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Engagement ring disaster, please help us make next move.

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Date: 10/27/2008 7:33:55 AM
Author: alexis5
i guess i don't want to give them bad publicity until we speak with them and know for sure that there isn't another explanation (can't think what it would be at the moment!).
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The other explanation is that you agreed to accept the grading opinions of EGL-International as an acceptable substitute for GIA in order to do your deal more quickly and, based on this agreement, that’s what they delivered. Frankly, it's a pretty good argument. I would hold in check the fingerpointing and threats of lawsuits and public embarrassment and appeal to their sense of good customer relations. You're unhappy, you've got a good reason to be unhappy, and it would sure be nice of them to fix it. Please.
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You can always raise the volume later if that doesn't work.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
thats true - but we accepted on the knowledge of both the ''original'' GIA grading that they continued to assure us on (well after we had the EGL) and the EGL cert. we also paid the original price based on their rating of E, VS1. The EGL was only ever supposed to verify their original grading when we insisted (they said unnecessary all the way). We also have it in writing that they assured us of the GIA rating and compared it with the EGL...

either way, you are right we will start soft and then go with a more firm approach if that doesn''t get us anywhere. i also still want to believe it was just a mistake. may be naive but i would prefer to think this in the long run.

we have called and she would not give us his number but he is calling back ... hopefully soon.

i just hope we can put it all behind us soon.
 
Good luck!
 
UPDATE: thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, we have found the comments/advice really helpful.

my fiance spoke with the owner this afternoon after calling three times.

the owner said he is shocked to hear about the GIA grade and will check his files for the information he has on this stone. he originally said he would get back to us on Thursday but my fiance asked that he get back at least in the next 24hrs.

he asked that we send through a copy of the GIA cert and we have also done that.

he has not apologised or said what he will do either way yet (understandably) as he wants to establish the fact he has.

the two things he did say was that their prices are based on manufacturing not the stone and that their original grading would have been based on their own expert appraisal rather than GIA. we have it in writing that they told us GIA but if he is saying it was their expert opinion i don''t really see how they can''t own the mistake...

we are pleased he hasn''t refused point blank, but have no idea what his response will be at this point after reviewing his notes. so looks like we have to wait another 24hrs. because of the importance (emotionally and financially) this is pretty difficult but at least we are on the way to a resolution (fingers crossed !!).
 
I am sorry for your trouble and i hope it will turn out to be a blessing in disguise. you stressed on the note that it was a reputable place, and from the last post that the owner called back and was trying to have his facts set, it seems he is behaving in a professional manner (only an impression i got from reading your post), it is fair to say if they were really reputable they will make you happy and make it up for you, and that where it could be a blessing in disguise, (who knows may be a better deal as a compensation and to preserve their reputation), after all ....mistakes happen and it could be one where the owner straightens it out, meanwhile you are still looking at other avenues but i would exhaust the first one.

I hope again it ends up soon to your expectations and to put this behind you and enjoy your ring
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A few QUESTIONS...

We have just been looking at the new GIA certificate in comparison to the EGL Antwerp.

We had focused on the huge colour discrepancy but have now realised the measurements are slightly different too.
can anyone tell me if this is just normal due to different instruments being used or if it is problematic and would mean perhaps that the EGL is even less trustworthy and if the GIA dimensions show it to be less ideal in terms of percentages? i am assuming it is impossible it is a different stone given they are the same weight and almost the same dimensions.

just to recap it is the jewelers own special cut and is 58 faceted, cut-cornered rectangular mixed cut with no cutlet.

GIA said:

6.65 x 5.31 x 3.69 mm

Total Depth: 69.5 %
Table Size: 61 %
Girdle: Slightly Thick to Thick
Cutlet: None

EGL Antwerp said:

6.69 x 5.37 x 3.68 mm

Depth: 68.5 %
Table diameter: 67 %
Crown height: 13 %
Pavilion depth 52 %
Girdle thickness: medium polished

it has no plot - i assume b.c it is a different cut from normal ... or do EGL International just not have plots.

comments on whether these variations are additionally concerning (and what they might mean) or if this is not important and can happen easily.

thanks again!
 
forgot to ask one more question (sorry!)

the GIA plots it and shows a ''bruise'' and grades it as VVS2 (they graded it originally as VS1 and EGL graded it as VVS1 so either way there is no major issue here). i guess i just want clarification of what a bruise is, how it is likely caused and if they can say it was us (or if it matters).

thanks...
 
Alexis, cheers for updating us, I''m sorry you are having such trouble.
I will let the experts address your questions, but I would be inclined to trust GIA''s measurements over EGL - there is quite a discrepancy, esp. in the table size
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Perhaps it is possible that they mixed up your stone?
With regards to the bruise, are you saying there was no mention of it on the EGL cert?
(from BN) a bruise is described as "A minor chip or concussion on the stone that may create root-like lines inside the diamond."
I''m not sure, but I would imagine this would''ve been present before you took ownership - are you hard on your hands or have you knocked the ring at all?
 
thanks - yes, hope some experts have some feedback on whether these differences are meaningful ... i am amazed at the comment it may be a different stone... could this really be possible!

also, no i haven''t knocked the ring heavily and take it off when i go to the gym etc.

thanks
 
any experts to comment on the different measurements? we are speaking with the owner again in a few hours and want to understand if there is any chance it is a different stone or if these differences just point to EGL being poor.

thank you!
 
You said a few days ago that GIA called it a VS1 but now are calling it a VVS2. Did something change, was it regarded or was that just an error?

You seem to be confident that it''s the same stone. Why? Knowing nothing about the cutting design, there''s no way to say which one is ''better'' but yes, that''s enough different to be concerned about whether both labs even saw the same stone.

Yes, it is possible for you to have created a bruise. I, of course, can’t comment about this having never seen the stone either before or after you bought it. This question can only be addressed by someone who has seen the stone at least twice, both before and after the alleged damage.

Can you post scans of the two reports?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
 
Hi Neil

thank you so much for your useful comments.

i got the clarity wrong on the second GIA. we got the results over the phone and picked up the actual certificate yesterday. it said it was VVS2.

i have tried to attach the GIA, pls let me know if it works.

i will ask my fiance to scan the EGL and send it as soon as possible too.
 
here is the GIA certificate.

so, it is possible it is a different stone??
 

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Date: 10/28/2008 11:28:37 AM
Author: alexis5
here is the GIA certificate.


so, it is possible it is a different stone??
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It''s always possible... but it''s probably unlikely...it''s also possible that they just sold you a stone that didn''t match what they promised initially and the store isn''t as reputable as you''d think.
 
Date: 10/28/2008 11:31:37 AM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 10/28/2008 11:28:37 AM
Author: alexis5
here is the GIA certificate.


so, it is possible it is a different stone??
Click to expand...

It''s always possible... but it''s probably unlikely...it''s also possible that they just sold you a stone that didn''t match what they promised initially and the store isn''t as reputable as you''d think.
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agreed
 
Have you heard anything back from the store yet today?
 
i have attached the EGL for comparison.

looks like we are in for a nightmare.... we have just heard back from the owner via email. he has said that we accepted the sale with the EGL certificate included.... ''Accordingly, I guess we didn''t do any mistake or wrong advise as you are trying to pretend in your mail''.

he has completely disregarded the fact that we accepted on the basis that they had graded it above this and that we had requested the certificate (they were happy to sell as it was). the EGL was verification for their original grade, giving us confidence it was somewhere between E and F. they stated in writing that is was GIA certified and the owner stood there with us (he remembers us) and told us that it was without question an E. he is now saying their own experts certify the stone not GIA but won''t even hold to the experts grading now.

we spoke to him again and explained the above : we selected the ring on their grading when we walked into the store, we would not have looked at it otherwise. we then bought on their grading, the EGL verification and their reputation (we could trust their grading). we also explained that they wrote to us telling us clearly it was GIA certified and GIA have said clearly that they have not seen the stone- there is no grey area here.

he said he will speak to his partners to see what he can do ethically and speak with his lawyers.

i don''t think this will be easy but we are going to pursue it b.c it is wrong to misrepresent something so hugely and then not be willing to rectify the mistake. they may have more knowledge and money but it doesn''t change right and wrong.

any further tips for pursuing this further would be greatly appreciated. i was really hoping it would be all over today. i can''t believe we are having to deal with this over an engagement ring
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is there a "BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU" in switzerland? did you pay all cash?
 
There is a Federal Commission of consumer affairs. i have spoken with them and they are getting their legal expert to talk to us tomorrow.

we paid the deposit on credit card (around a quarter i think)...
 
Do you have anything in writing that it supposedly had a GIA certificate when you bought it?
 
i would call you credit card company NOW and file a complaint for that amount immediately. when you bought did the paperwork state the color and clarity? also i am curious -do thy have an upgrade policy? if so what is it.
 
if i file for complaint for that part of the payment will it jeopardise getting the whole amount back? i am worried b.c having that amount back would mean we would be left with a small amount and unable to purchase another ring.

what we have from them is an email saying it is GIA certified (see below in french) and an email comparing the ''stats'' of the EGL to their grading (one colour down from their grading, one clarity grade up etc). i don''t think we have the card they wrote on when we were first there but both these emails set out their position.

Diamant : Taille « VDB Diamond Cut »1,07 cts (env. selon évaluation avec certificat GIA fourni)

i am showing my ignorance (yet again) but what is an upgrade policy, i assume you mean where you take the stone back and swap it for a better one later by paying the additional value?
 
Date: 10/28/2008 2:53:02 PM
Author: alexis5
if i file for complaint for that part of the payment will it jeopardise getting the whole amount back? i am worried b.c having that amount back would mean we would be left with a small amount and unable to purchase another ring.


what we have from them is an email saying it is GIA certified (see below in french) and an email comparing the ''stats'' of the EGL to their grading (one colour down from their grading, one clarity grade up etc). i don''t think we have the card they wrote on when we were first there but both these emails set out their position.


Diamant : Taille « VDB Diamond Cut »1,07 cts (env. selon évaluation avec certificat GIA fourni)


i am showing my ignorance (yet again) but what is an upgrade policy, i assume you mean where you take the stone back and swap it for a better one later by paying the additional value?
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Your understanding of an upgrade policy is correct.

As for the GIA thing, I cannot read French. Does it/they say that it was certified by a GIA graduate gemologist or that it is certified by GIA/comes with a certificate from GIA? They mean different things, so just wanted to clarify.
 
Hi

the statement in french says that is comes with a GIA certificate (and another email says what the grading they have is E, VS1).

they did not mention an upgrade policy at any point and i have not asked so I am unsure of this.
 
Date: 10/28/2008 3:37:25 PM
Author: alexis5
Hi


the statement in french says that is comes with a GIA certificate (and another email says what the grading they have is E, VS1).


they did not mention an upgrade policy at any point and i have not asked so I am unsure of this.
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I guess I am just confused because you keep referring to "their" grading, do you mean the store''s? Or GIA''s? Just want to make sure I have clear what they told you in writing...
 
sorry - i know its confusing with three sets of grading (the original GIA the jeweler swore by, the EGL and the recent GIA which we just got back) and i probably don''t present is very clearly.

they maintained that the diamond was GIA graded E, VS1 from the time we first saw the diamond until after we purchased it. that is the grading i refer to whenever i say ''their'' grading. i have referred to it that way because i now don''t believe it was ever graded by GIA. GIA have also confirmed this.

in the last few days they (the jewelers) have said their original grading was based on their own expert opinion not GIA (even though we have it in writing).

hope that is clearer...?
 
I think that this sort of sales pitch probably goes on all the time. Im sure that many consumers have bought diamonds thinking that they are better than they really are due to soft grading reports. However, usually the prices are still fair and are not based on GIA grading prices, which leaves consumers feeling like they scored a great bargain.


I think in this case, the poster should get some financial facts in order. Was he charged a fair price for the diamond considering its specs. What would a real GIA graded diamond have cost in the specs he wanted( E VS1)? What would have a real GIA graded diamond have cost in the actul diamond he purchased (eg H. VS1)? Is he really out of pocket or not?

At the end of the day I think its important to know these facts because it may be that the buyer got a good buy or not???

However, I understand that the vendor was deceptive in his dealings, but this is probably considered normal trading by many shops. The fact that so many think (or pretend to agree) that all the certificates have equal weighting allows this practice to flourish.

I hope the poster gets a happy outcome.
 
we have just finished a long email to the jeweler listing every part of the purchase, the information on which we based our decision etc etc.

in answer to sharon''s post we paid so far above the price of an H, VVS2 that it is embarrassing (and even more infuriating). the insane thing is we paid above a standard E, VS1 price (which we knew was for the name). we did this because we felt this gave us piece of mind that we were getting what we paid for (!). sadly, we in no way got ''what we paid for'' and may have decided to let this go if we had based our decision on the EGL cert alone and priced it accordingly.

we more than double the approx standard internet price of an H, VVS stone. great feeling.

we are both stressed and upset but know the main thing is that we are dealing with this together and that our engagement is the most important thing. whatever happens we are clear on this.
 
sorry, i''m tired. i meant to say in the last post that we ''paid'' around double the price of the approx standard cost for an H/ VVS1 diamond on the internet... missed out the word paid. i would prefer not to say exact as i don''t think my fiance would like me discussing exact figures.

''great feeling'' is obviously as far from how we feel about all this as possible!
 
Date: 10/28/2008 4:06:56 PM
Author: alexis5
sorry - i know its confusing with three sets of grading (the original GIA the jeweler swore by, the EGL and the recent GIA which we just got back) and i probably don''t present is very clearly.


they maintained that the diamond was GIA graded E, VS1 from the time we first saw the diamond until after we purchased it. that is the grading i refer to whenever i say ''their'' grading. i have referred to it that way because i now don''t believe it was ever graded by GIA. GIA have also confirmed this.


in the last few days they (the jewelers) have said their original grading was based on their own expert opinion not GIA (even though we have it in writing).


hope that is clearer...?
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Got it! Thanks. It was the "their grading" that was confusing me.
 
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