EGL vs. GIA/AGS

[chuck81]

I've done a lot of lurking here lately, trying to gauge the difference between GIA/AGS graded diamonds vs. EGL diamonds. The general sense I've gotten is this:
-GIA and AGS are the strictest, most reliable labs
-EGL is a softer grade
-EGL differs in grading between it's different iterations (Europe, USA, Israel, Antwerp)
-EGL USA is the strictest iteration
-EGL in its other iterations differs, generally, 1-2 grades in color and clarity
-EGL stones resell for significantly less than GIA or AGS stones
-Retailers send stones to specific labs to maximize profit

Of course, I have been looking for an engagement diamond and this is why I have been lurking. I've found some 3/4K EGL diamonds with G or better color, ideal cut and table/depth proportions within ideal/ex limits, ideal/ex polish and symmetry, vvs2 clarity. Allowing for a 1 grade difference in color and clarity, GIA stones are significantly more expensive. Allowing for a 2 grade difference, the stones are more or less equivalent, with GIA still being slightly (1-300 dollars) more expensive.
I assume that the EGL stones are thought to be 2 grades lower, and less desirable, accounting for the GIA stones (more desirable) at 2 grades below being more expensive.
Here is my dilemma: do I purchase an F or G, VVS2 stone (with faint blue fluorescence) from EGL (Europe), or an H or I, vs2 stone from GIA. Keep mind, 1) these are blind(ish) web buys (I'll look at photos before I buy, get a Sarin, and have a 30 day return window so if after I have it appraised, the stone is really off, I can bring it back). 2) I DO NOT care about resale value. This is for an engagement ring. We will have this stone for the next 50 years, and probably leave it to kids/grandkids. It will have sentimental value, and stay in the family. Resale value consideration plays NO PART in my decision. (And if something happens where that doesn't come to frution, I'll have nothing to do with the resale anyway. That won't happen, but just for you "what-ifer's")
I'm not looking for a crazy bargain, just to maximize the diamond per dollar spent. It seems to me that EGL offers this potential more so than GIA/AGS.
Clearly, I'm leaning toward EGl. I like the idea of maximizing value, and getting an F EGL (really G or H) with faint med fluorescence (to bring the color grade up ever so slightly) seems like a good way to do it for me. Or maybe I'm just cheap.
Thoughts? Thanks everyone, in advance.

 

[Dreamer_D]

EGL fools consumers into thinking they are getting more bang for their buck.

You are not. Vendors choose which lab to send their diamonds to, and they send stones to EGL only when they will get MORE money for the diamond with an EGL report than with a GIA report.

You cannot "game the system" by converting EGL grades to GIA grades. EGL is inconsistent with its grading and that makes a conversion impossible. It is part of how EGL messes with consumers.

There is one rule to EGL stones: You are paying too much for what you are getting. Period. Full stop.

Buy a GIA diamond or AGS diamond and accept that you would "feel" like your money is going as far. But you are actually getting more for your money. And you are spending your money wisely.

 

[Dreamer_D]

More information here: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]

Read it carefully and take it in.

 

[Dancing Fire]

don't play the guessing game b/c you will lose!

 

[webdiva]

Ditto what Dreamer said! We get at least one post like this a week. Many of us started out thinking the same thing. Bottom line: you can't game the system. Diamond wholesalers have been in this business for years, they know what they're doing.

You have 2 choices:
1. Maximize your budget by lowering clarity and color, going with a fantastic cut so it's super sparkly (AGS/GIA only).
2. Buy a great cut diamond second hand.

If you want to catch some good deals, you'll need to start reading up in the knowledge section on here and finding the few needles in the haystack on James Allen that are priced slightly below value. Choosing fluorescence is also a great way to lower the price. Or have the members here find you one.

We can help. What is your budget, targeted size and what type of setting are you looking for? Looks like $4k is the budget? With setting?

 

[SB621]

I feel on PS the general approach will always be to never get EGL diamonds. However, MANY PSers have them and they look lovely! I myself have one (store only sold EGL graded diamonds), but my stone has great color, great cut and scored a 1.0 on the H&A test. I get complimented on it ALL the time and truly I think it looks much better then many GIA graded stones.

Now with all that said am I a diamond expert? Of course not, Dreamer has so much more experience and knowledge then I will every have. However, to me the, non diamond expert, no on is going to ask me who graded my diamond. To me it looks beautiful and I love it. As mentioned before I think it looks better then other diamonds I have seen. I dont' think that many of the PSers who have EGL diamonds speak up on this issue, they are almost made to feel ashamed but we still OHHHH and AWWWW when they post their glamour shots. But I"m digressing...

To answer your questions I would get the diamond that makes the most sense to you. If you are leaning towards the EGL then get it. You mentioned the return policy is very reasonable t0o so if you get it and hate it- then return it. No harm done. If you want the stricker lab report and feel that GIA will stand the test of time then get a GIA graded diamond. While I think reports, ASETs, Sarins and all the tech stuff you can get on diamonds is neat, I personally just want to see it. If I love it then it is mine. I think once you see the diamonds(s) you will know which one you like better. Goodluck on your diamond search and proposal!

 

[Christina...]

IMO it never makes sense for a novice diamond buyer to purchase an EGL graded diamond. Without an accurately graded report you will have no idea what you are purchasing and therefore won't be able to compare your stone to others for value. Yes, on average EGL is off by two color and clarity grades, however we have seen them be off by as many as 5-8! The other problem is that because of EGLs inconsistency in grading, it's impossible to even compare one EGL stone to another. For instance....suppose I'm shopping online and find two EGL ideal cut 1ct G VS1's, both are $5k, I order both stones to evaluate for myself, when they arrive I take them to my independent appraiser for his opinion and find out that one of the stones is an H SI1, and the other is K SI2. How is that possible? EGL graded both of the stones, so you would assume that even if they are notoriously 1-2 color grades off, then they would be consistently 1-2 color grades off right? Nope!

Like sarahbear said, I think it's possible to find a beautiful EGL diamond, it's not like they send all the ugly diamonds to EGL. My beef with EGL is that you can never be sure what your are buying without sending the stone off to GIA or AGS for regrading, and if you are going to do that, then why not buy GIA/AGS in the first place?

 

[Dreamer_D]

I feel on PS the general approach will always be to never get EGL diamonds. However, MANY PSers have them and they look lovely! I myself have one (store only sold EGL graded diamonds), but my stone has great color, great cut and scored a 1.0 on the H&A test. I get complimented on it ALL the time and truly I think it looks much better then many GIA graded stones.

The issue with EGL is not about beauty. It is about economics. Of course there are beutiful diamonds with EGL reports. But they are priced too high for what they are. Diamonds are targeted to the lab that will grner the seller the most money. So stones are sent to EGL because the seller knows that IF they sent it to GIA it would get a grade that would garner less money on the open market than the seller would be able to get if they sent the stone to EGL. THAT is the issue.

I think consumers needto be careful when spending 1000s of dollars not to let their hearts guide the decision. They should use their heads too.

And nothing I have posted is to malign the diamonds themselves. My posts about EGL concern the economics of the diamond market, and the reality that we as consumers cannot bea tthe system: EGL stones are not the deal they appear to be.

 

[chuck81]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Yeah Diva, 4K for the ring is my budget. She likes antique style/filigree basket settings. White gold or Platinum. I have a large yellow gold ring from my late grandfather that I initially wanted to have melted down and made into her setting and our bands, but the logistics of turning that into an ornate white gold setting don't seem feasible. So I will either find a vintage setting or a replica, I'm not sure. I haven't given as much thought to the setting yet, I'm focused on learning as much as I can about diamonds.

As far as the GIA vs. EGL controversy, I absolutely understand the preference for GIA over EGL. GIA offers peace of mind, consistency, etc
The thing I don't quite understand is that EGL is known for being 2 grades off. But when I go down 2 grades on GIA diamonds, they are still more expensive. I have to go 3 grades down to see EGL diamonds be more expensive. If dealers send diamonds where they'll get a grade that maximizes profit ( which makes sense of course), then something else must be off about EGL stones as well. I assume polish and symmetry grades are also unreliable? I havent seen much about this though.

At any rate, my thinking is this: cut seems to matter the most as far as having a brilliant, scintillating stone. If the EGL stone is within ideal parameters, won't it still be a nice stone? I mean, if they can't measure and divide properly, then yeah, I wouldn't have anything to do with them. I keep seeing people write that dealers send stones where the grades will maximize profit. Why would a dealer ever send an ideal stone to EGL? Really, what are the reasons? Fish eye? (Which I don't even know if that can be an issue on ideal stones). What else? Mediocre polish that can be softly (up)graded? What I am looking for is, preferably, people who have some experience With his firsthand. I understand the general tone of the forum beig pro GIA, anti-EGL. I think I understand why. I suppose what I need is more convincing.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I feel on PS the general approach will always be to never get EGL diamonds. However, MANY PSers have them and they look lovely! I myself have one (store only sold EGL graded diamonds), but my stone has great color, great cut and scored a 1.0 on the H&A test. I get complimented on it ALL the time and truly I think it looks much better then many GIA graded stones.

The issue with EGL is not about beauty. It is about economics. Of course there are beutiful diamonds with EGL reports. But they are priced too high for what they are. Diamonds are targeted to the lab that will grner the seller the most money. So stones are sent to EGL because the seller knows that IF they sent it to GIA it would get a grade that would garner less money on the open market than the seller would be able to get if they sent the stone to EGL. THAT is the issue.

I think consumers needto be careful when spending 1000s of dollars not to let their hearts guide the decision. They should use their heads too.

And nothing I have posted is to malign the diamonds themselves. My posts about EGL concern the economics of the diamond market, and the reality that we as consumers cannot bea tthe system: EGL stones are not the deal they appear to be.

This seems to be the one fact about this debate that is too often overlooked. It has nothing to do with a stone's beauty but everything to do with the economics of it.

 

[UberClaire]

The thing I don't quite understand is that EGL is known for being 2 grades off. But when I go down 2 grades on GIA diamonds, they are still more expensive. I have to go 3 grades down to see EGL diamonds be more expensive.

From what I understand, EGL diamonds are on *average* 2 grades off. I recently saw a thread on here where an EGL-graded stone was FIVE color grades lower than what GIA graded the stone as.

 

[Christina...]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Yeah Diva, 4K for the ring is my budget. She likes antique style/filigree basket settings. White gold or Platinum. I have a large yellow gold ring from my late grandfather that I initially wanted to have melted down and made into her setting and our bands, but the logistics of turning that into an ornate white gold setting don't seem feasible. So I will either find a vintage setting or a replica, I'm not sure. I haven't given as much thought to the setting yet, I'm focused on learning as much as I can about diamonds.

As far as the GIA vs. EGL controversy, I absolutely understand the preference for GIA over EGL. GIA offers peace of mind, consistency, etc
The thing I don't quite understand is that EGL is known for being 2 grades off. But when I go down 2 grades on GIA diamonds, they are still more expensive. I have to go 3 grades down to see EGL diamonds be more expensive. If dealers send diamonds where they'll get a grade that maximizes profit ( which makes sense of course), then something else must be off about EGL stones as well. I assume polish and symmetry grades are also unreliable? I havent seen much about this though.

At any rate, my thinking is this: cut seems to matter the most as far as having a brilliant, scintillating stone. If the EGL stone is within ideal parameters, won't it still be a nice stone? I mean, if they can't measure and divide properly, then yeah, I wouldn't have anything to do with them. I keep seeing people write that dealers send stones where the grades will maximize profit. Why would a dealer ever send an ideal stone to EGL? Really, what are the reasons? Fish eye? (Which I don't even know if that can be an issue on ideal stones). What else? Mediocre polish that can be softly (up)graded? What I am looking for is, preferably, people who have some experience With his firsthand. I understand the general tone of the forum beig pro GIA, anti-EGL. I think I understand why. I suppose what I need is more convincing.

Thanks again, everyone.

EGL has it's own cut requirements so don't assume an EGL ideal cut will be comparable to a AGS ideal cut. You will need to get idealscope images regardless of which lab you use to determine if the stone will have optimal light performance. But again, I would mention that EGL USA tends to be off an average of two color grades. What we are trying to tell you is that you won't know if your stone is one that is 'average' or if it's off my the 5 or more grades that we have seen too often on these boards. There is just too much involed to try to make comparisons work

check out this thread if you need more convincing...

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thers-something-about-paper-why-arent-you-mad.176233/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thers-something-about-paper-why-arent-you-mad.176233/[/URL]

 

[denverappraiser]

The vast majority of stones submitted to the labs are from cutters. I suspect it’s over 90% but this is a closely guarded statistic. EVERY cutter in the world has or can get an account at any lab they want to work with. Most work with many simultaneously. Realistically there’s only about half a dozen choices and I guarantee that they are both well aware of their options and are making this choice strategically. Wouldn’t you in their situation?

If a cutter sends a stone to EGL that would have brought more money with GIA or some other brand of papers, that’s a mistake, and possibly a serious one.

If an importer receives a stone with EGL paperwork that would sell for more or faster with different documentation and they keep it as an EGL, that’s a mistake.

Are there errors that slip through? Yes. And you very well might find one. You’re playing a betting game, and who you’re betting against is the above folks. They make their decision based on their own expertise and years or even decades of experience. It didn't come off the wheel with EGL branding, someone CHOSE to send it to them. They make a fair amount of their living at exactly this and they do it on a daily basis with the stone in hand to either personally grade or show to their staff. If it doesn’t work out like they expect they even have the opportunity to do it again and leaving no trace of the history. You’ve got nothing but the EGL report and confidence that you can convert it to a different grading scale by subtracting 2 grades. Maybe so, and you may win here, but if I was a betting man, I’d bet against. Wouldn’t you?

 

[Dreamer_D]

The deviations between GIA and EGL are accross the board. Polish and symmetry are usually different. The way that EGL calculated the cut indices are different and usually more generous. Clarity and color are off. I believe carat is consistent

You cannot just use a "two grades" translation. If you want to know the GIA equivalent of an EGL stone you are considering, then take the PRICE of the EGL stone and look at what that dollar amount would buy you in a GIA stone of similar carat weight. That is the better way to convert, if you must. And even then its likely inflated since cutters target stones to EGL to make more money.

The people who cut diamonds are brilliant business people. They know what they are doing. EGL as a lab exists for one purpse: To allow diamond dealers to make more money on diamonds that in some way would not bring in top dollar with a GIA or AGS lab report.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I feel on PS the general approach will always be to never get EGL diamonds. However, MANY PSers have them and they look lovely! I myself have one (store only sold EGL graded diamonds), but my stone has great color, great cut and scored a 1.0 on the H&A test. I get complimented on it ALL the time and truly I think it looks much better then many GIA graded stones.

The issue with EGL is not about beauty. It is about economics. Of course there are beutiful diamonds with EGL reports. But they are priced too high for what they are. Diamonds are targeted to the lab that will grner the seller the most money. So stones are sent to EGL because the seller knows that IF they sent it to GIA it would get a grade that would garner less money on the open market than the seller would be able to get if they sent the stone to EGL. THAT is the issue.

I think consumers needto be careful when spending 1000s of dollars not to let their hearts guide the decision. They should use their heads too.

And nothing I have posted is to malign the diamonds themselves. My posts about EGL concern the economics of the diamond market, and the reality that we as consumers cannot bea tthe system: EGL stones are not the deal they appear to be.

This seems to be the one fact about this debate that is too often overlooked. It has nothing to do with a stone's beauty but everything to do with the economics of it.

Exactly, and yet time and again people like the OP post about how they want to make their dollar go further by buying an EGL certed RB. That is buying into the marketing hype. They only THINK their dollar goes further. It is a very successful ploy on the part of the diamond industry.

And regarding beauty, I happen to own diamond with EGL reports that are very beautiful They are old cuts, and the same *economics* don't apply at present to that market (or some of the same economics apply, but its a niche -- other threads have covered this). But I would not buy a modern round brilliant with an EGL report for the simple fact that I would know that I was paying too much for what I was getting, and that ticks me off.