Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

EGL Cert discount off Rapp report

E

ellisr21

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
41
I have been looking at Round EGL certified stones around 1.50 carats SI1 and SI2 I am trying to find out the fair market price of them based on a discount to the Rapp report (e.g., 20% off Rapp list price or 40%)

The jeweler showed me a 1.50 already set F SI2 w/EGL he said he had the stone for a couple years and would sell it to me for 7,200 (with setting) he showed me the Rapp report and told me he would give me 45% off. I was not a big fan of the stone I thought it should have more fire than it did and I was worried the setting might be hiding something. However, the inclusions where not visible to the naked eye

The jeweler is a good guy I have done a lot of homework and he respects the fact that I can go anywhere but will do business with him if he gives me a good price. I am trying to determine a reasonable price to offer on other stones he has coming in to show me. Is 45% off Rapp what I should expect on every stone he shows me?

Thanks for the help
 
To find a fair price, use the Pricescope search engine and look for similar EGL stones. That will give you an idea of
what on-line vendor would sell it for. On-line vendors are almost always less than B&M.

EGL stones are graded more loosely than GIA/AGS stones. We usually suggest you stick with GIA/AGS stones.
 
so what is the avrage markdown to Rapp an online dealer is looking for? prices online are all over the place online (e.g., same stone egl or gia can have over 2k diff. in price i am looking for a % answer like 30 below Rapp is a good price for a stone, etc
 
You're asking the wrong question. The issue is grading. Most diamonds are priced based on the grade, not what EGL reports the grade to be. Yes, these are different. An I1/J will be priced as an I1/J even if some lab calls it an SI1/G. Looking at the Rap sheet for SI1/G and observing that there's 'discount' present is correct but hugely deceptive data. Where you SHOULD be looking is Rap for I1/J and comparing to other I1/J's that are available to you. The trick, of course, is you don't know the grade. Converting from one lab to another simply doesn't work. Sometimes they're dead on and sometimes they differ as much as 4 or 5 grades. You're relying on the dealer to tell you. That's not such a bad plan but if you're going to rely on the dealer for THAT datapoint, it makes no sense to rely on Rap for the pricing question. If you're not prepared to rely on the dealer for the grading then you've got nothing to work from.

OK, to answer your question, the cheapest EGL stones seem to go for about 50% of what the report says about the grading. The most expensive online stores seem to charge about Rap to Rapx1.5 for what the report says. Not that this means the cheapest is the best 'deal' or that the most expensive is the worst.
 
Thank you guy's. is it save to say that if i am not told the real facts about the stone and the dealer bases his price of the Rap that and SI2 F is really a G sI3/I1?

also, to the man from Denver do you sell stones? i will be in Denver in a couple months

this whole process is really hard i don’t mind spending the money I just want to make sure what I am getting is really what it says

i am looking to spend between 6800 and 7800 (give or take) what should I realistically expect for that price not based on Rap but like you said based on the reality? My main focus is getting a stone that has lots of fire and no inclusions visible to the naked eye
 
No, I don't sell stones.

What I do is independent grading and appraisals. There's a link to my website at the foot of every post.


Attached to this site is a database with tens of thousands of stones listed. These are all firm offers from real dealers who would like to sell them to you. Even if you have no intention of ever buying anything from these guys it's a wonderful education to spend some time playing with the database. GIA and AGS graded stones are usually fairly consistent in their grading so by limiting your search to GIA only and excellent cutting only you can get a fast, free and easy feel for what things cost in a highly competitive market. Use that as the benchmark with your other sellers but remember that grading is key, before price and we're setting the bar high by the filter we just placed.
 
HI ellisr21,
What was the explanation of the seller about EGL?

This is crucial- honestly, I find the tactic of using misgraded stones, and the Rap sheet to be ....questionable.Basically, when sellers try to suggest that a stone is a bargain based on EGL grading, it means they don;t understand grading- or worse, they do understand, but don't want the buyer to understand.
Many times we've heard stories of how such sellers say GIA takes to long, costs too much yada yada- ALL bs......


Maybe I'm reading this wrong- but it's very common......unfortunately.....
 
hi Rockdiamond,

The seller is the owner of the store seems to be a good guy older, been in the biz his whole life. (To back up, my college roommate’s father was a diamond broker in Israel so I have some basic knowledge of the industry and stones and made sure the seller knew this right off that bat). He told me he sends all his stones to EGL no diamond in his store is GIA, AGS, IGI, or HRD he told me all about how the EGL has been known to grade better than the other but he assures me that he does not pay off the people at EGL and he does it because people can get the same stone as GIA but for a better price. I also read that only 6% of EGL stones have a different grade that GIA, is this number accurate?

My college roommate offered to get me a stone in Belgium from the cutter with an HRD cert but for some reason I don’t trust him and the stone won’t be what he actually says or he will charge me to much,, any thoughts on that, are HRD stones the best of the best?
 
ellisr21|1336505106|3190301 said:
hi Rockdiamond,

he assures me that he does not pay off the people at EGL and he does it because people can get the same stone as GIA but for a better price.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to sound harsh but this sounds like a lot of bs to me...he's a seller, right? He has a business to run, right? So why would he knowingly sell a stone for less than it's worth on the market?! :shock:
 
Frenchcut,

i agree he told me 7,200 i countered with 6,800 (he was fine with that) it seems very cheap for a stone that is acording to him F SI2 Ideal cut with excellent polish and symmetry do you all agree out there?
 
I've made a quick search using PS tool and I could find a bunch of F SI1 excellent stones (GIA/AGS) at 1.5 carat (sorry, no F SI2 listed).

The cheapest is listed at 11 568$ and the most expensive at 18097$...most are listed around 15k$ and these are online vendors so less expensive than a B&M store.

I thinks it gives an idea of what an excellent F SI2 1.5 carat diamond is worth and the price for your stone definitely looks too low. When a deal looks to good to be true...it usually is!
 
ellisr21|1336505106|3190301 said:
hi Rockdiamond,

The seller is the owner of the store seems to be a good guy older, been in the biz his whole life. (To back up, my college roommate’s father was a diamond broker in Israel so I have some basic knowledge of the industry and stones and made sure the seller knew this right off that bat). He told me he sends all his stones to EGL no diamond in his store is GIA, AGS, IGI, or HRD he told me all about how the EGL has been known to grade better than the other but he assures me that he does not pay off the people at EGL and he does it because people can get the same stone as GIA but for a better price. I also read that only 6% of EGL stones have a different grade that GIA, is this number accurate?

My college roommate offered to get me a stone in Belgium from the cutter with an HRD cert but for some reason I don’t trust him and the stone won’t be what he actually says or he will charge me to much,, any thoughts on that, are HRD stones the best of the best?
Click to expand...

Most PSers would recommend sticking with GIA and AGS stones only. Those labs are reputable and reliable graders of diamonds. Anything else, who knows what you could be getting. For example, you say your dealer showed you an F SI2, but it could easily be a J I1, and if you do a PS search for J I1s, you'll find that they are priced just below $6k, which makes $6,800 seem like you're overspending by nearly $1k.

I am extremely skeptical of the statement that only 6% of EGL stones come back with a different grade. How would anyone even know that? The only way to know would be to send ALL EGL stones to GIA and compare. Jewelers and diamond sellers aren't in it to make friends, and they know that EGL is soft on grading, and they know that people who don't do their research will think they are getting a great deal by buying an EGL stone when they are really getting taken for a ride.

If your budget is $7k, including setting, and you are flexible on color and clarity, I would suggest going with a lovely GIA excellent or AGS0 1 carat stone in a simple solitaire from any of the vendors regularly talked about on PS (Whiteflash, James Allen, Good Old Gold, Brian Gavin Diamonds, ID Jewelry, etc.).
 
Thanks Rubybeth.

has anyone heard of www.briliance.com they seem to be cheaper than the sites listed above. anyfeedback there?
 
ellisr21|1336505106|3190301 said:
hi Rockdiamond,

The seller is the owner of the store seems to be a good guy older, been in the biz his whole life. (To back up, my college roommate’s father was a diamond broker in Israel so I have some basic knowledge of the industry and stones and made sure the seller knew this right off that bat). He told me he sends all his stones to EGL no diamond in his store is GIA, AGS, IGI, or HRD he told me all about how the EGL has been known to grade better than the other but he assures me that he does not pay off the people at EGL and he does it because people can get the same stone as GIA but for a better price. I also read that only 6% of EGL stones have a different grade that GIA, is this number accurate?

My college roommate offered to get me a stone in Belgium from the cutter with an HRD cert but for some reason I don’t trust him and the stone won’t be what he actually says or he will charge me to much,, any thoughts on that, are HRD stones the best of the best?
Click to expand...


HI ellis- no way to soften this statement- this guy is showing that he's a crook. Period.
If he's been in the biz his whole life, he knows the reputation of EGL.
Shame on him for trying to take advantage of people like this.
In terms of ANY number (6% was mentioned) made to correlate GIA and EGL grading- it's total rubbish- and totally meaningless.
It's like trying to plot chaos. The definition of chaos is that it's not reliable, steady, repeatable or consistent in any way.
That's EGL grading.


ETA- this is a great reason why bargain shoppers are more likely to get ripped off.
Cheap is always cheap for a reason......
 
It's a tricky question to decide what is and what is not 'comparable' for purposes of shopping and you're certainly welcome to use GIA/F/SI1's if you think it's appropriate but I see dozens of 1.50-1.55/EGL/F/SI2's to choose from. The cheapest one offered here is $5367.

I too am curious about the 6% number as this has not been my experience. If this is true there is an absolute fortune to be made by buying EGL's and rebranding them to GIA's. It takes a month or so and costs a hundred or two in lab fees. It's not like they're perishable and, by your numbers, the above described stone would go for double the price if someone did it. Why are there ANY stones with EGL written reports available in the marketplace?
 
thanks denver.

i am in no rush if he is so confident in his product i will ask him to send the stone to GIA, i will even offer to split the cost with him if it comes back what he says
 
I bought a GIA-graded 2.06 J SI2 oval from Brilliance.com. It was priced about 13% less from brilliance.com than from Blue Nile. Wasn't available from any other PS vendor, at least it wasn't listed in the PS database from them. I'm happy with Brilliance's price and service, but you don't get the photos and reports on the diamonds that you get from some other vendors.

liz
 
ellisr21|1336510792|3190400 said:
thanks denver.

i am in no rush if he is so confident in his product i will ask him to send the stone to GIA, i will even offer to split the cost with him if it comes back what he says
Click to expand...
I'm waiting with baited breath to hear the story he comes back with when you ask him this.


Neil- there's a Pricescope article that somehow gives the impression that EGL is comparable to GIA. That might be where the 6% comes from.

The study has noble purpose behind it, but the conclusions many people take away are flawed.
Unfortunate.
 
My spidey senses are tingling all over the place here. Basically, there are many red flags here telling me you cannot trust this jeweler, and that you should take your business elsewhere. He is using hard sell tactics and misleading you.

Here is a comment I posted in another thread about SI2 stones from EGL that I think it pertinent:

Dreamer_D|1336256705|3188316 said:
I want to talk more about the EGL report. I think you need to be very very wary of it. I know you have been round the block and know why EGL is not a lab that is in the best interests on consumers. A special case red flag in my opinion is situations where a diamond is graded Si2 by EGL, like this one is.

As you know, EGL is lax in its grading. And cutters/vendors *choose* to send certain diamonds to EGL, usually diamonds that would be graded below an important demarkation point for value by GIA. In this case, knowing EGL graded the diamond Si2 means that GIA would likely have graded the stone I1 or even I2. My guess is the latter, unfortunately, since the color is so good, the stone would have to have a MAJOR flaw to warrant sending it to EGL over GIA and accepting the market devaluation that accompanies EGL. Some stones would be frankly unsalable if they were offered on the market with a GIA report and an accurate grade for cut/color/clarity. My guess is this stone would have received an I2 and been unsalable with a GIA report, hence the seller chose EGL to make it more palatable to buyers.

This does not mean you should not buy the stone. But it means you need to do two things before you commit. Fitst you need an independent qualified appraisal to ensure that the clarity is not a durability risk and does not affect optics. This is not one of those cases where you should maybe do it to cover your butt. This is a case where I think there is a good chance there is an issue with clarity. So please check it out. Second, you need to think hard about value. The stone was sent to EGL because the seller can get MORE money selling an EGL D Si2 than they can get for an F I2, for example. There is a huge decrease in price in the I1-I2 clarity range, and so you need to make sure the price being asked is fair. An appraiser can help you determine this.

To be honest, my guess is the seller will be asking too much, relying on an uneducated consumer to be ignorant of the issues accompanying an EGL Si2. Do your homework and if the seller will not drop to fair market value in price, and more importantly, allow you an ample money back inspection period (promised in writing of course), then you need to walk.
Click to expand...
 
ellisr21|1336510792|3190400 said:
thanks denver.

i am in no rush if he is so confident in his product i will ask him to send the stone to GIA, i will even offer to split the cost with him if it comes back what he says
Click to expand...
Offer to pay the whole fee, and shipping/insurance too. Heck, throw in $100 for 'handling'. The catch is that if it comes back lower on clarity, color and/or cut, the deals off and HE pays all the costs. Dollars to donuts he refuses. The question to ask yourself then is why?
 
Ellisr21, you seem like a nice person. It's fortunate that you're open-minded because I imagine you have a friendly relationship with the jeweler who is getting roasted here. Unfortunately, if he seriously made those claims about EGL>GIA, he deserves it.

I won't throw fuel on that fire (well, I might later) but I'm reminded of a post with an anecdote in it which illustrates how the inconsistent grading standards in this business are used - every day - to make you "feel" a deal ... when it's the absolute opposite.

The adventure of BuyerBilly: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nline-purchases.154659/#post-2815564#p2815564
 
ellisr21|1336505106|3190301 said:
hi Rockdiamond,

The seller is the owner of the store seems to be a good guy older, been in the biz his whole life. (To back up, my college roommate’s father was a diamond broker in Israel so I have some basic knowledge of the industry and stones and made sure the seller knew this right off that bat). He told me he sends all his stones to EGL no diamond in his store is GIA, AGS, IGI, or HRD he told me all about how the EGL has been known to grade better than the other but he assures me that he does not pay off the people at EGL and he does it because people can get the same stone as GIA but for a better price. I also read that only 6% of EGL stones have a different grade that GIA, is this number accurate?

My college roommate offered to get me a stone in Belgium from the cutter with an HRD cert but for some reason I don’t trust him and the stone won’t be what he actually says or he will charge me to much,, any thoughts on that, are HRD stones the best of the best?
Click to expand...
your dealer is full of B.S... :!: :nono:
 
Ok, so, considering I liked the color of that stone (F with EGL cert) when I compared it to other is it safe to say that I can look at G/H stones instead of F with a GIA or AGS certification so I can still get the size I want without spending double for an F color?

I really don’t want to see any yellow at all with the naked eye, can I go to G or H or should I stick with F and spend a few more bucks?
 
It is so hard to say what color will be 'safe.' It is so very personal. Can you go to a local vendor who offers GIA-certed stones and compare with your own eyes in person? There are women on these boards with I and J color stones who don't notice any off-putting 'yellow' to their stones, more like a 'creamy' white/ivory vs. a white with blue undertones. Color can be more noticeable the larger the stone, but can be off-set by having an excellent/ideal cut with the best possible light return. Also, what kind of setting are you thinking of? Something with melee stones like a halo or pave shank may cause you to notice color differences more than a classic solitaire.

Personally, I think if you saw an EGL F, you could be fine with a GIA or AGS H or even possibly lower. Some examples of what you could get for about $7k:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1485241.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1486612.asp

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2782670.htm

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8378/

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.024-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104057888008
 
Thanks ruby.

The setting will be a plain white gold or platinum setting she has small hands size 4 ¼ she does not want any other diamonds on the setting just the center stone
 
Visit some real jewelers and look at some real stones. You need to callibrate your eyes and get a feel for what you like. Describing the difference between very faint color and extremely faint color is, well, difficult. Check out a store that has GIA-xxx or AGS-0 stones to show and look at color. Avoid using off-brand stones for this purpose and be careful about poor cutting, it makes stones look rather different. Don't worry so much about the prices and leave your credit card at home. You may find THE ONE, in fact maybe you already have, but it'll wait a few more days. This is an educational trip.

Not that it's a good definition of what is best, but the most popular colors in the US are G-I. J's are big with bargain shoppers. F is actually pretty unusual. Your expectation that it's a 'risk' to go below F I think may prove to be false but the test is with YOUR eyes.
 
ellisr21|1336505106|3190301 said:
hi Rockdiamond,

The seller is the owner of the store seems to be a good guy older, been in the biz his whole life. (To back up, my college roommate’s father was a diamond broker in Israel so I have some basic knowledge of the industry and stones and made sure the seller knew this right off that bat). He told me he sends all his stones to EGL no diamond in his store is GIA, AGS, IGI, or HRD he told me all about how the EGL has been known to grade better than the other but he assures me that he does not pay off the people at EGL and he does it because people can get the same stone as GIA but for a better price. I also read that only 6% of EGL stones have a different grade that GIA, is this number accurate?

My college roommate offered to get me a stone in Belgium from the cutter with an HRD cert but for some reason I don’t trust him and the stone won’t be what he actually says or he will charge me to much,, any thoughts on that, are HRD stones the best of the best?
Click to expand...

Hi Ellis,
I wanted to apologize if my language yesterday was too strong.
I think that the exposure to so many people who have been ripped off after being told similar stories is something that truly upsets me.
I feel that honor in one's profession is incredibly important. When I see others in my field trampling the truth I get angry.
I should probably get over it- you cant' fix the world.
 
Rock,
Not at all.

I had a feeling he was full of BS that’s why I came here. I must say this site is great and I look forward to coming back for some further options/support after going to look at GIA & AGS stones from another dealer. Based on all the responses here if I see a stone that is EGL I should look the other way
 
ellisr21|1336565097|3190897 said:
Ok, so, considering I liked the color of that stone (F with EGL cert) when I compared it to other is it safe to say that I can look at G/H stones instead of F with a GIA or AGS certification so I can still get the size I want without spending double for an F color?

I really don’t want to see any yellow at all with the naked eye, can I go to G or H or should I stick with F and spend a few more bucks?
Click to expand...
IMO...if you are ok with an F EGL stone,then you should be ok with a G colored GIA or AGS stone.
 
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top