EGL-USA: Has Its Grading Improved?

[WPSon20]

Basic question... I spoke to a local appraiser who told me that, in her opinion, EGL-USA grading has been noticeably tighter in the last 2 years. There's no doubt that GIA/AGS get the best press, but, in reading these last few days, many respected voices around these parts have said there's perceptibly stricter grading at EGL-USA vs. International/Israel brands.

I'm wondering what, in your opinions, is a *reasonable expectation* for an EGL-USA stone as it relates to its color and clarity grades. I am particularly wondering if anyone else has similarly noticed tighter grading over the last two years. For example, do you think EGL-USA is usually off by one color grade more than they are off by one clarity grade? Both? Neither? More than one?

I'm just interested in generalities so that I can manage my own expectations and make an informed purchase.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Simple answer- no.
Although EGL-USA is the best of the lot, dealers still won;t accept the grades of anyone but GIA, or AGS.
If consumers want an accurately graded stone, they need to stick with AGS or GIA.
Sellers pushing EGL graded diamonds, and not informing the consumer are either unaware of the market, or attempting to deceive the buyer

 

[oldminer]

Although I tend to agree about the foreign EGL labs, I''d say they are in a far worse category then EGL-USA. Just change this quote with the red text added by me: "Sellers pushing EGL-non USA lab graded diamonds, and not informing the consumer are either unaware of the market, or attempting to deceive the buyer" Can any dealer or retailer truthfully say they are "unaware" of the diamond market? Let''s get real. We''re being nice.

EGL USA graded diamonds are graded like GIA or AGS some of the time and a bit weaker some of the time. The market adjusts the values and honest merchants adjust their retail prices according to the discount applied to non-GIA, non-AGS graded diamonds. What we found in the study of several years ago and what still applies today, is that there are distinct bargains of properly graded diamonds in those with EGL-USA grading. Surely, not every EGL-USA diamond is a "deal", but there are "some" or "a few" which are just about the best bargains one could hope for. Finding them is a challenge and I''d say most consumers find them simply by accident.

If one hopes to compete with GIA on a broad market basis, not like AGS at the very top of the market only, the competing lab must try very hard to offer similar grading to GIA at a better price and/or with better services. The competing lab cannot grade more harshly than GIA or they would lose their clients rapidly. So, what''s left? The competing lab MUST grade the same as or a step weaker than GIA. There is no other logical or possible solution or choice. Color and clarity grades, while well understood, still have borderline calls and subjective qualities. These grading variables force a competing lab to push the envelope. Profits in diamonds are tight and lab customers always push their agenda for the best grades they can obtain. Extremely few diamonds get sent back to any lab asking for a review to LOWER the color or clarity grade. It happens, but it is not commonplace.

A dealer who chooses not to misprepresent quality is to be highly commended. The temptation to take advantage of naive consumers is very lucrative and so very easy. Choosing not to offer overseas EGL reports is pretty much a no-brainer except we see some diamond houses doing very well with misgraded diamonds. They are making money and not getting into trouble or they would stop. With EGL-USA we are looking at an in-between situation. It isn''t dishonesty or lack of skill. It is market pressure and being a second tier lab which creates the somewhat weaker scenario on grading. There is no evil intention that I find here at all. Like I said, consumers can find the best deals with EGL-USA graded diamonds, but it would take a huge amount if shopping and generally happens by accident. Nevertheless, it happens.

 

[WPSon20]

Date: 5/7/2009 2:08:18 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Although EGL-USA is the best of the lot

Thanks for the response.

But what does ''best of the lot'' mean to you? How far off, by your best estimation, on average, is their grading off by vs. other EGL labs?

Is it, say, usually off by one grade each while EGL Israel is off by 1-3 grades? Or is it a matter of unpredictability... I mean, Israel is like a total shot in the dark most of the time and USA is a total shot in the dark some of the time and correct other times?

 

[oldminer]

EGL-USA is not off by a whole grade, on average. In other words, they are not dead on or dead off. They can''t conform much better.

If you take the time to consider how they must attempt to match GIA without going lower, you''ll see the tightwire they must walk. No one who uses grading reports cares a whole lot about a grade higher, only a grade lower. By the time you see a report, the lower grades are in the drawer or round file and the higher grades are with the diamond.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Yes Dave, I try to be kind by adding that maybe the seller is unaware they are misinforming folks- but we all know that's not very likely.

The study done here on PS- while entertaining was not statistically valid- far to small a sample.

Although I agree that EGL USA is better than the foreign labs, the WPson's question about how far of they are indicates that there are still people trying to "game" the system- I honestly believe these folks will be on the loosing end of that game in just about every case.


BTW I've also seen EGL USA issue grades tougher than GIA- on quite a few occasions.
But the bottom line does not change. The inconsistency is the problem
Buy GIA or AGS like dealers do.

 

[WPSon20]

I''m just a caveman but I think I understand.

EGL-USA probably makes its nest where a stone is in-between grades. So it''s not that they are "off by one or two grades," but rather that, when it''s a real close call, they grade on the softer side whereas GIA would grade down.

Again, on average.

Is that a fair interpretation?

Also do these close calls manifest themselves more in, say, color more than it would in clarity? Or not really?

 

[oldminer]

"Yes" is the one word reply.

Color grades are more numerous and there are more possible color grades than clarity grades. There are, therefore, more borderline issues with color grading than clarity grading. Color grading between D to I is the most crucial area for price among the near colorless diamonds. The grades are truly very close together. I think color grading has more potential for subjectivity issues, but someone else might say clarity has problems equal to color. No one has a factual answer to give you. We are giving opinions.

 

[WPSon20]

Date: 5/7/2009 2:58:07 PM
Author: oldminer
''Yes'' is the one word reply.


Color grades are more numerous and there are more possible color grades than clarity grades. There are, therefore, more borderline issues with color grading than clarity grading. Color grading between D to I is the most crucial area for price among the near colorless diamonds. The grades are truly very close together. I think color grading has more potential for subjectivity issues, but someone else might say clarity has problems equal to color. No one has a factual answer to give you. We are giving opinions.

I won''t hold the fact that this is just an opinion against you. In fact, my background work indicates that, when this subject comes up, few are emboldened to offer an opinion.

I can understand the varying reasons for this, and I thank you very kindly for having the confidence to offer one. I assure you I''ll take it with a grain of salt, though this is as much salt as I have been given, thusly.

 

[Rockdiamond]

ON average you may be correct WRSon20.

On average a car passes in front of our building ever 20 seconds.
Would you want to step into the street without looking 15 seconds after the last one has gone by?


The point is averages don''t really matter when it''s YOUR money on the line.

 

[WPSon20]

I assure you the stakes are not quite so high.

But insofar as the point of the conversation is to fully-inform oneself to make an adequate cost-benefit analysis, then I appreciate your vantage.

Thank you all for helping with the fully-informed end of things.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I find that when EGL-USA is off, it tends to be more often on the color than the clarity.

Usually one color grade. Two color grades is rare, in my experience. (Although I'm sure RockDiamond will disagree with this. Love ya Dave.

It's not often that I see an EGL-USA stone off on both the color and clarity. It happens, but it's not the norm.

To answer your original question though, I haven't noticed a significant tightening up of their grading.

An interesting footnote- I appraised an EGL-Israel stone the other day that I agreed on both the color and clarity. A wild card. I was shocked. First time it has ever happened. The client got a hell of a deal because of it. I'm wondering if this is a fluke, or if anyone else has noticed EGL-Israel "tightening up" on their grading?"

 

[denverappraiser]

At the risk of agreeing with David, the problem is with the consistency. If it were possible to simply translate EGL-USA, or any other lab’s grading into GIA grades it would be no problem but without this it makes the reports nearly useless as a shopping tool. What do you know by seeing a stone with an EGLUSA grade of ‘G’ for example? It might be a G. It might be an H. It might even be an I. What has a shopper who is trying to buy the stone blind learned that’s useful here? They can (and should) ask the dealer for his/her expert advice and opinion on the grading and if they are going to rely on that, what was gained by having the EGL document in the first place? It’s the dealer’s grading that’s carrying the day. This is the same as having no lab grading at all. That''s ok if they''re working with the right dealer but if they aren’t prepared to trust the dealer for whatever reason, they’ve made no progress at all in being able to compare one stone against another and, for most shoppers, isn''t that the point?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 5/7/2009 8:18:08 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I find that when EGL-USA is off, it tends to be more often on the color than the clarity.

Usually one color grade. Two color grades is rare, in my experience. (Although I''m sure RockDiamond will disagree with this. Love ya Dave.

It''s not often that I see an EGL-USA stone off on both the color and clarity. It happens, but it''s not the norm.

To answer your original question though, I haven''t noticed a significant tightening up of their grading.

An interesting footnote- I appraised an EGL-Israel stone the other day that I agreed on both the color and clarity. A wild card. I was shocked. First time it has ever happened. The client got a hell of a deal because of it. I''m wondering if this is a fluke, or if anyone else has noticed EGL-Israel ''tightening up'' on their grading?''

I agree..that has also been my experience. Good to see you hangin'' out here again Rich.

If anyone remembers the IDEX report last year regarding inconsistency in grading by various labs, we would not be focusing on just EGL..there are bigger

offenders out there but they are not considered the "top tier" of gemological laboratories...in fact the report did not name names.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/7/2009 8:49:24 PM
Author: denverappraiser
At the risk of agreeing with David, the problem is with the consistency. If it were possible to simply translate EGL-USA, or any other lab’s grading into GIA grades it would be no problem but without this it makes the reports nearly useless as a shopping tool. What do you know by seeing a stone with an EGLUSA grade of ‘G’ for example? It might be a G. It might be an H. It might even be an I. What has a shopper who is trying to buy the stone blind learned that’s useful here? They can (and should) ask the dealer for his/her expert advice and opinion on the grading and if they are going to rely on that, what was gained by having the EGL document in the first place? It’s the dealer’s grading that’s carrying the day. This is the same as having no lab grading at all. That''s ok if they''re working with the right dealer but if they aren’t prepared to trust the dealer for whatever reason, they’ve made no progress at all in being able to compare one stone against another and, for most shoppers, isn''t that the point?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Hi Neil. I''m of the camp that considers some paper better than no paper.

Even with their inconsistancies, at least a knowledgeable consumer (or dealer for that matter) can hazard some kind of (fairly) educated guess as the the value of a stone, and whether it is worth looking at or not.

Let''s say you''re considering a 1ct EGL-USA G/VS2. If it prices out at the level of a GIA H/VS2 it might be worth taking a look at, or at the level of a GIA H/SI1 then definitely worth taking a look at.

At least there''s some kind of guidance there. It''s not like an EGL-USA G/VS2 is ever going to turn out to be an J/SI2, whereas you see that sort of thing happen fairly often with "paperless" stones.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Good point Richard!
If one is dealing with a trusted source, the EGL report has some valid uses.
We buy some stones that have EGL reports. These are always "fringe" diamonds. Either imperfect, or in the color range between M and U-V.
Rarely do I agree with the color grades on colorless stones- I can't recall one of these faint yellows where I did agree with EGL's color assessment.
In fairness, these are generally the foreign EGL's which, I agree, are far less dependable than the EGL in NYC, for example.

But even the non EGL-USA reports do serve a valid purpose in that the weights and measurements are generally correct.

But when it comes to the consumer, my point is that a seller who is withholding information about gem labs is doing a disservice to all of us professional sellers that care a great deal about integrity in our trade.
The example Richard used, a 1ct EGL-USE G/VS2 is a good one.
Unless a cutter/dealer has such stones pre-sold with EGL grading, they have to have a GIA report for their own protection. At the wholesale level, it's hard enough making the price on a stone graded by GIA. When it's graded by EGL the price really drops.
This is far more noticeable in a G color, as compared to a K color- where the actual monetary difference of a grade or two is far less.
I'm less concerned for a consumer shopping a K/SI EGL as opposed to a D/VS

I also feel it's not in the shopper's best interest to try and make some sort of a table showing what to expect in the way of GIA grading people might expect with an EGL graded diamond. It seems that many consumers ask for this type of thing.

 

[denverappraiser]

There’s another important difference I see between wholesale and retail business. Wholesale is largely done as a repeat business activity. Jewelers and diamond dealers establish sources from whom they buy their goods and they tend to go back to the same sellers again and again until something causes them to change. Something like a pattern of misrepresenting stones. The relationship is very valuable to both sides. A supplier who treats his/her retailers badly isn’t going to last long before he finds his customers sourcing goods elsewhere. Unfortunately this is not the case at the consumer level. The threat of never coming back for more is hollow and they know it. Most people won’t be coming back anyway. The Internet has made this even worse where there are dealers who are perfectly happy to simply assume that every single customer will be a one shot deal and as long as they stay just on the right side of going to court, they can get away with nearly anything. This is what’s fueled by the off brand ‘certificates’ and dealers who claim no personal expertise. It allows the dealer a plausible deniability that the goods were properly represented while they know full well that this isn’t the case. If the customer accepts it, and most do, they get off scott free and for the few who protest they always have the option of offering a refund or blaming the whole thing on the appraiser who called them on it, the jeweler who must have switched the stone, a freak error at the lab or some other 3rd party.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

hi everyone, interesting discussion.


Most trade people and knowledgeable consumers would prefer that all labs graded to the same standards; i.e. the same diamond should be given the same grade by all labs. But ask 10 experienced graders to grade 10 diamonds and you will probably find as much as 2 grades of difference in colour or clarity. Some of the grades would be judged by peers as mistakes and incompetence; however some would be justified based on each graders different rules, methods or valid beliefs which are often based on different schools in different countries. These rules can be the result of different education systems or real and genuine recent advances. For instance few people would accept a lab grade of Good Symmetry on a diamond that displays Hearts and Arrows; but I have seen bought and sold diamonds that are real examples.

Consider a diamond with a small cloud as an example. If a grader examines the stone with a loupe and most of the illumination is on the front of the stone, the effect of the cloud might make the stone appear to be a VS1, but when back-lit with a microscope or a loupe positioned so the pavilion is illuminated more than the crown, the same stone might be graded SI2. What is the correct method? The answer depends on the rules. And each lab will have established and developed different rules. Of course the same thing applies to feathers and cracks.

All this is aside from the fact that the rules in some labs encourage a softer grade that will entice the client to bring more stones for grading. We could politely call this Business Development Grading, or BDG for short.

Aside from BDG, how much variation in grades can different rules lead to?

Here are a few dilemmas:

·Should surface reaching crown or table inclusions (cracks or feathers) be graded as they appear, or more harshly?

·Should transparency be graded as a separate feature, noted as a comment, or covered under clarity?

·If the face up colour is different to the side pavilion colour appearance, should this be taken into account, or be considered as part of the colour grading process?

·Should colour grading lamps have UV light filtered out?

·Can a diamond with whitish graining noted in the comments section be Internally Flawless?

·If an otherwise VVS diamond has naked eye visible graining that is only visible from only one small range of face up direction and orientation be graded as SI, VS or VVS?

·A diamond with a half degree tilted table (and therefore a 1 degree off centered culet) that still shows hearts and arrows patterns given Good, Very good or Excellent symmetry?

·When should you downgrade the clarity of a diamond with a part of the original unpolished rough diamond still remaining (a natural), and what size should the natural be to require a notation on the report plot or a mention under comments?

These are just a few of many hundreds of such dilemmas that face each serious lab that wants to achieve high standards of consistency; imagine the staff training issues!

And as far as I am concered consistency is very very important, because as Dave and I found when we did the survey in 2004 that included EGL USA (its in the journal section) the b2B and so the B2C market prices diamonds graded by different labs rather well.

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Date: 5/8/2009 4:39:58 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 5/7/2009 8:49:24 PM

Hi Neil. I'm of the camp that considers some paper better than no paper.


Even with their inconsistancies, at least a knowledgeable consumer (or dealer for that matter) can hazard some kind of (fairly) educated guess as the the value of a stone, and whether it is worth looking at or not.


Let's say you're considering a 1ct EGL-USA G/VS2. If it prices out at the level of a GIA H/VS2 it might be worth taking a look at, or at the level of a GIA H/SI1 then definitely worth taking a look at.


At least there's some kind of guidance there. It's not like an EGL-USA G/VS2 is ever going to turn out to be an J/SI2, whereas you see that sort of thing happen fairly often with 'paperless' stones.

Hi Richard,

While I would generally agree with you for the sake of the general consumer. I have experience that shows the possible merits of un-certified stones. I work with a source that offers un-certified diamonds at no real discount to GIA. I asked him about it, and he says that they are really just back-up stones that will replenish his GIA certs when they sell through. Occasionally when a client is looking for diamonds, one of these un-certified options could be viable in order to provide a specic size/cut/color/clarity combination. These are not budget stones, just "new". And I would have no qualms offering them to a customer. I would then recommend it be independently appraised or certified. I don't see how offering such stones for sale would be questionable, unless it is misrepresented. They dont need to be discounted any more than a standard lab fee.

I am curious how all of your appraiser guys would think about very strictly graded un-certified goods?

 

[oldminer]

very strictly graded un-certified goods


You can grade your own diamonds with what YOU consider "strict" grading, but one must ask about bias or the potential for bias. Who is so full of themselves to claim "their" gading of "their own" diamonds is equivalent to an unbiased paboratory report from AGS or GIA? Sure, you can grade strictly, but you would have to have quite a swell head to advertise this as your way of being better than everyone else..... I know it is commonplace, but it is pure bs.

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Date: 5/9/2009 9:39:22 AM
Author: oldminer
very strictly graded un-certified goods



You can grade your own diamonds with what YOU consider ''strict'' grading, but one must ask about bias or the potential for bias. Who is so full of themselves to claim ''their'' gading of ''their own'' diamonds is equivalent to an unbiased laboratory report from AGS or GIA? Sure, you can grade strictly, but you would have to have quite a swell head to advertise this as your way of being better than everyone else..... I know it is commonplace, but it is pure bs.

Hi David,

Thanks for your response. I would never state that any un-certfied diamonds are better than AGS - GIA across the board. I just feel that they are a good option to consider, as long as there is time to get them independently verified within a return period. I don''t think un-certified diamonds will be a big part of my offerings, but there are times when they would seem to be a good option for certain clients. And no I don''t have such a swell head that I claim these un-certified diamonds are any better (or worse for that matter) than any other diamonds. They just seem to be earlier in the pipeline, a good resource when the traditional certed goods are a little more scarce.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 5/9/2009 1:50:59 AM
Author: Diamond Explorer

Date: 5/8/2009 4:39:58 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 5/7/2009 8:49:24 PM

Hi Neil. I''m of the camp that considers some paper better than no paper.


Even with their inconsistancies, at least a knowledgeable consumer (or dealer for that matter) can hazard some kind of (fairly) educated guess as the the value of a stone, and whether it is worth looking at or not.


Let''s say you''re considering a 1ct EGL-USA G/VS2. If it prices out at the level of a GIA H/VS2 it might be worth taking a look at, or at the level of a GIA H/SI1 then definitely worth taking a look at.


At least there''s some kind of guidance there. It''s not like an EGL-USA G/VS2 is ever going to turn out to be an J/SI2, whereas you see that sort of thing happen fairly often with ''paperless'' stones.

Hi Richard,

While I would generally agree with you for the sake of the general consumer. I have experience that shows the possible merits of un-certified stones. I work with a source that offers un-certified diamonds at no real discount to GIA. I asked him about it, and he says that they are really just back-up stones that will replenish his GIA certs when they sell through. Occasionally when a client is looking for diamonds, one of these un-certified options could be viable in order to provide a specic size/cut/color/clarity combination. These are not budget stones, just ''new''. And I would have no qualms offering them to a customer. I would then recommend it be independently appraised or certified. I don''t see how offering such stones for sale would be questionable, unless it is misrepresented. They dont need to be discounted any more than a standard lab fee.

I am curious how all of your appraiser guys would think about very strictly graded un-certified goods?

If we''re talking about K-L colors, or I1''s, maybe that makes sense- but not if we''re talking about finer goods- say above J, and Si2.
On the market, no matter how much a seller insists he''s got a D/VS2 ( for example) no buyer in the trade will pay for that grade.
As Garry pointed out, even two competent graders can disagree about color and clarity.
That''s why we need GIA or AGS to "level the playing field"
A seller can cry like a stuck pig that be believes it''s a D- but once GIA has graded the stone E, it''s not going to sell for the price of a D.
That might be a good time to throw away the GIA report, and claim that a stone is really a D but there''s been no time to send it it GIA

 

[Diamond Explorer]

I think the statement that only low quality diamonds are sold uncertified is unjustified. I have no real reason to doubt the grade accuracy if its presented to me from a source I trust. Would I prefer a cert with a high value diamond, definately, but that can take time that sometimes doesn''t fit within a deadline. I am building a relationship with my source, and how would it serve him to betray our relationship by misrepresenting goods? Its not like I wouldn''t notice if he was trying to pass a G off as an E. I understand that these grades lack certain objectivity, doesn''t mean they are inaccurate though, Its not like GIA or AGS get it right %100 of the time either.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/9/2009 5:07:37 PM
Author: Diamond Explorer
I think the statement that only low quality diamonds are sold uncertified is unjustified. I have no real reason to doubt the grade accuracy if its presented to me from a source I trust. Would I prefer a cert with a high value diamond, definately, but that can take time that sometimes doesn''t fit within a deadline. I am building a relationship with my source, and how would it serve him to betray our relationship by misrepresenting goods? Its not like I wouldn''t notice if he was trying to pass a G off as an E. I understand that these grades lack certain objectivity, doesn''t mean they are inaccurate though, Its not like GIA or AGS get it right %100 of the time either.

Getting it right is not that simple Jonathon - right by which rules?
Mistakes within the rules is one thing (a very big problem for GIA i suspect)- but the older folk among us might be thinking you are a little naive.
On the support side of your arguement, Venus Jewel sell an awuful lot of diamonds B2B based on their own grading and I have seen a lot of their stones. If they were to open their own lab it would be the lab of my choice.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 5/9/2009 5:07:37 PM
Author: Diamond Explorer
I think the statement that only low quality diamonds are sold uncertified is unjustified. I have no real reason to doubt the grade accuracy if its presented to me from a source I trust. Would I prefer a cert with a high value diamond, definately, but that can take time that sometimes doesn''t fit within a deadline. I am building a relationship with my source, and how would it serve him to betray our relationship by misrepresenting goods? Its not like I wouldn''t notice if he was trying to pass a G off as an E. I understand that these grades lack certain objectivity, doesn''t mean they are inaccurate though, Its not like GIA or AGS get it right %100 of the time either.

I agree with Garry Jonathan.
Remember, your supplier''s first goal is to make profit for his company. As Garry pointed out, even GIA makes mistakes.
If there''s a stone that might get either D or E color, what price will they charge?On borderline stones- sometimes there''s really no way to know which way the grade will fall.
In such cases, the GIA really does become the arbiter. No matter how hard the seller tries to convince the buyer it''s a D, once GIA called it an E, that''s what it is ( unless you throw away the report)
I have had cutters try to get us to pay the price for higher quality stones with no reports by "guaranteeing" the GIA grade.
We buy the stone, and submit it.
If the grade does not come out as promised, we can return the stone.

Is that the type of arrangement you''re talking about?

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Hey Garry and David,

Yes, I am sure I do seem a little naive, I appreciate your inputs though. You are right, I probably wouldn''t take a D on someones word. Then again I am not buying any expensive stones for inventory right now either. I source mostly on demand, and I explore all options available, certified or not (with proper independent confirmation and full assurances of course). Hope this seems reasonable.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/10/2009 12:05:08 PM
Author: Diamond Explorer
Hey Garry and David,

Yes, I am sure I do seem a little naive, I appreciate your inputs though. You are right, I probably wouldn't take a D on someones word. Then again I am not buying any expensive stones for inventory right now either. I source mostly on demand, and I explore all options available, certified or not (with proper independent confirmation and full assurances of course). Hope this seems reasonable.

Hi Jonathan. It seems reasonable as long as you offer the proper discount for non-GIA certified stones.

Frustrating as it is if you have a stone which you feel is properly graded but "paperless", the reality is that GIA certified stones trade for a lesser discount on the market than paperless stones, or stones graded by second tier labs.

That's because the buyer is buying "documented peace of mind" that the stone is as it's represented to be. This is worth money to buyers, as evidenced by the premium that GIA (or AGS) stones command over non-GIA stones.

To sell a non-GIA certed stone at a GIA certed price is to over-charge the customer. This holds true for your supplier as well. If he is selling you non-GIA certified stones at GIA prices, then he is over charging you. I never appraise a non-certified D/VS1 at the price a GIA certified D/VS1 would command, even if I am certain of the grading. That's because a GIA certified D/VS1 commands more money on the market than a Richard Sherwood certified D/VS1, plain and simple.

In my experience, at least a third of diamond wholesalers selling non-certified stones exagerrate the grades. Sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. Many of them truly believe it to be the grade they think it is. They've never taken the trouble to learn all the nuances of grading by taking grading courses, yet feel justified assigning grades which they feel are equivalent to GIA-GTL grading because of their experience. In reality, many of these individuals are just repeating one year's worth of experience twenty times over.

You might consider checking out your supplier sometime by sending one or more of his stones to GIA to see if his grading holds up. You might be surprised.

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Date: 5/10/2009 4:58:53 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 5/10/2009 12:05:08 PM

Author: Diamond Explorer

Hey Garry and David,


Yes, I am sure I do seem a little naive, I appreciate your inputs though. You are right, I probably wouldn''t take a D on someones word. Then again I am not buying any expensive stones for inventory right now either. I source mostly on demand, and I explore all options available, certified or not (with proper independent confirmation and full assurances of course). Hope this seems reasonable.

Hi Jonathan. It seems reasonable as long as you offer the proper discount for non-GIA certified stones.


Frustrating as it is if you have a stone which you feel is properly graded but ''paperless'', the reality is that GIA certified stones trade for a lesser discount on the market than paperless stones, or stones graded by second tier labs.


That''s because the buyer is buying ''documented peace of mind'' that the stone is as it''s represented to be. This is worth money to buyers, as evidenced by the premium that GIA (or AGS) stones command over non-GIA stones.



To sell a non-GIA certed stone at a GIA certed price is to over-charge the customer. This holds true for your supplier as well. If he is selling you non-GIA certified stones at GIA prices, then he is over charging you. I never appraise a non-certified D/VS1 at the price a GIA certified D/VS1 would command, even if I am certain of the grading. That''s because a GIA certified D/VS1 commands more money on the market than a Richard Sherwood certified D/VS1, plain and simple.


In my experience, at least a third of diamond wholesalers selling non-certified stones exagerrate the grades. Sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. Many of them truly believe it to be the grade they think it is. They''ve never taken the trouble to learn all the nuances of grading by taking grading courses, yet feel justified assigning grades which they feel are equivalent to GIA-GTL grading because of their experience. In reality, many of these individuals are just repeating one year''s worth of experience twenty times over.


You might consider checking out your supplier sometime by sending one or more of his stones to GIA to see if his grading holds up. You might be surprised.

Thanks Rich,

I believe I work with a very good source and he carries GIA and uncerted stones. The uncerted are generally just new and waiting to be certified. If a stone is borderline, he will accept the lower grade. I viewed one of his borderline stones from GIA which he accepted the lower grade. This was on the F/G border. He plainly told me about what a deal it was because he lost the battle against GIA. Its a conservative office and he told me such disputes between their in house grades and GIA grades were very rare. A very honest man.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Great! A good and honest supplier is worth his weight in gold.

The damond business is one of the few businesses left where a handshake is a contract, and trust plays an important part of it.

I''m glad you''ve found such an individual.