Elbaite Tourmaline and their value. Any idea?

[JewelryLover]

Just another question, I'll post it in this topic instead of opening a new one.

Can anyone of you see a difference between a Aquamarine and a Paraiba Tourmaline without testing it? If yes, please let me know how.

These are completely different gemstones. One is from the beryl family and the other is from the tourmaline family. An Aquamarine will never achieve the glow of a Paraiba Tourmaline and very rarely match the colour so IF you are experienced at looking at stones then, with these two stones, you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to see the difference. HOWEVER, I'm not sure how much you know about gemstones but it's absolutely impossible to tell much about gemstones just by looking - you need a lot of experience for this and know what to look for. A loupe is an essential item but even then you need to be able to "read" what you're seeing. This takes years of practice. There are threads on this if you search. Also some gemstones can look similar to others. In order to determine between the two you need gemological instruments that can test for RI, SG and, in some cases, very expensive large equipment that only the top labs possess! Not all labs are equal.

I have a feeling you're trying to learn (a good thing) but you need to understand it's like learning Latin. There's no quick way.

Thank you for the fast response
Hmm .. I've never been thinking about it ever before because I've been told all my life that's a natural aquamarine. But I were going through some inherited jewelry today and I found the gemstone to be incredibly blue and sparkly, I have never personally seen any matching aquamarine before (it might exist, but I haven't seen one by myself). It might be a Zirconia as well, I'm not sure when they started to use Zirconia in jewelry?

I know that Paraibas were discovered in the 80's but then I started to wonder "discovered in which way"? Discovered for the first time, or discovered as in the mix up with Ruby vs. Spinel, something they did think were the same type of gemstone but weren't.

I think I will send the gemstone to AGL for a gembrief just to see what this is. Just for fun. Only thing is if it get lost on the way there by the Post agencies, that would freak me out. The gemstone is probably from somewhere between 1900-1940's. Old European "diamond" cut, 2.36 carats.

 

[LD]

You can't ID a stone from a photo but if I were to bet I'd say this was a Topaz or a simulant of some description. It appears to have quite a lot of table abrasions is that correct?

 

[T L]

Another note about the cuprian vs non-cuprian value thing. In my opinion, copper should only affect value if it actually is a chromophore, and a chromophore is a chemical responsible for the color of a stone. There is plenty of tourmaline out there that contain copper, but the color isn't affected by the presence of that copper. The copper brings out the turquoise blue/green in true Paraiba tourmaline, in other tourmaline, it does not. For example, I can't tell you how many times I see this color being sold as cuprian and the pricetag is high because of it. This color is not caused by copper. You can find plenty of non-copper bearing tourmaline with this exact same purplish pink color. Education is key, and I don't think people should pay a high premium simply because a stone has a chemical that doesn't affect its color. I've even seen some people try to heat these purplish pinks hoping to change them to Paraibas, and they all seem to just turn a lighter tone of purplish pink. There are some violet grey tourmaline with copper that will heat to turquoise, but it is not this same color.

 

[JewelryLover]

You can't ID a stone from a photo but if I were to bet I'd say this was a Topaz or a simulant of some description. It appears to have quite a lot of table abrasions is that correct?

That make much more sense than Aquamarine, so thank you!

 

[T L]

One more note, most cuprians are heated to turquoise color. Now this is the color that typically heats to turquoise if it is copper bearing.

Also, just because a cuprian heats to turquoise color, it doesn't meant that color will be intensely saturated either. You could end up with just a pretty light blue green tourmaline, which doesn't glow, but is as nice as many other non copper bearing blue green tourmaline.

 

[JewelryLover]

One more note, most cuprians are heated to turquoise color. Now this is the color that typically heats to turquoise if it is copper bearing.

Also, just because a cuprian heats to turquoise color, it doesn't meant that color will be intensely saturated either. You could end up with just a pretty light blue green tourmaline, which doesn't glow, but is as nice as many other non copper bearing blue green tourmaline.

Will that mean that if you purchase a cheap Elbaite tourmaline that is untreated and then heat it and the color under any circumstances changes to the Paraiba color - you can charge thousands and also earn thousands of dollars just because of heat? Because it reach the Pariaba color and it do also contain Copper .. then it's suddenly a Paraiba tourmaline? I'm not arguing, just asking.

 

[T L]

One more note, most cuprians are heated to turquoise color. Now this is the color that typically heats to turquoise if it is copper bearing.

Also, just because a cuprian heats to turquoise color, it doesn't meant that color will be intensely saturated either. You could end up with just a pretty light blue green tourmaline, which doesn't glow, but is as nice as many other non copper bearing blue green tourmaline.

Will that mean that if you purchase a cheap Elbaite tourmaline that is untreated and then heat it and the color under any circumstances changes to the Paraiba color - you can charge thousands and also earn thousands of dollars just because of heat? Because it reach the Pariaba color and it do also contain Copper .. then it's suddenly a Paraiba tourmaline? I'm not arguing, just asking.

From what I've seen, this violet grey color is pretty rare, and even then, it might still not change to something very saturated if it survives the heating in the first place. Many crack or their inclusions cause fractures that grow in a heated environment. I have rarely come upon pretty clean violet greys like this that contain copper, and when you do, they are often very expensive because the seller knows they have the potential to heat it and get something paraiba blue. You also rarely see this color because they almost all have been heated. However, yes, if you are fortunate enough to buy a clean violet grey stone for a great price and it heats to paraiba blue, then you can charge more for it. Paraibas are one of the few stones that are typically more valuable after treatment (heating in this case). Also beware of fracture filled paraiba, which does affect value, and I hear is becoming quite a common treatment in these stones.

 

[T L]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

 

[JewelryLover]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

Thank you for the information and also for sharing the pictures, this is very helpful. I did know that Paraibas usually are heated but I had no clue they were Purple before heating. But it's the same with Tanzanite, so it do make sense when thinking about it.

 

[T L]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

Thank you for the information and also for sharing the pictures. This is very helpful, I did know what Paraibas usually are heated but I had no clue they were Purple before heating. But it's the same with Tanzanite, so it do make sense when thinking about it.

Not just any purple either. The purplish pink I showed above does not heat to paraiba turquoise from what I've seen over the years, and some would consider that color purple. It has to be a very specific color of greyish violet or greyish blue from what I've seen. Just be careful because I have seen people try to obtain purplish pink cuprians and try to heat them to get the neon blue, and they have failed, but they paid a high price on the unheated stone because it contained copper. In these particular cases, copper was not a chromophore, and the stone should have been priced lower IMO.

 

[JewelryLover]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

Thank you for the information and also for sharing the pictures. This is very helpful, I did know what Paraibas usually are heated but I had no clue they were Purple before heating. But it's the same with Tanzanite, so it do make sense when thinking about it.

Not just any purple either. The purplish pink I showed above does not heat to paraiba turquoise from what I've seen over the years, and some would consider that color purple. It has to be a very specific color of greyish violet or greyish blue from what I've seen. Just be careful because I have seen people try to obtain purplish pink cuprians and try to heat them to get the neon blue, and they have failed, but they paid a high price on the unheated stone because it contained copper. In these particular cases, copper was not a chromophore, and the stone should have been priced lower IMO.

I understand So how many degrees to heat a Torumaline? And how many degrees to heat a Tanzanite? For how long?

 

[T L]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

Thank you for the information and also for sharing the pictures. This is very helpful, I did know what Paraibas usually are heated but I had no clue they were Purple before heating. But it's the same with Tanzanite, so it do make sense when thinking about it.

Not just any purple either. The purplish pink I showed above does not heat to paraiba turquoise from what I've seen over the years, and some would consider that color purple. It has to be a very specific color of greyish violet or greyish blue from what I've seen. Just be careful because I have seen people try to obtain purplish pink cuprians and try to heat them to get the neon blue, and they have failed, but they paid a high price on the unheated stone because it contained copper. In these particular cases, copper was not a chromophore, and the stone should have been priced lower IMO.

I understand So how many degrees to heat a Torumaline? And how many degrees to heat a Tanzanite? For how long?

I do not heat stones,and it should be done by someone who is familar with heating them. Everyone has their own "formula" for getting the optimal results. I will just say that tourmaline cannot withstand incredibly hot temperatures like corundum can. They are also typically heated in a kiln, and the cooling process is very important as well.

 

[JewelryLover]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

Thank you for the information and also for sharing the pictures. This is very helpful, I did know what Paraibas usually are heated but I had no clue they were Purple before heating. But it's the same with Tanzanite, so it do make sense when thinking about it.

Not just any purple either. The purplish pink I showed above does not heat to paraiba turquoise from what I've seen over the years, and some would consider that color purple. It has to be a very specific color of greyish violet or greyish blue from what I've seen. Just be careful because I have seen people try to obtain purplish pink cuprians and try to heat them to get the neon blue, and they have failed, but they paid a high price on the unheated stone because it contained copper. In these particular cases, copper was not a chromophore, and the stone should have been priced lower IMO.

I understand So how many degrees to heat a Torumaline? And how many degrees to heat a Tanzanite? For how long?

I do not heat stones,and it should be done by someone who is familar with heating them. Everyone has their own "formula" for getting the optimal results. I will just say that tourmaline cannot withstand incredibly hot temperatures like corundum can. They are also typically heated in a kiln, and the cooling process is very important as well.

Okay, so if getting hands on a Copper bearing Grayish Purple Tourmaline then it would be best to get it heated by a skilled gomologist then. Do you know about any companies that heat gemstones for others? Or do most of them just heat their own gemstones?

 

[T L]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

Thank you for the information and also for sharing the pictures. This is very helpful, I did know what Paraibas usually are heated but I had no clue they were Purple before heating. But it's the same with Tanzanite, so it do make sense when thinking about it.

Not just any purple either. The purplish pink I showed above does not heat to paraiba turquoise from what I've seen over the years, and some would consider that color purple. It has to be a very specific color of greyish violet or greyish blue from what I've seen. Just be careful because I have seen people try to obtain purplish pink cuprians and try to heat them to get the neon blue, and they have failed, but they paid a high price on the unheated stone because it contained copper. In these particular cases, copper was not a chromophore, and the stone should have been priced lower IMO.

I understand So how many degrees to heat a Torumaline? And how many degrees to heat a Tanzanite? For how long?

I do not heat stones,and it should be done by someone who is familar with heating them. Everyone has their own "formula" for getting the optimal results. I will just say that tourmaline cannot withstand incredibly hot temperatures like corundum can. They are also typically heated in a kiln, and the cooling process is very important as well.

Okay, so if getting hands on a Copper bearing Grayish Purple Tourmaline then it would be best to get it heated by a skilled gomologist then. Do you know about any companies that heat gemstones for others? Or do most of them just heat their own gemstones?

You don't have to be a gemologist to heat a tourmaline. Anyone can do it, but it's learning how to do it properly that counts. I don't know of anyone or any company that does this for customers. The outcome can destroy the stone, so one needs to be prepared for that as well.

 

[JewelryLover]

Here is a before and after of a treated cuprian. This stone was cut and treated by Gene of precisiongem.com.

Thank you for the information and also for sharing the pictures. This is very helpful, I did know what Paraibas usually are heated but I had no clue they were Purple before heating. But it's the same with Tanzanite, so it do make sense when thinking about it.

Not just any purple either. The purplish pink I showed above does not heat to paraiba turquoise from what I've seen over the years, and some would consider that color purple. It has to be a very specific color of greyish violet or greyish blue from what I've seen. Just be careful because I have seen people try to obtain purplish pink cuprians and try to heat them to get the neon blue, and they have failed, but they paid a high price on the unheated stone because it contained copper. In these particular cases, copper was not a chromophore, and the stone should have been priced lower IMO.

I understand So how many degrees to heat a Torumaline? And how many degrees to heat a Tanzanite? For how long?

I do not heat stones,and it should be done by someone who is familar with heating them. Everyone has their own "formula" for getting the optimal results. I will just say that tourmaline cannot withstand incredibly hot temperatures like corundum can. They are also typically heated in a kiln, and the cooling process is very important as well.

Okay, so if getting hands on a Copper bearing Grayish Purple Tourmaline then it would be best to get it heated by a skilled gomologist then. Do you know about any companies that heat gemstones for others? Or do most of them just heat their own gemstones?

You don't have to be a gemologist to heat a tourmaline. Anyone can do it, but it's learning how to do it properly that counts. I don't know of anyone or any company that does this for customers. The outcome can destroy the stone, so one needs to be prepared for that as well.

No, I did understand that. But I suppose a Gemologist would be a little more skilled than a regular Trader f.ex.
I will take a deeper look into to this and see if I can find any good information

 

[JewelryLover]

I got access to a oven that can reach 1400*C. So I will start a new topic with pictures within 30 days or so. I will heat both a Tourmaline (as fast as I find one, grayish purple) and a Tanzanite that I already got. If it work out well, then go me. If it doesn't, then it were just plain fun!

 

[ChrisA222]

Im intrigued with the whole idea of heating gemstones....

http://www.litnon.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=7967

That might be a good candidate. However, heating a stone with inclusions could burst it, per the stones description. I would have bought it by now though, if I had access to a kiln, and take a risk just for the fun of it.

If I can remember where I saw the other one, I will post it...

 

[LD]

Long term posters will recall that Pandora and I both heated Kunzites to see if we could darken the pink colour. Both of us used clean stones and put them inside chickens (so if they burst we didn't wreck anything). We both had moderate success.

JeweleryLover - You have to know what is likely to heat to a blue and what isn't. The likelihood of you picking up a stone that will change to a paraiba blue and remain intact is about 1%! Don't forget the people who mine these stones (and very little is coming out of the ground) will sell to people who are looking to do exactly this. Think about it, why would they sell cheaply a stone to a member of the public when they can make a much healthier profit heating it themselves or getting somebody to do it for them?

Heating gemstones is an art and skill as mentioned above. People do this for a living! Anyway if you want to have a bit of fun it'll be a good experiment but please take care!

 

[T L]

Im intrigued with the whole idea of heating gemstones....

http://www.litnon.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=7967

That might be a good candidate. However, heating a stone with inclusions could burst it, per the stones description. I would have bought it by now though, if I had access to a kiln, and take a risk just for the fun of it.

If I can remember where I saw the other one, I will post it...

I have been told that the tone of the stone relates to the tone of the final heated product, so at best, that might end up to be a very pale blue, but not the saturated turquoise blue that is so desirable. It is also very included, which can also cause issues during the heating process.

For example, this stone was heated to a neon windex blue paraiba color.



And just as a reminder, this is a desirable windex blue stone color, although they never look as good in photos as they do IRL. No where close.

 

[chrono]

CCM,
Yes, we are indeed in agreement. Your explanation is very clear and much better than mine.

On the topic of heating cuprians, remember that if the glow is weak and saturation is low, it still is not considered a Paraiba but a cuprian. The only difference is that the gray component is now removed. As mentioned by LD and TL, it is a very specific violet gray colour cuprian and even if very clean, runs the high risk of shattering completely. I know of at least 2 experienced lapidaries who've heated cuprians successfully, also destroyed cuprians during the heating process. They took the loss on those tourmalines. It's such a risky venture that even if such material can be found today, few are willing to risk having it shatter into bits.

JL,
I doubt the stone you showed is an aqua. It does not show the right characteristics. Have you had a gemmologist verify the specific gravity and refractive index?

 

[minousbijoux]

TL: tell us about the ring is that yours? Stats stat, m'dear!

 

[T L]

TL: tell us about the ring is that yours? Stats stat, m'dear!

That's not my ring Minou, that photo was taken at a very expensive 5th avenue store in NYC by someone admiring it in their case. I forget the poster and the name of the store.

 

[chrono]

This one is mine. Before and after heating. The cuprian does not need to show visible copper needles in order to "turn".

 

[JewelryLover]

Long term posters will recall that Pandora and I both heated Kunzites to see if we could darken the pink colour. Both of us used clean stones and put them inside chickens (so if they burst we didn't wreck anything). We both had moderate success.

JeweleryLover - You have to know what is likely to heat to a blue and what isn't. The likelihood of you picking up a stone that will change to a paraiba blue and remain intact is about 1%! Don't forget the people who mine these stones (and very little is coming out of the ground) will sell to people who are looking to do exactly this. Think about it, why would they sell cheaply a stone to a member of the public when they can make a much healthier profit heating it themselves or getting somebody to do it for them?

Heating gemstones is an art and skill as mentioned above. People do this for a living! Anyway if you want to have a bit of fun it'll be a good experiment but please take care!

Yes, and I do understand that. I would've heated them by myself as well if I were a trader or gemstone seller because I wold knew the profit. But still, I think it's interesting, and yes, if it dont burst it will be fun as well

 

[JewelryLover]

CCM,
Yes, we are indeed in agreement. Your explanation is very clear and much better than mine.

On the topic of heating cuprians, remember that if the glow is weak and saturation is low, it still is not considered a Paraiba but a cuprian. The only difference is that the gray component is now removed. As mentioned by LD and TL, it is a very specific violet gray colour cuprian and even if very clean, runs the high risk of shattering completely. I know of at least 2 experienced lapidaries who've heated cuprians successfully, also destroyed cuprians during the heating process. They took the loss on those tourmalines. It's such a risky venture that even if such material can be found today, few are willing to risk having it shatter into bits.

JL,
I doubt the stone you showed is an aqua. It does not show the right characteristics. Have you had a gemmologist verify the specific gravity and refractive index?

The answer to your last question is NO. As stated earlier in this topic I have never been thinking much about the gemstone before as I have been told all my life that is an Aquamarine as it has been running in the family for approximately 100 years. Until today when I unmounted it from its broken original setting and I could clearly see the sparkle and that the color were so extremely bright. And also that it is so extremely sparkly that it's hard to even get a good picture of it.

What I could see under magnification is that it chips very easily, or at least it has one tiny chip on the table and one at det very bottom. I dont know if this is because of the age or not, as I dont know how often it were worn. I did unmount it because I want to change the setting so it's possible to wear it again as it has been locked up and have been unworn for about 40 years. The best would be to just repair the setting, but the type of metal are so extremely soft that it will break again. I dont know which type of metal it is because there's no visible stamp (may been worn down), but it's so soft that I could unmount it from the 4-prong setting just with my fingernails.

 

[JewelryLover]

Im intrigued with the whole idea of heating gemstones....

http://www.litnon.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=7967

That might be a good candidate. However, heating a stone with inclusions could burst it, per the stones description. I would have bought it by now though, if I had access to a kiln, and take a risk just for the fun of it.

If I can remember where I saw the other one, I will post it...

I have been told that the tone of the stone relates to the tone of the final heated product, so at best, that might end up to be a very pale blue, but not the saturated turquoise blue that is so desirable. It is also very included, which can also cause issues during the heating process.

For example, this stone was heated to a neon windex blue paraiba color.



And just as a reminder, this is a desirable windex blue stone color, although they never look as good in photos as they do IRL. No where close.

I do really like the color of the ring you posted as well as the mount. I love that "sea" color that Pariabas have!

 

[JewelryLover]

This one is mine. Before and after heating. The cuprian does not need to show visible copper needles in order to "turn".

Very nice outcome!

 

[JewelryLover]

Im intrigued with the whole idea of heating gemstones....

http://www.litnon.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=7967

That might be a good candidate. However, heating a stone with inclusions could burst it, per the stones description. I would have bought it by now though, if I had access to a kiln, and take a risk just for the fun of it.

If I can remember where I saw the other one, I will post it...

I have been told that the tone of the stone relates to the tone of the final heated product, so at best, that might end up to be a very pale blue, but not the saturated turquoise blue that is so desirable. It is also very included, which can also cause issues during the heating process.

For example, this stone was heated to a neon windex blue paraiba color.



And just as a reminder, this is a desirable windex blue stone color, although they never look as good in photos as they do IRL. No where close.

Do you think this one might be qualified for heating (if refering to the color)? Containing Copper, and is 12.24 carats.

 

[minousbijoux]

TL: tell us about the ring is that yours? Stats stat, m'dear!

That's not my ring Minou, that photo was taken at a very expensive 5th avenue store in NYC by someone admiring it in their case. I forget the poster and the name of the store.

Well lets just pretend - you have beautiful hands, too, TL

 

[JewelryLover]

Oh ... that's a bummer!! I would've cried ...

Pink Cuprian Tourmaline (first picture), heated to the sad grayish color.

http://www.mardonjewelers.com/blog/the-perils-of-paraiba-jewelers-tears-2/