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EGL v. GIA - Worth a difference of $7k?

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Rainmaker

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I recently found this 2.02 E VVS2 Emerald cut EGL certified diamond below on Whiteflash for approx $13k:

http://www.whiteflash.com/emerald/Emerald-cut-diamond-182584.htm

I have read numerous articles that say GIA is stricter and better than EGL in many instances especially with regard to smaller diamonds and color. I just wanted to get people''s thoughts on this issue. Let''s assume that the diamond is actually 2.02 F VS1, a notch lower for color and clarity. The diamond would still cost around $20k for a GIA certified diamond based on my Pricescope search. I would be extremely happy with an F VS1 for $13k. It seems that a $7k is unjustifiable in this instance. Any thoughts?
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
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what''s 7K vs $50? have it called in, I say. most in the trade believe the market is too efficient to just let 7K be lost, and you almost always get what you pay.
 

Rainmaker

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So you think I should have Whiteflash call the diamond and examine it for me?
 

Finding_Neverland

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It''s a virtual diamond. White Flash does not physically have that diamond in house. The same diamond is listed by a couple other Vendors.

If you''re seriously interested, give White Flash a call and ask about the diamond. White Flash can contact the Broker for further information about this particular diamond. If White Flash is satisfied it''s worth a look see, they''ll be more than happy to bring it in to their office for an up close and personal evaluation.
 

starryeyed

Ideal_Rock
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Hi Rainmaker and Welcome to Pricescope!


Thanks for asking this question! I wonder too! I had seen an EGL-certified diamond, asscher cut, and it seemed like a great deal. I had louped the diamond and compared it against my studs for color. The cert seemed pretty accurate (although I''m not a professional). I wondered about the polish and symmetry grades - these I couldn''t really tell.

From what I understand a lot depends on which EGL lab the cert comes from. EGL in LA is stricter than some of the international EGL labs, supposedly.

If you do call the stone in, you may want to ask WF if their upgrade policy would still apply to an EGL stone. I''m not sure if this is important to you, but it could be.

Please let us know what WF says - a lot of people ask about EGL, so it would be nice to have some good info!
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 2/5/2007 7:39:50 PM
Author: starryeyed
Hi Rainmaker and Welcome to Pricescope!


Thanks for asking this question! I wonder too! I had seen an EGL-certified diamond, asscher cut, and it seemed like a great deal. I had louped the diamond and compared it against my studs for color. The cert seemed pretty accurate (although I''m not a professional). I wondered about the polish and symmetry grades - these I couldn''t really tell.

From what I understand a lot depends on which EGL lab the cert comes from. EGL in LA is stricter than some of the international EGL labs, supposedly.

If you do call the stone in, you may want to ask WF if their upgrade policy would still apply to an EGL stone. I''m not sure if this is important to you, but it could be.

Please let us know what WF says - a lot of people ask about EGL, so it would be nice to have some good info!
WF doesn''t accept EGL graded diamonds for trade up
 

kenny

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Diamond is diamond.
I would not pay $7000 extra just for the GIA paper, if I somehow knew the diamond was the same.
In one sense I don't care which lab grades my stone.
All that matters is the stone itself and the price.

But the problem starts with *knowing* about the diamond.
I am not an expert with a lab full of equipment for evaluating gems.
I have to trust an expert to describe the diamond.
We are stuck with trusting the information on the report and the reputation of the lab that wrote it.
Because of reputation (or perception of reputation) a report from one lab adds more value than a report from another lab.
You are paying whatever the market will bear for a level of confidence.

So far the orginal poster has only made allowance for color and clarity, but there are other properties that may affect the value that may close that $7000 apparent gap.

With $7000 at stake if I smelled a bargain I'd consider getting it checked out by an appraiser, or perhaps the GIA itself.
But as has been said people in the diamond business have to run a pretty tight ship.
I don't think the seller would stay in business very long if she let a diamond go for $7000 less than it would have gotten if they had sent it to GIA.

If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.

There are lots of diamonds for sale with no report at all.
Someone like Garry could shop for them and depend on his own expertise to recognize a bargain.
It seems to me the less expertise you have the more you should stay with labs that have the best reputations.
 

Bunnifer

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Sep 26, 2006
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227
Date: 2/5/2007 7:09:19 PM
Author:Rainmaker
I recently found this 2.02 E VVS2 Emerald cut EGL certified diamond below on Whiteflash for approx $13k:


http://www.whiteflash.com/emerald/Emerald-cut-diamond-182584.htm


I have read numerous articles that say GIA is stricter and better than EGL in many instances especially with regard to smaller diamonds and color. I just wanted to get people's thoughts on this issue. Let's assume that the diamond is actually 2.02 F VS1, a notch lower for color and clarity. The diamond would still cost around $20k for a GIA certified diamond based on my Pricescope search. I would be extremely happy with an F VS1 for $13k. It seems that a $7k is unjustifiable in this instance. Any thoughts?
Ditto the sentiment to call it in and have it checked out by WF. If you're not an expert, you need to call upon the eyes of a TRUSTED expert to help you decide if it's worth it.

Something similar happened to me: I used a trusted PS-recommended vendor to source a center stone for me. He found an AGS 1.5 H/VS1 princess for almost $3K less than what other vendors were selling for similar stones. At first, I thought this *must* be a mistake, but after he called it in and both he and I looked at it, we decided it was a fantastic stone at a steal! I nabbed it right away. So, just because it sounds too good to be true doesn't *always* mean that it is. But, I think I was one of the lucky few, and I trusted my vendor.

Just to play devil's advocate, would you still feel the same if the diamond was TWO grades off (e.g., would you still be willing to pay $13K for a 2.02 G VS2) and the polish/symmetry were Good/Good? Depending on which EGL lab graded it, it's very possible the grading could be markedly off (so two grades off for color/clarity and/or a grade off for polish/symmetry is not totally outlandish.)
 

Ellen

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Date: 2/6/2007 7:58:20 AM
Author: kenny
Diamond is diamond.
I would not pay $7000 extra just for the GIA paper, if I somehow knew the diamond was the same.
In one sense I don''t care which lab grades my stone.
All that matters is the stone itself and the price.
kenny, are you serious?

You just posted this yesterday.


"Visualize a target with smaller circles inside larger circles.

Let''s just say GIA Excellent is not the smallest circle in the middle.

(There is some overlap but I think of AGS''s top cut grade, and a good HCA score, as an even smaller circle closer to the center, the goal.)

This commoner shoots for the bullseye. "


And this a few days ago.


"Brutally honest?
Okay, buy a stone with AGS paper.
Only the best stones go to AGS.

You asked."



Which is it?
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Actually yes I AM serious.
Read my *whole* post.
It makes a point.

A diamond is a diamond and the paper doesn't change the diamond.
But the paper, and who issued it, DOES instill confidence in a price.
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I did read it all kenny, but to me, it''s either/or. Either you believe what you posted that I highlighted, and go on the diamond itself and the advice of a pro, or you don''t.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I believe what I wrote.
To me the posts don't cancel each other out.
They say different things that both coexist.
I admit it is a paradox.

I am okay with the paradox.
The paradox covers the different sides of what I believe is the truth.
Better paper doesn't improve the diamond, it only improves your confidence in the diamond.

Notice the phrase, "In one sense. . ."
 

Ellen

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Date: 2/6/2007 10:17:41 AM
Author: kenny
I believe what I wrote.
To me the posts don''t cancel each other out.
They say different things that both coexist.
I admit it is a paradox.

I am okay with the paradox.
The paradox covers the different sides of what I believe is the truth.
Better paper doesn''t improve the diamond, it only improves your confidence in the diamond.

Notice the phrase, ''In one sense. . .''
Indeed.
 

kenny

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Ellen I think this sentence of my post is key, but you left it out in your quote:

"I would not pay $7000 extra just for the GIA paper, if I somehow knew the diamond was the same."
 

Ellen

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Date: 2/6/2007 10:32:47 AM
Author: kenny
Ellen I think this sentence of my post is key, but you left it out in your quote:

''I would not pay $7000 extra just for the GIA paper, if I somehow knew the diamond was the same.''
kenny, I left it out, because to me it made no difference.

You have dogged GIA Ex round stones, and yet, wouldn''t that philosophy hold up if it were cut to the same level as an AGS000? Of which I own one.

You talked in that post yesterday (HCA thread) of wanting a good HCA score and an AGS000, right in the bullseye, as if a GIA EX couldn''t get there. ( that MAY not have been what you meant, frankly I don''t know what you mean anymore, but that''s the way it read) I tried to show you the HCA results of my stone compared to the AGS000 that ILikeBond posted, but the resulting links wouldn''t show. If you''re curious, run his through, and then run mine through.


61.2
56
34
41
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I like what I percieve to be the best cut.
My opinion is AGS has a smaller number of combos in its top cut grade than GIA does.
I like that.

I percieve AGS to be more consumer-advocate oriented than GIA, which includes more steep deeps in its top cut grade, which the industry loves because it preserves that precious rough for the masses who only understand "I want a 1 carat."

I prefer an HCA of 1 to 1.5.
WhY? - that's just my bias based on reading here for a while.

Is it possible a stone from GIA, EGL IGI or with no paper at all could have these properties and be at the bullseye of optimum cut (however you define it) ?
Sure.
If it does I'd be glad to buy it.

But how will I know?
 

Ellen

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Date: 2/6/2007 10:57:35 AM
Author: kenny
I like what I percieve to be the best cut.
My opinion is AGS has a smaller number of combos in its top cut grade than GIA does.
I like that.

I percieve AGS to be more consumer-advocate oriented than GIA.

I prefer an HCA of 1 to 1.5. WhY? - just my bias based on reading here for a while.

It is possible a stone from GIA, EGL IGI or with no paper at all to have these properties.
If it does I''d be glad to buy it

But how will I know?
You buy from a reputable vendor who gives you all the info you need.

kenny, I am honestly not trying to pick on you, but your inconsistent posts have upset me. Not so much for me personally, because I know what I know, but more for the lurkers out there searching. How in the world are they supposed to make heads or tails out of your extremely ambiguous posts?

You need to remember, we have a responsibility, to the best of our ability, to accurately portray information/our views on here.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Ellen, I appreciate the feedback.
I need to be more clear.
I'll work on that.
Thank you.

This subject is very nuanced though and doesn't fit into a neat tidy box.
 

Ellen

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Date: 2/6/2007 11:18:16 AM
Author: kenny
Ellen, I appreciate the feedback.
I need to be more clear.
I''ll work on that.
Thank you.

This subject is very nuanced though and doesn''t fit into a neat tidy box.
Sadly, no it doesn''t. All the more reason to choose our words carefully.
 

strmrdr

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23,295
If they are in any way comparable your going to find a typo.
Thats my bet on it, when/if its called in there going to hear that thats not the right price or the right color or the right clarity.
Even EGL-Isreal isnt going to be a 7k difference.
 

diamondseeker2006

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Date: 2/6/2007 11:59:10 AM
Author: strmrdr
If they are in any way comparable your going to find a typo.
Thats my bet on it, when/if its called in there going to hear that thats not the right price or the right color or the right clarity.
Even EGL-Isreal isnt going to be a 7k difference.
Exactly. Nobody is giving diamonds away with a $7000 discount. You get what you pay for, and often you overpay for what you get..especially when you go for a non-GIA or AGS cert.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 2/6/2007 12:04:23 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006


Date: 2/6/2007 11:59:10 AM
Author: strmrdr
If they are in any way comparable your going to find a typo.
Thats my bet on it, when/if its called in there going to hear that thats not the right price or the right color or the right clarity.
Even EGL-Isreal isnt going to be a 7k difference.
Exactly. Nobody is giving diamonds away with a $7000 discount. You get what you pay for, and often you overpay for what you get..especially when you go for a non-GIA or AGS cert.
So why do we see so many of these kind of posts?
Why is eBay/Jewelry TV so successful selling junk?
So many people think they can get the deal of a lifetime.
 

Rainmaker

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Feb 5, 2007
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Someone bought the diamond yesterday. I guess they thought it was a deal as well.
 

aljdewey

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Date: 2/6/2007 12:24:55 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 2/6/2007 12:04:23 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Exactly. Nobody is giving diamonds away with a $7000 discount. You get what you pay for, and often you overpay for what you get..especially when you go for a non-GIA or AGS cert.
So why do we see so many of these kind of posts?
Why is eBay/Jewelry TV so successful selling junk?
So many people think they can get the deal of a lifetime.
Ebay (and others) can successful selling junk because they rely on two categories of consumer:

1. "The oblivious", who have no idea that there is even a difference in quality and how that difference impacts price. To that type of consumer, a diamond is similar to a wine.......a wine is a wine is a wine, and all that differentiates them is "red" or "white". They see diamonds similary - they are all the same, so find the best price.

2, The "aware but don''t care" set......those who know that they could likely do better with a little research, but they are either 1) inherently too lazy to compare or 2) feel that the possible benefits wouldn''t justify the investment of their time.
 

belle

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i wonder what it''s like to be the rainmaker
i wonder what it''s like to know i make the rain

i couldn''t resist! love the name
 

DBM

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Generally I think among the reputable dealers EGLs are sold (or even questionable GIA certs like a really bad VS2,SI2 etc) at a fair market value for what the stone is truly considered by accepted GIA standards (give or take a little bit of a range of price for things that are borderline).

Even within one particular set of class, say G SI2 for example, depending on whether the SI2 is a BEAUTIFUL SI2 or a bad SI2 there can be several hundreds of dollars (if not in the thousands) difference between the 2. Ultimately a dealer sells his diamond for what he thinks it''s worth and relative to what his selling price patterns are in the past. If a normal SI2 is sold for x, a bad SI2 may be sold for a couple percentange discount points less. If an EGL stone is 1 or 2 colors off from the accepted GIA grading than a reputable jeweler prices accordingly.

While what i''m saying admittedly doesn''t offer much help to you in terms of gauging how good of a deal is for an EGL stone the point i''m trying to make is that if you trust the vendor''s judgment it may be best to ask the dealer himself how he feels the stone vs price is. Especially when dealing with someone who himself does not own the stone you have a good chance of getting a fair unbiased opinion and then going from there.
 
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