly Thick, Faceted (4.5%)
Culet: None

Age of report?


Agree w/ Chris' very fair and balanced appraisal - that pav angle is very concerning, that + crown + girdle (though girdle by itself is fine) is the reason for the depth - I would not recommend this RB.

True, you can't take the HCA into the store with you (unless there's an app for that?) - what you can do is limit yourself to GIA EX only. Yes, you will be missing out on a few beautiful GIA VGs, but you've got to start weeding somewhere and GIA EX is an effective way to do that. Some GIA EXs are "better" than others, depending on what you are looking for/how picky you want to be/what your jeweller has available, but no GIA EX is going to be an unattractive/poorly-performing stone that we recommend against.

 

[Clairitek]

Can you post the diameter of the diamond and download and post the report image? This will really help a lot. What about symmetry?

The HCA is "Good- only if price if your main criterion."

Based on those proportions I am going to hazard a guess that the stone is deeply cut so it may weigh 1.5 carats but it won't face up like 1.5 carats. It will face up like less than that. Of course a smaller diamond is not a bad thing, but if you are paying for 1.5 carats you should get the look of 1.5 carats.

ETA: Was posting at the same time as Chris. He gave some awesome advice. I hope you can find a better performing stone with the same guy so you don't lose your deposit.

 

[mike899]

thanks for all the help.

I have some more questions to help me through this.

How hard is it for a jeweler to set and change a stone? is it a hassle? like is he going to tell me.. " you already picked this one and i set this one blah blah blah you have to buy it"

Is it common to not get your deposit back if you change your mind? honestly 10k is a lot, 2k is also a lot, but if he came down to it, i would chalk the 2k loss up to bad luck and start my search over

What do you think is the best way for me approach this? do i look at it and not act satisfied? or do i just come clean and tell him i was researching the diamond online and i would like a better cut stone?

EDIT: age of the report is decemeber 2011

 

[tyty333]

I am going to give you the "cheat sheet". There are nice diamonds that fall outside of these ranges but you usually
need to have idealscope image to check on their light return. If you stick to this combination you will usually find
a stone that performs well.

Depth 60-62%
table 54-57%
crown angle 34-35 degrees
pavilion angle 40.6 - 41 degrees

These are the same numbers that go into the HCA. Or... you can look at AGS000 diamonds. These stones have already
been evalauted and have ideal light return so you dont have to worry about the numbers.

If you think you find another stone that looks really good but doesnt fall into the above numbers, post the report number
and exact carat weight and someone will give you their opinion.

Almost all stones look sparkly to people who are new to viewing them. Only after having it for a while they figure out
that it doesnt really seem to perform as well as it did in the lights of the jewelry store. The stones that fit into the numbers
above will fall into the TIC category (Tolkowsky ideal cut), which gives you a balance of fire, white sparkle and brilliance.

 

[yssie]

How hard is it for a jeweler to set and change a stone? is it a hassle? like is he going to tell me.. " you already picked this one and i set this one blah blah blah you have to buy it"

Depends very much on the setting. A plain sturdy Tiffany-style 4/6 prong - no problem. A bezel - may well be impossible without re-doing the entire head, or doing so much damage to the head it just makes more sense to re-do the whole thing. Anything w/ delicate/pave-encrusted prongs - a very delicate job, but a good bench should manage it. A delicate halo w/ delicate prongs - again, a delicate job but manageable. The problem isn't just removing the stone and leaving the setting intact, though - the other half of this equation is finding a new stone and putting it in the old setting. Some settings have quite a bit more "give" in terms of what size/proportions the new stone can have - the first plain Tiffany style is easy, you have quite a bit of room to play, whereas a halo is made for an RB of very specific diameter and so you'll have to stay within whatever those tight margins are. Fortunately you are looking at a common shape and size so finding a viable replacement should not be too much of a headache!

Is it common to not get your deposit back if you change your mind? honestly 10k is a lot, 2k is also a lot, but if he came down to it, i would chalk the 2k loss up to bad luck and start my search over

Again, depends on the terms of your agreement. A non-refundable deposit is on paper, well, non-refundable. A refundable deposit is refundable. Hopefully you have paperwork explaining exactly what your agreement is!

Then, there is also the fact that you are working with a friend. This might be a good thing or not - if you tell him you'd prefer to find another stone/work elsewhere he might consider the friendship good enough reason to overrule any "non-refundable" clause, he might help you find another stone but require you relenquish the deposit, he might be okay with you using another resource for the stone and be willing to make the setting, he might be so offended that your friendship is destroyed. Business + pleasure = tricky relationship, and we can't possibly know what will happen in your specific circumstance I'm afraid!

What do you think is the best way for me approach this? do i look at it and not act satisfied? or do i just come clean and tell him i was researching the diamond online and i would like a better cut stone?

Again... how can we possibly advise you on this? We don't know the details of your relationship. But you were insistent that he was a good friend, so I don't see the need for any drama - why couldn't you just say that you'd prefer to only consider GIA EXs?


Okay on the report age. You're buying the stone with the understanding that it's in the condition described on the report, so with older reports - more than say a couple of years - you'll want to confirm that the condition is in fact still exactly as stated - that the stone hasn't been scratched/nicked/chipped from setting/wear in the intervening years.

 

[yssie]

tyty I have to disagree with you, I dislike that cheat sheet anyway but I really do think in this particular instance it's way too restrictive. I think that Mike may have limited options I am concerned that even GIA EXs only may be too limiting, let alone AGS0 or specific proportions...

 

[Dancing Fire]

ChrisES, thanks for the advice.

I have put down 2k, IDK what the process would be for getting it back. I am going to look at the final set next week, my only option is to play it off like its not "the one" and go off his reaction. Maybe he will say 'if you don't like it, no problem you can have your deposit back" or "we can look at something else"

10k is pretty much my budget, i don't want to go over.
But i think i might be much more satisfied with a perfectly cut 1 carat, if it is going outshine this diamond.

So is this diamond pretty much garbage?

yes,like i said yesterday...something smells. with your budget you can buy a beautiful 1ct-1.25ct stone.

 

[mike899]

thanks you guys have been great with all this help.

so my only decision left, is how do i approach getting a new stone.

In general is it bad manners to ask for a new stone after it's been set? or it something happens often? like if i walk in the store and say i want a new stone is the attitude going to change right away or will he be willing to work with me?

the guy is the brother of a good friend of mine, not someone i am directly friends with.

i've taken off work tuesday and am planning on going in.

 

[tyty333]

tyty I have to disagree with you, I dislike that cheat sheet anyway but I really do think in this particular instance it's way too restrictive. I think that Mike may have limited options I am concerned that even GIA EXs only may be too limiting, let alone AGS0 or specific proportions...

Yes, I know you dont like the cheat sheet. However, for people who have nothing to go on and are asking for some guidelines,
this gives them something. If the brother is a jeweler I dont know why he cant order in AGS000 stones or GIA EX. If the
brother is a guy off the streets (lets hope not), then its a different story and he may have to take what he can get. I also
told him that if he saw another stone that he though was really nice to post the cert and we could comment on it. My concern
with this is that a lot of new comers dont know what they are looking at/for.

 

[rocks]

I rarely comment, but you need to reconsider your purchase. That stone will look alot smaller than a well cut 1.5. What is the diameter of the stone? All of the numbers are bad. The stone is way too deep, and too steep. You are also paying a premium for having hit the 1.act mark. The only way I would consider such a stone is if you had to have a g color and it had to be 1.

You would be wise to look at 1.2 to 1.act well cut stones.

 

[Clairitek]

Since you are having second thoughts about the stone and are pretty sure you want to get a different one just call him now and tell him not to set the stone and to hold onto it and the setting until you can go in on Tuesday. I, too, feel bad when I commit to something like this and change my mind but I think this jeweler will mind a lot less if you do it BEFORE he has set the stone than after. Why play games of acting like you don't like it when you see it on Tuesday? Just be honest now and give him a few days to call in some additional stones that fit into your narrowed parameters.

I am not as well-versed with proportions as others in this thread but I found myself shaking my head in agreement with TyTy's cheat sheet. I have seen people find really great diamonds using those search parameters. One of which was the most blinding stone I've ever laid eyes on (vc10um's diamond). Whenever I personally search on BN or JA for virtual stones to suggest I use those depth and table parameters to weed out some of the options.

 

[tyty333]

thanks you guys have been great with all this help.

so my only decision left, is how do i approach getting a new stone.

In general is it bad manners to ask for a new stone after it's been set? or it something happens often? like if i walk in the store and say i want a new stone is the attitude going to change right away or will he be willing to work with me?

the guy is the brother of a good friend of mine, not someone i am directly friends with.

i've taken off work tuesday and am planning on going in.

You did see the stone before it was mounted right? If there is any chance that it has not been mounted then call them and
tell them to stop. Tell them that you have done further research and would like a better cut stone. Ask them what your
options are.

If its already mounted you might as well wait until Tuesday, look at the ring and then tell them you would like a better cut
stone, and ask what your options are.

edit - I posted before I read clariteks...so I'm dittoing what she said basically. Just be honest with the jeweler.

 

[rocks]

Oppps......sorry. Missed page two.

Good luck.

 

[mike899]

I did see the diamond, it looked great, but like everyone has said I really wasn't sure what i was looking for. I did have it side by side with an ex cut and i thought they looked very close.

I can confirm the diamond was already set .

Who knows I might get there and it might look great. But if it doesnt I need to go with my gut and say something.

 

[tyty333]

I would also read up on these sections
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut/

 

[mike899]

Also what's the deal with egl diamonds? If i find an ideal measurement is it worth buying ?

 

[TxnBluDvl]

Also what's the deal with egl diamonds? If i find an ideal measurement is it worth buying ?

Depending on which EGL (there is a different ones in various countries -- Israel, US, etc.) issued the cert, the color and clarity grading can be soft. That is, you think you're getting a G or VS1, but if that stone is graded by GIA or AGS, it would grade several color or clarity grades lower. So, you think you're getting a deal when you're really not.

 

[mike899]

Great thanks.

Well that's pretty much it.
I am going back Tuesday with an open mind, if the ring looks great I may up buying it. If not ill say I'm not happy and ask for something else and gauge his reaction.

Talked to a friend today who had the same situation. He said the guy gave him the dep back no issue , and my guy should if he is reputable.

 

[Amys Bling]

You should buy a stone you want and not feel guilted into anything.

 

[atp223]

So if I go back there, and attempt to get a better diamond from the same guy, obviously I can't be entering the % in this site real time.

What am I looking for exactly on each report?

any advice from anyone on how to get the deposit back would be great.

I actually did this at two different jewelry stores when we were searching for a diamond. I was pretty committed to ordering from BGD online, but I wanted to look at size differences (between 1.7 and 2 carats) in person, so I went and was very up front about what I was doing. They of course still tried to sell me their stones, but I asked for the numbers for the HCA and ran all of the stones they showed me as they showed them. They were GIA triple Xs that were getting 5+. One of the jewelers knew what I was doing, and also knew about the stone we were planning to buy from BGD, and after he realized I was using the HCA in real time he actually said he couldn't sell me anything that would be remotely competitive with the ideal BGD cut diamond for the particular price we were getting it for...and that was that.

My point is only that if you have a smartphone you totallyyy could use the HCA while you were in there. Also taking the stone out of the spotlights (Eg closer to a window if there is one) to see its performance in more natural lighting is helpful too.

 

[mike899]

Thanks..

So i will be going into the store tomorrow. Plan is just go in with an open mind, I am not a diamond perfectionist. If the ring looks great and its what I want I am not against buying it.

If I am having second thoughts, I am going to ask him to state the return policy before i pay. I will ask something like "so whats the return policy if she doesn't like the ring? can we come back and exchange it? get him to say yes to that. Then go into how i did some research on this diamond and I am not happy with it. Then ask to see something else

i'll give you guys an update tomorrow.

 

[PrincessCath]

another side question.. do you guys think a 1.5 diamond is 'over the top'? I am struggling if I should go smaller.

You are kidding, right?
Seriously, it is all a matter of taste. I am a US size 5, but have long fingers, and my smallest ring is 16x14 mm. The largest (which I like to wear on my middle finger) is 15x30. No, unfortunately, it is not a solitaire...
But take into account the shape of the hand, not only the ring size.

 

[mike899]

another side question.. do you guys think a 1.5 diamond is 'over the top'? I am struggling if I should go smaller.

You are kidding, right?
Seriously, it is all a matter of taste. I am a US size 5, but have long fingers, and my smallest ring is 16x14 mm. The largest (which I like to wear on my middle finger) is 15x30. No, unfortunately, it is not a solitaire...
But take into account the shape of the hand, not only the ring size.

Sorry I have just never bought a diamond ring before and hopefully i won't ever be buying one again. been second guessing everything i decide on.

 

[PrincessCath]

I certainly hope I didn't hurt your feelings. I wouldn't consider 1,5 ct too large, but I like large rings, and that's just me.
I have been looking at stones lately myself, and found these charts helpful: http://www.ajediam.com/Sizes-of-Diamonds.html And, as others who are more knowledgeable than I have pointed out, the face-up size of a stone is not only a matter of weight, but also of cut. Each fraction of a carat is so very expensive, there is no point in paying for a stone that will face up smaller than its weight.
It took me weeks, and a very patient vendor, to finally settle on a stone I love, so keep heart!