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EGLUS Princess w/ AGA total score 0.1 away 1B

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
I've been actively shopping for an ER. So far the Diamond that i'm the most interested/excited about is...

Princess Cut
Weight: 1.5ctw
Clarity: SI1
Color: G
Length: 6.46
Width: 6.29
Depth: 4.62
Table: 75%
Crown Height: 8.4
Polish: VG
Symmetry: VG

after playing with the AGA calculator on PS for awhile and playing with the numbers I realized that if I raised the Crown Height of my stone to 8.5 from 8.4, so a 0.1 difference changes the total score t to 1B. Is the fact that it is so close to a 1B significant? Am I correct that this means the stone has a fantastic cut?

The stone is not GIA certified, it was certified through EGLUS.
I looked at it side by side with other SI1, G and H stones as well as VS1VS2 G, H and I stones that were GIA certified. This stone had a lower price point based on the fact that it was a EGLUS. The Sales Associate said they usually put the EGLUS stones at a lower price point due to it being considered a lesser lab. She also said that she mostly see the soft rating in color. After looking intently at it with 10x it seemed like it's clarity was more comparable to the VS1 VS2 stones, and it seemed is color looked closer to the H stones than G stones. So basically it looked a little better in clarity and slightly less in color.

At $9.2K does this sound like a stone I should be concerned about or a fair price? It seems there are stones on the Internet that are comparable and at a lesser price point, but in jewelry stores in my area this seems to be a good fair deal as most are 11-12K?

I'd appreciate any insight into this particular diamond and situation. As of right now this seems like a fair deal to me, are the any other factors that I should consider? Or other aspects of the diamond I should look at?
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
926
All EGL stones are over priced.

Okay, maybe not ALL. But the exceptions are usually oddities like antique stones or lab grown stones.

Here's how it works. A jeweler looks at a stone. They know how to grade stones--maybe not all the subtleties of it, but they know the basics. The jeweler determines how much they could sell the stone for if it were GIA graded.

There's something called the "EGL Discount." It's about 2.5 grades in color, clarity or both. The owner sends the stone to EGL. If the grade comes back less than 2.5 grades off, that certificate goes in the drawer and it's sold as a GIA. Or they send it to one of the other EGL labs--EGL doesn't care.

If a stone is sold as an EGL, you can safely assume that it's off MORE than 2.5 grades, because if it weren't, it wouldn't be sold as an EGL. A GIA with accurate grades will be no more expensive, and usually will be less.

Your impression of the stone is unlikely to be as accurate as that of the person who chose to stick the EGL certificate on that stone. If you like the color and clarity, you should be able to find a cheaper GIA stone you like as well.
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
I looked at it in a large line up of all GIA stones, it was the only EGLUS stone that I looked at. It definitely didn't appear inferior from a clarity stand point. I thought maybe the cut was the issue, but after looking at the numbers in the AGA calculator it appeared the cut was better than good or just okay. I've conceded that even though it's graded as a G it may be closer to an H.

It seems that as soon as a stone is labeled EGLUS it is written off completely by a lot of folks. If EGLUS are such screw ups and grade soft for lesser diamonds is it not possible that they are equally screw ups while grading better stones a little low sometimes? Or is it just methodical institutional over grading of poor stones? Also why price the stone at a lower price point if your saying they are always over? It appeared to be able to sit side by side with GIA VS1 and VS2 stones and hold its own.

I don't know enough to understand the ins and outs, for all I know it's just a sales persons parlor trick.
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
Another thing that I liked about this stone was the 75% table. On a Princess 1.5ctw that sized table was impressive, gave it a visibly larger appearance than other comparable stones.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,192
Austin,
Sounds like you are keeping an open mind in your search, and that will serve you well. There is a saying which I partially subscribe to that "you are buying a diamond, not a piece of paper". The idea is to prioritize what you see and what you like as well as the other aspects of the transaction, merchant, benefits, assurances etc.

However, one thing to bear in mind is that if you ever want to sell or trade the diamond, the "paper" will matter a great deal.

In terms of cut quality, which you seem to have a keen interest in, the only top tier lab doing light performance grading on princess cuts is AGSL. You may want to take a look at this article to see how they approach the subject.

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/ags-laboratories-diamond-cut-grading-princess-cut

You might note in the "generalizations" section near the end of the article that it is rare for a princess with table greater than 70 to achieve top light performance.
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
21,683
AustinNewbie|1453175368|3977781 said:
Another thing that I liked about this stone was the 75% table. On a Princess 1.5ctw that sized table was impressive, gave it a visibly larger appearance than other comparable stones.
Just be aware that most* people do not like larger tables on princess cuts. In certain lighting you just get one big square of glare
off the table. Look for stones that have a smaller table then depth. Branded princess cut stones like Solasfera have much smaller
tables.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/ecommerce/0.99ct-i-si1-solasfera-princess-cut-diamond.html

Your personal preference may be for larger tables though.

FYI - I tend to look for tables that are not completely square. They need to have some arch to them to make them attractive (IMO).
This is a personal preference.
For example...look at the table on this stone...
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/2.11-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-686508 75% very square table

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.57-carat-g-color-si1-clarity-sku-804184 75% table with arched outline

I* like to see border around my tables so I like something more like this look...again, personal preference.
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/2.16-carat-d-color-vs2-clarity-sku-324400
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
When you say arched are you referring to the crown height being more? Does the lesser crown height give the head of the diamond a flatter look? Is that what creates the glare effect?

Honestly I've been so concerned with making sure that the diamond is brilliant and shows fire with a good amount of light returning from the diamond, and trying to avoid dark or fish eyed diamonds, that I hadn't thought about glare from the surface being an issue.
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
Leaguer:

That was a very interesting article. Much was over my head, but what a great resource while looking for a Princess stone.

As far as the 75 table.
On other areas of PS I've seen guys getting beat up for purchasing diamonds that were thin or elongated. Basically people telling them that the are paying for "example" 1.5ctw but the diamond will appear smaller once set, and advising them to purchase a less ctw stone if they are happy with the smaller appearance. Also, explaining that those stones would not return light properly.

So I thought heck I'm looking at a stone that I think actually has better clarity than graded, a stone that appears larger than others with same ctw and it grades well on the AGA calculator.
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
Thinking about this table % issue this afternoon I came to the conclusion that the thing that kinda impressed me and what is keeping it from being an Ideal cut, is that it actually looks like a bigger diamond than it is. Haha

On another note: If vendor offers lifetime upgrades with no limitations on dollar amount. They don't require double the price for an upgrade. Does that effectively ease the worries about resale since it's not a GIA stone. Basically I could walk in at anytime and trade it for a GIA stone and get 100% value. Any opinions? I'd appreciate any and all
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,192
AustinNewbie|1453240339|3978158 said:
Thinking about this table % issue this afternoon I came to the conclusion that the thing that kinda impressed me and what is keeping it from being an Ideal cut, is that it actually looks like a bigger diamond than it is. Haha

On another note: If vendor offers lifetime upgrades with no limitations on dollar amount. They don't require double the price for an upgrade. Does that effectively ease the worries about resale since it's not a GIA stone. Basically I could walk in at anytime and trade it for a GIA stone and get 100% value. Any opinions? I'd appreciate any and all
A solid trade-up policy from a solid company is a really good benefit. Get it in writing and understand the policy well, especially any exclusions that may apply. If the trade-up is limited to in-stock diamonds for instance, make sure the company stocks a significant inventory of diamonds of the kind you will likely want to trade-up to. If possible, talk to other customers who have executed a traded up with that company and determine if it was a satisfactory transaction.
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
Any opinions of the price point on this diamond at $9,200? This vendor supposedly does price matching. I have found a few diamonds online at a lower price point, maybe be able to haggle it down $800. Does this stone seem worth the trouble or should I keep looking? I would prefer to buy from a jeweler and not online. Local stores so far have seemed to have obviously lesser stones for more $.
 

Sunstorm

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
1,649
Austin but you are comparing apples to oranges. I cannot comment on the particular stone you selected but an overly large table does not equate a large face up necessarily. The outline of the stone itself can but that is not the table. Even then the outline or diameter may mean nothing because of poor light return. A very large table will just mean a not so well cut diamond and one that may have a larger diameter but may actually look smaller because of poor light return.

A round stone for example with a small table but a super ideal cut will look much larger than a stone which may have a much larger table, even a larger diameter but it is poorly cut and leaks light. The best way to see this would be by looking at different cut grades locally.

An ideal cut will always look larger regardless of the table size because it will properly return light around the edges too (again not talking about the table which is the center facet of the diamond), in poorly cut stones the edges and/or the area under the table table may be blurred out thus creating a visually smaller look.

And again how large a stone faces up in diameter has nothing to do with table size. Someone else already mentioned here that a very large table in a princess can just look like a big glass window.

Table size is a matter of preference too, some like it larger, some smaller. That said you can variations within ideal cut diamonds too.

What the poster meant about the arch is not what you see from the side but what you see face on. The table is the smaller area within the face of the diamond. Arched there meaning the table is not cut geometrically square but the lines are softened, see the pix they showed you as examples. This is again a matter of preference.

I hope I was able to explain to you the issues you seemed to be confused about.

Please also note that comparing elongated thing stones to princesses with large or small tables is not a comparison, again you cannot compare apples to oranges. Entirely different issue.

Otherwise, people have and will help you select for some beautifully cut stones. Best of luck.
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
That was very helpful. I was confusing the table size with the size of the over all face up size of the stone. Which this particular stone seemed to have a large face compared to similar stones so I miss took that as the table % being the contributing factor.

I've been looking at ideal scope images of stones online. Is it normal practice for vendors to have an ideal scope image of all their inventory? If I asked for it would be something they should have? I'd like to request images of it so I can post them.
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
21,683
AustinNewbie|1453332010|3978799 said:
That was very helpful. I was confusing the table size with the size of the over all face up size of the stone. Which this particular stone seemed to have a large face compared to similar stones so I miss took that as the table % being the contributing factor.

I've been looking at ideal scope images of stones online. Is it normal practice for vendors to have an ideal scope image of all their inventory? If I asked for it would be something they should have? I'd like to request images of it so I can post them.
Unfortunately, most jewelers do not have them. You should ask though. Post images if you can get one.

Sunstorm did a great job at explaining what I was trying to say.

You really need to get them down on the price. You can get an H/SI1 BRANDED A CUT ABOVE AGS000 princess for the same price. That's a whole lot of pedigree and vetting, including ASET and ideal scope, to put up against your EGLUSA.

GIA graded princess cuts in that size/specs are running $7.1k-$8.6k.
EGL should run less then GIA so try hard to get them to come down further if you are set on this stone.

Good luck! Post images if you can get any.
 

AustinNewbie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
9
Thanks for all the help! I'm not 100% sold on this one, I just haven't found much better in my area so far. I haven't seen any in the $7K range but I have been seeing them in the $8k range. At this point I think this vendor is my favorite of what I have locally available, I'll probably continue to look at some others though. I will probably tell them at this point in not interested in this EGLUS diamond and ask them if they can match something like this.

http://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.55-carat-g-color-vs1-clarity-sku-609092
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,177
If you absolutely prefer working with a local dealer, find a dealer who can provide you a AGS000 stone with AGS Platinum report.
This report includes a computer generated ASET image.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.51-carat-i-color-vs2-clarity-sku-822530
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.52-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-771620
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut/1.52-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-sku-622896

Personally, I would not buy any princess cut diamond without
-GIA Report AND ASET provided by the vendor
or
-AGS Platinum Report with a computer generated ASET image

For me, GIA report alone is not enough for any fancy shape.
Based on quick research, there is no reason for you to make any compromise on quality and assurance with your budget.
 

Sunstorm

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
1,649
Austin and tyty thanks! I am embarrassed about how many typos I made but I tried to quickly explain some issues and hoping to clarify and not confuse further. I am glad if you understood my point Austin and was able to help.

The rest our wonderful prosumers here can help you with. :)
 
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