Eight Stars & Internal 3D Symmetry. How important?

[derekinla]

I know I''m going to be touching on a controversial topic..... When it comes to visual perfomance (brilliance, fire, scintillation), what is the relative importance of internal and external symmetry? How important is symmetry relative to the external dimensions, angles? Putting any business agendas / bias aside, (i.e. 8* vendors and other vendors of branded Hearts and Arrows) is there a general consensus amoung gemologists in very broad terms? If I were to take 10 ideal cut Eight Star diamonds of equal color, & size, and mix them up with 10 well cut AGS 000 stones (HCA <2) of equal color and size, could one easily separate the stones? Or would it take special lighting and a trained eye?

 

[derekinla]

Another question:

How much better do eighstars score on brilliant scope or Isee2 machines?

 

[Rank Amateur]

I'm note sure I buy the internal and external symmetry line. Sounds like something a salesmn made up. You cut a stone from the outside in, and the inside is more-or-less perfectly formed carbon. It CERTAINLY IS possible to get a decent symmetry grade from a lab but still get "chop suey" in the various viewers. But this is still a function of how the outside of the diamond is cut. The phrase "internal symmetry" to me implies that God did something different molecularly inside one stone as compared to another. Maybe I'm missing the boat on this one.

As for the visible difference, I expect spotting an 8* out of a stack of AGS 0 cuts is probably easy for a real pro. Picking the *8 from a new A Cut Above might be more tricky. I seriously doubt that I could do either.

Now the BrillianceScope, the *8s seem to get knocked down in the scintillation score from VH to H. I doubt that this is visually significant due to the nature of the BS machine.

These are my opinions, uninformed as they are.

R/A

 

[derekinla]

Any expert opinion on this or is this too hot to handle?

 

[Mikesgirl]

I'm far from expert (even some distance from novice)but I was amazed by the difference between my recent purchase with the help of pricescope and my old studs, gift and inherited diamonds. When viewed with the ideal-scope, most of my other diamonds look like the deep and very deep stones on Gary's reference chart under the Ideal Scope row. They clearly don't have the sparkle and brilliance of my stone with the lovely arrows inside.

My background is in architecture so I come from an understanding through geometry, and the geometry inside the stone is formed by the light reflected off and through the cuts in a way that must be similar to light reflected and caught through cut glass prisms or lenses.

Diamonds may all have the same molecular structure, but the way they respond to light is probably a function of using that structure to best advantage by guiding the light into the stone then back out again with precision cuts. What I think I am seeing inside the arrows is the flats and angles of those cuts, and the symmetry helps to focus the light upon return, kind of like a finely ground telescope lens focuses light for viewing. This begs the question of how important it is or whether they can be sorted out by the naked eye (I'm sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference), but personally I see it as an art and one that I am willing to pay a premium for.

 

[Rhino]

Hi dereklina,




If they were thrown into a batch of other AGS "0" stones it would be possible to seperate them by eye although only someone who's eyes were trained and knew what characteristics to look for. It really depends upon the other 10 AGS "0" stones too. Some are cut with more chaotic optical symmetry than others and some that clearly equal the 8*'s symmetry. Some with totally different combinations of minor facet arrangements that many may feel is less or in fact more appealing than 8*'s cutting style. I have a couple in my inventory which I show to clients who want to compare that cutting style with others within the H&A community so they can decide which they prefer as we have access to stones that cover the spectrum within the H&A's. They score great on the Isee2 ranging from 9.2 on up to 9.8. They also get excellent ratings on the BrillianceScope generally scoring high to very high in white light return, always very high in colored light return and generally high in scintillation which are excellent BrillianceScope results. I have to tell you in all sincerity, whether a person likes the price or not or the product, Richard's QA is 2nd to none. I only know of 2 other cutting facilities that cut with the same level of precision, stone after outstanding stone after outstanding stone.




My .02c


Rhino

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

well said Rhino - and on the subject of internal vs external symmetry......

There is no difference - the only problem with external measures is that the technology takes an historic approach and is more concerned with weather the facets meet at sharp points etc. It is possible for all the facets to meet, and the stone to have GIA excellent symmetry, but not look as symmetrical through an ideal-scope etc as other stones with GIA Very Good and Good.

But the problem lies in the appraisal methods - and they will change and catch up

 

[derekinla]

Thanks for the responses! Very helpful. My conclusions are

1) 8*'s and other branded cuts have quality controls that ensure a consistent high degree of internal symmetry.
2) Generic AGS000's have a range of internal symmetry from chaotic to a high degree on par with branded cuts
3) Individual preferences may be for a particular cutting style / internal symmetry.
4) Visual differences between branded cuts and generic AGS00's probaby require a trained eye to easily distinguish.

 

[Bagpuss]

----------------
On 9/19/2003 2:24:36 AM Rhino wrote:


Hi dereklina,


It really depends upon the other 10 AGS '0' stones too. Some are cut with more chaotic optical symmetry than others and some that clearly equal the 8*'s symmetry. Some with totally different combinations of minor facet arrangements that many may feel is less or in fact more appealing than 8*'s cutting style.


My .02c

Rhino
----------------

I must say that I prefer the chaotic look of my OEC. I've got nothing against 8*'s BTW or any other branded diamonds either. I just like the old cut look and would like to see the same look in a modern ideal that has great fire and light return.

Are there any others like me out there? Weird?

 

[antigoon]

So Rhino (and others),

From the posts, I can gather that Eightstar's quality control and consistency is second to none.

But I can't tell whether this means that every one of their diamonds simply outperforms all other diamonds, or rather that every one of their diamonds is as good as the best of all other diamonds.

Judging purely on cut (not on price), suppose you had a choice between a known good diamond (low HCA, h/vh on the Brilliantscope, great Isee2 score), and commissioning an eightstar which you would have to commit to sight unseen. What would you see as the pros and cons of each choice?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Dancing Fire]

----------------
On 4/28/2004 4:04:43 PM antigoon wrote:

So Rhino (and others),

From the posts, I can gather that Eightstar's quality control and consistency is second to none.

But I can't tell whether this means that every one of their diamonds simply outperforms all other diamonds, or rather that every one of their diamonds is as good as the best of all other diamonds.

Judging purely on cut (not on price), suppose you had a choice between a known good diamond (low HCA, h/vh on the Brilliantscope, great Isee2 score), and commissioning an eightstar which you would have to commit to sight unseen. What would you see as the pros and cons of each choice?

Thanks,
Steve
----------------

steve,
yesterday i went to look at some 8* and compared it to my heart and arrow ideal cut. i guess the difference is the 8* has smaller sparkles. my ideal cut has bigger flashes. i was looking at a K VS1 8*. 1.09 ct. they wanted $7900 for this stone. pretty big premium compared to a heart and arrow ideal cut. the sales person showed me the stone with a firescope. showing that has no light leakage (all red). but on the other hand, some people would prefer some light leakage along the edge for contrast.

 

[Boom]

On 4/28/2004 6:42:18 PM vtigger86 wrote:

i guess the difference is the 8* has smaller sparkles. my ideal cut has bigger flashes. --------

This is the first time I've heard this, usually the observation is that 8*s have bigger, bolder flashes and other ideal cut stones have more but smaller, tinkling sparkles. This is my personal experience as well as others whom I've spoken to. It would be interesting to see your stone in real life, must be very nice.

 

[valeria101]

For better of for worse, 8* does not claim that all their diamonds are cut to look the same in the smallest detail - somewhere beyond the first page of the website they say that each diamond is cut to show "it's best" whatever that might be. In the argument, the concept of external symmetry (as appears on GIA papers, for example) is trashed in favor of the more misterious optical symmetry which they claim to construct to suit the characteristics of each diamond.

Conclusion? There is some variance among 8*s and their tollerance limits are not published/explained anywhere, for better or for worse. So... the discussion of what various small cut shifts (in the respective angles and minor facets and what not) do to the brilliance, contrast and fire (I bet contrast and the available light gives the small flash/broad flash impression) remains opoened as it remains opened for H&As or any other ideal.

The chat on this thread is probably getting to smaller detail than intended in the definition of H&A already...

 

[Dancing Fire]

----------------
On 4/29/2004 3:33:31 AM Boom wrote:

On 4/28/2004 6:42:18 PM vtigger86 wrote:

i guess the difference is the 8* has smaller sparkles. my ideal cut has bigger flashes. --------

This is the first time I've heard this, usually the observation is that 8*s have bigger, bolder flashes and other ideal cut stones have more but smaller, tinkling sparkles. This is my personal experience as well as others whom I've spoken to. It would be interesting to see your stone in real life, must be very nice.
----------------

Boom,
could it be that i was comparing my ideal cut, which is 3+ ct. to a 8* that is 1.09 ct.? maybe that's the reason. at least to my eyes that the ideal cut shows more of a bigger flash.

 

[Boom]

----------------
On 4/29/2004 8:17:41 PM vtigger86 wrote:


could it be that i was comparing my ideal cut, which is 3+ ct. to a 8* that is 1.09 ct.? maybe that's the reason. at least to my eyes that the ideal cut shows more of a bigger flash.----------------

Ah, that explains it. Your diamond has much bigger facets than the 8* to begin with. If you get a chance to view an 8* similar in size to your stone, please let us know your observations.

 

[valeria101]

On 4/28/2004 4:04:43 PM antigoon wrote:

So Rhino (and others),


But I can't tell whether this means that every one of their diamonds simply outperforms all other diamonds, or rather that every one of their diamonds is as good as the best of all other diamonds.

----------------[/quote]



As far as the available means to represent a diamond go (tests, pictures, etc.) the anwer would be "every one of their diamonds is as good as the best of all other diamonds".

So, 8* is right to say that on AVERAGE their stones are the best - sure that 'cause they allow for the least variation among their stones and hold the highest lower threshold. However, each RBC's cut is repeatable.

I think GooD Old Gold used to have some 8* listed among the "educational diamonds" - one of the best stones.

 

[Dancing Fire]

----------------
On 4/30/2004 4:04:24 AM Boom wrote:

----------------
On 4/29/2004 8:17:41 PM vtigger86 wrote:


could it be that i was comparing my ideal cut, which is 3+ ct. to a 8* that is 1.09 ct.? maybe that's the reason. at least to my eyes that the ideal cut shows more of a bigger flash.----------------

Ah, that explains it. Your diamond has much bigger facets than the 8* to begin with. If you get a chance to view an 8* similar in size to your stone, please let us know your observations.

----------------

BOOM

The biggest 8* that the dealer has was the 1.09 CT. He didn't have a 3 plus CT for me to compare with my ideal cut, but my sister-in-law has a 1.18 ct 8* I VVS1 and you could spot the 8 dark bold arrows right away.

 

[Rhino]

Before anyone puts words in my mouth ... I have not said that 8* is "the best". I have said that among the brands I have seen, their QA is 2nd to none. Richard's QA is the FireScope(tm) ... period. It's not a GIA rating nor is it the AGS rating for that matter as I've personally seen 8*'s fall outside of AGS "0" parameters (even down to a "2") and GIA polish/symmetry ratings down to a "good". Richard's conviction is that stones produced according to the signature 8* firescope image are the most beautiful stones. There is a very limited set of proportions and minor facet cutting that will attain the 8* signature. That is his opinion and it is a respected one at that. I have worked with the FireScope(tm) and have inspected many stones with it and I understand his thinking. I have also worked with many other technologies since the FireScope and have learned to think outside the box of the FireScope alone. My experience using this type of technology has grown tremendously over the years and respect the information it shows me. Working with these other technologies (B'scope, Isee2, LightScope, etc.) has forced me to consider things about brilliance and diamond appearance I had never thought to consider before and has taken me on a journey in the exploration of the appearance of diamonds in all types of lighting conditions. There are lighting conditions that really flatter 8*'s ... some more than others. There are also lighting conditions that do not flatter that cutting style as much as others. To make a long story short ... yes 8*'s are beautiful stones no doubt. The most beautiful? IMO no but I don't attempt to answer that question for others. I say see all your options and *you* make the choice.