Educational Background of PS'ers

[Haven]

Frekechild--Your post was very clear, I just wanted to make sure mine wasn't misleading!

I don't really know much about titles and why some schools do or don't use them. It's not really important to me, to be honest. I'm far more interested in serving my students and my college than I am in what it says on my office door. Some university professors *only* have a master's degree, too, which further complicates the issue I suppose. The fields of creative writing and theatre come to mind. A lot of MFAs in those fields end up teaching at the university level.

I'm sure there's some authority on the proper use of titles, I just don't know what or who it is. If I was more interested I'd do some digging, but honestly, I'm too pregnant and tired to put in the effort.

 

[madelise]

Thanks Haven and Freke. I think that helps me get a clearer picture of what our teachers go through.



so… Q: Most of our PhDs, I call Dr Lastname, but I call everyone else Prof Lastname. If they're not a "Prof" to the university or cc system, and are only a lecturer/instructor, would that be incorrect? Why is this stuff so darn confusing I wish teachers would just flat out tell us "CALL ME _."

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Thanks MC

Ruby, I will have my MA in clinical mental health counseling with a certificate in substance abuse counseling. Between those two degrees, MCSW or LMFT, I would pick LMFT. Social work is a much different field than counseling. More case management. If that's what he is interested in than great. If he likes the clinical side, I think the LMFT would be a better fit.

This is a very common misconception about the field of social work. Most social work programs allow you to pick an area of specialty, clinical practice being one of them. An LCSW is just as qualified to do clinical work as an LMFT. There are many, many clinical social workers providing services in clinical settings as well as in private practice. An MSW is a very versatile degree and offers great flexibility in the job market. It's also an older and more established degree so it is recognized both nationally and internationally.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, they are "qualified" and many MSWs are in private practice and conduct counseling. However, my point is the coursework is VERY, very different. I have seen both counselors and social workers in action and there is a different mentality and style. A counseling program offers more in terms of theory and techniques. At least in the university I attend.

 

[rubybeth]

Thanks MC

Ruby, I will have my MA in clinical mental health counseling with a certificate in substance abuse counseling. Between those two degrees, MCSW or LMFT, I would pick LMFT. Social work is a much different field than counseling. More case management. If that's what he is interested in than great. If he likes the clinical side, I think the LMFT would be a better fit.

This is a very common misconception about the field of social work. Most social work programs allow you to pick an area of specialty, clinical practice being one of them. An LCSW is just as qualified to do clinical work as an LMFT. There are many, many clinical social workers providing services in clinical settings as well as in private practice. An MSW is a very versatile degree and offers great flexibility in the job market. It's also an older and more established degree so it is recognized both nationally and internationally.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, they are "qualified" and many MSWs are in private practice and conduct counseling. However, my point is the coursework is VERY, very different. I have seen both counselors and social workers in action and there is a different mentality and style. A counseling program offers more in terms of theory and techniques. At least in the university I attend.

This is so interesting to me, perhaps I should make a separate thread, since I am threadjacking this one. My DH is aware of some of the differences, I think, because each unit at his employer has their own therapist and they have a variety of backgrounds.

 

[Haven]

Thanks Haven and Freke. I think that helps me get a clearer picture of what our teachers go through.
so… Q: Most of our PhDs, I call Dr Lastname, but I call everyone else Prof Lastname. If they're not a "Prof" to the university or cc system, and are only a lecturer/instructor, would that be incorrect? Why is this stuff so darn confusing I wish teachers would just flat out tell us "CALL ME _."

I think as long as they don't say, "Oh, please call me XYZ . . . " then you're fine.

Students often start the semester by calling my Professor Mylastname, so I just tell them on day 1 that I prefer "Lori" or "Mrs. Mylastname".

Everyone has different preferences. I know of several adjuncts who insist their students call them "Professor Theirsurname" so, who knows! Most of my FT colleagues just go by their first names around here, but we have a very laid-back environment.

As long as you aren't saying, "Hey you!" I think you'll be fine.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Why not go for the cheaper degree?

In my opinion, at the masters degree level, the MSW is the best degree available for someone who wants to enter the mental health field unless s/he is a psychiatric nurse. It is certainly worth every dollar it costs. Why do you think it takes more time and costs more than the marriage and family counseling degree?

Because I have compared the credit load and amount of clinical hours required for each program, and the MSW program is more credits and more hours, and he would not be able to work even part-time while doing the degree. It would likely be over 2 years of not working, which means not only lost income, but lost 401(k) match, no benefits, etc. and we'd be living on a tight budget with just my income. If he could work part-time, we could pay his way through school without loans, plus all that other good stuff.

I think Ruby, only you and your husband know what is right for your life. I would suggest he talk with someone from each program and figure out which is a better "fit." For me it was the counseling route. He might have a different perspective. That said, I find it a bit disheartening anyone would put down someone's degree. I am graduating from a CACREP, 60 credit hour program. It was very intense. I find it hard to believe a MSW would have been more intense than what I have experienced. Yes, social work is an older profession but during my job search I am not finding it limited or focused on MSWs. The only place I know of that is difficult to get a job as a LPC is the VA. Maybe the market has changed since Deb's friend got her degree? Where I currently work they favor LPCs. So maybe every agency is different.

 

[AGBF]

I think Ruby, only you and your husband know what is right for your life. I would suggest he talk with someone from each program and figure out which is a better "fit." For me it was the counseling route. He might have a different perspective. That said, I find it a bit disheartening anyone would put down someone's degree.

Rubybeth's husband may or may not know now what will be best for him. The more information he gets, the better able he will be to make an informed decision eventually.

I am sorry that you feel I "put down" your degree. I do not consider the Marriage and Family Therapy degree to be lacking in worth. A wonderful licensed marriage and family therapist at a partial hospital program helped my own daughter. But I refuse to pull punches and say that I think that the marriage and family counseling degree is the equal of the MSW when I do not. I think it is substantive, but not close to the MSW.

Deb/AGBF

 

[chrono]

BSc in Engineering with a professional licence.

 

[Demelza]

Thanks MC

Ruby, I will have my MA in clinical mental health counseling with a certificate in substance abuse counseling. Between those two degrees, MCSW or LMFT, I would pick LMFT. Social work is a much different field than counseling. More case management. If that's what he is interested in than great. If he likes the clinical side, I think the LMFT would be a better fit.

This is a very common misconception about the field of social work. Most social work programs allow you to pick an area of specialty, clinical practice being one of them. An LCSW is just as qualified to do clinical work as an LMFT. There are many, many clinical social workers providing services in clinical settings as well as in private practice. An MSW is a very versatile degree and offers great flexibility in the job market. It's also an older and more established degree so it is recognized both nationally and internationally.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, they are "qualified" and many MSWs are in private practice and conduct counseling. However, my point is the coursework is VERY, very different. I have seen both counselors and social workers in action and there is a different mentality and style. A counseling program offers more in terms of theory and techniques. At least in the university I attend.

I'm not sure why you put qualified in quotes??

Sure, the coursework is different, but you made it sound like social workers are better suited to case management. I felt I had to correct that error. The simple truth is that an MSW is a broader degree more widely recognized on a national and international scale. Whether that's worth the extra time and money is really a personal decision and also depends on the particular location in which one intends to practice.

All that said, I don't really think the training one receives in school is even the tip of the iceberg. As far as I'm concerned, the degree opens doors and allows you to gain experience, but it's the post-graduate training one receives in the field that is most important. I don't at all think that social workers have a single mentality any more than MFT's do. Each person specializes in his/her own type of clinical practice and that can and does vary widely from person to person.

 

[AGBF]

All that said, I don't really think the training one receives in school is even the tip of the iceberg. As far as I'm concerned, the degree opens doors and allows you to gain experience, but it's the post-graduate training one receives in the field that is most important.

And I would like to take Demelza's point a step further. Not only is post-graduate training important, but so is personal therapy, which used to be required of the people who were then called "psychiatric social workers". As this article states, psychiatrists in the UK are, apparently, still required to undergo personal psychotherapy for the reasons that Freud suggested all psychoanalysts be psychoanalyzed.

Below is an excerpt from a British journal that recommends personal therapy for psychiatrists.

"According to the educational argument, personal therapy confers knowledge, aptitudes and/or skills thought necessary for competent clinical performance. Freud (1937) had thought a psychoanalyst's personal analysis was the only vehicle by which essential techniques, such as working with resistance and transference, could be learned. A strong educational case would identify learning during personal therapy that was unlikely to occur in teaching or supervised practice alone. Objectives here need to be defined for claims to be testable through comparative research.

Although Macran & Shapiro's (199 review cites four possible attainments (insight into personal conflicts and behaviours; greater sensitivity to patients' experiences; learning of effective procedures; and personal belief in the efficacy of therapy), it only cites evidence in support of the second, with respect to development of empathy. Weintraub et al's (1999) US survey confirms increased belief in efficacy to be a common outcome of personal therapy also. Macaskill (198 suggested that any differences in personal awareness and practical skill conferred by personal therapy are likely to be evident only intermittently, at times when particularly challenging situations put therapists under pressure to act immediately in clinically questionable ways.

This indicates one way therapy may contribute to trainees' procedural knowledge, as distinct from the declarative knowledge that formal teaching confers. Other clinically important aptitudes may only be developed through the kind of close interactions that personal therapy affords. These would include the ‘implicit relational learning’ that appears to be crucial to some therapeutic communication (Stern et al, 199. Depending on attunement of non-verbal responses between therapist and patient, this learning is fostered through direct experience and has no equivalent in taught verbal interventions."

http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/25/1/3.full

AGBF

 

[zoebartlett]

Freke and Haven, thanks for explaining tenure-track requirements. Tenure is very different at my level and I never really knew what it meant at the university/CC level. I figured active research papers/projects were involved but I didn't know much about it.

 

[zoebartlett]

Tuckins, do you mind if I ask what textbooks you're using for your courses? I have an M.Ed. in Reading and I'm always looking for new books to read. It's funny, when I was in grad school years ago, a few researchers' names were used a lot. Now I feel like they've almost taken a back seat to others. I'm curious as to which authors and books your professors are asking you to read.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Ditto Clairitek,
I might be one of those friends but I finished my doctorate this spring and have no plans to jump into academia. Oddly enough, DH has a PhD and isn't in academia. Every professor on my dissertation committee earns half of what I do teaching public high school; they joked that when they retire I can have their jobs (which was sweet as they are tenured at very prestigious universities) but most humanities profs earn way less than people think. I've seen lots of people on here talking about how they want to teach at the university level. I suggest doing a bit of research into various positions that are open in your field pay before getting into it. I've never paid a cent for any of my degrees and don't know anyone who was paying for grad degrees, but studies and research take time and lost earnings are something to think about. I love teaching high school; the added degrees mean more advanced classes and a much higher salary. To me, the difference between teaching 18yr olds and 19yr olds is over 40k and excellent benefits. I'm not typing this to brag, I just grow weary of so many people who have a very idealized concept of what being a professor means. If you go that path, good luck! Of course if you just love learning, a library card will take you everywhere and open courseware at MIT among others, is amazing.

Ditto both of you. I know a 32 year old adjunct professor with a PhD in a very esoteric field who lives in a house with 5 other roommates, because they make next to nothing. That's not an exaggeration: FIVE roommates.

Although I suppose that's better than living with your parents. Seriously, I can't imagine living with your parents so you can buy fancy cars. I'd rather not have a car than live with my parents. I haven't lived with them since the summer after my freshman year of college-that was painful enough for me!

Sadly, I'm not surprised. Adjuncts make next to nothing for all of the work they do. There is no comparing what adjuncts earn to what FT profs earn. It's a sad reality, and I'm not proud to be part of a system that basically exploits adjuncts. I was lucky to only adjunct while I had a FT job teaching HS, so I didn't have to live on an adjunct's earnings.

I'm a full-time tenure-track English professor at a community college and I earn a decent living. I left a FT HS teaching job to take this one, and while I initially took a significant pay cut to make the move, over time I will earn more money, and have a far better work/life balance than I would had I stayed at the HS. My high school teaching contract was excellent, we had a stipulation that we must have one of the top five salary scales in the county, but even still my CC position pays more in the long run. Our salary scale is heavily weighted on the right, so it favors profs who stick around rather than recent hires, while the HS salary scale was more evenly distributed.

ETA: I have no idea how university salaries compare to CC salaries, but based on what Swimmer wrote it sounds like we earn more at the CC level. What I do know is that adjuncts are grossly underpaid everywhere!

I also know there's no comparing a CC professorship to a university professorship. Half of my time at the CC is devoted to teaching, whereas university profs do not teach nearly as many classes, and more of their time is devoted to research in the field.

Salaries for Professors vary by field very widely. In Canada, engineers and computer engineers earn most, humanties earn least (generally), and the disparity is to the tune of DOUBLE. They also vary by institution type, with research intensive, graduate degree granting schools paying much more than schools offering only under graduate degrees (we do not have a college or community college system in Canada like in the US; such schools do not offer degrees), and salaries between those two types can also vary by up to 50%+.

But I can tell you, in Canada, if you are a prof at a major University you earn, what I consider to be, a very nice salary given the perks. Plus a defined benefits pension, which is rare. Anyways, its not all doom and gloom. Its less than industry, or what I could earn at a business school... but then I would have to work in industry. I don't think they would take kindly to my twice-weekly morning naps. Err. I mean "deep thinking sessions".

 

[Dreamer_D]

For you teachers, I had no idea adjunct faculty make peanuts! I feel so badly. My favorites are adjunct faculty. What makes a person a tenure? # of years served? Or just an opening for a FT position?

Adjunct faculty are part-time instructors, whereas tenured or tenure-track faculty are FT professors. In community colleges, at least, it is very easy to get a position as an adjunct instructor, whereas FT positions are extremely rare and highly competitive[/b].

This is probably even more exaggerated in research-intensive, graduate degree granting universities. In Canada, there were five tenure track positions in my field in three years while I was on the job market. Each job had over 100 applications. Tenure track positions are typically based on research productivity, not teaching prowess, though some schools do care about teaching. My institution values teaching skill and hired with that in mind.

ETA: For additional perspective for anyone thinking about this life course, I also advise students that getting a PhD is the easy part Getting a J-O-B is the really hard part, and surprisingly, the criteria to achieve each is very different. For a PhD in my area, you complete some course work and write a thesis which often includes 2-4 experiments. But to get a job requires multiple publications, one of which should be first authored in a top journal. So for those interested in pursuing an academic position in a research-based field, the real work of graduate school is not the thesis or the class work, it is the other research one must conduct and publications one must earn to be competitive on the job market. Most people do post-doctoral work as well, before getting a job. It is a long haul, usually about 7-10 years post-graduate to get a job. Not a path I suggest one take lightly.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I think Ruby, only you and your husband know what is right for your life. I would suggest he talk with someone from each program and figure out which is a better "fit." For me it was the counseling route. He might have a different perspective. That said, I find it a bit disheartening anyone would put down someone's degree.

Rubybeth's husband may or may not know now what will be best for him. The more information he gets, the better able he will be to make an informed decision eventually.

I am sorry that you feel I "put down" your degree. I do not consider the Marriage and Family Therapy degree to be lacking in worth. A wonderful licensed marriage and family therapist at a partial hospital program helped my own daughter. But I refuse to pull punches and say that I think that the marriage and family counseling degree is the equal of the MSW when I do not. I think it is substantive, but not close to the MSW.

Deb/AGBF

FWIW, my degree is not in Marriage and Family Therapy. However, I would have chosen than over a MSW. I am just given my point of view from someone who just completed a counseling program and is familiar to the coursework involved. I am sure the field (all the fields) are constantly changing and evolving. I do not disagree that a therapist is never done learning or that personal therapy is important.

 

[Haven]

For you teachers, I had no idea adjunct faculty make peanuts! I feel so badly. My favorites are adjunct faculty. What makes a person a tenure? # of years served? Or just an opening for a FT position?

Adjunct faculty are part-time instructors, whereas tenured or tenure-track faculty are FT professors. In community colleges, at least, it is very easy to get a position as an adjunct instructor, whereas FT positions are extremely rare and highly competitive[/b].

This is probably even more exaggerated in research-intensive, graduate degree granting universities. In Canada, there were five tenure track positions in my field in three years while I was on the job market. Each job had over 100 applications. Tenure track positions are typically based on research productivity, not teaching prowess, though some schools do care about teaching. My institution values teaching skill and hired with that in mind.

I'm certain you're correct.

I was the first new-hire in my department in eight years. We typically get 100 - 150 qualified applicants for every position advertised. We're currently in a hiring boom because one-third of our FT faculty are retiring over the next two years. (Our college is 42 years old, so many of the people who have been here since the beginning are now on their way out. My dean is in her 42nd year of work at the college!)

I served on our search committee last year, and am serving on it again this year. We hired three new faculty last year, and will do the same again this year. Last year we just over 300 qualified applicants, and this year it looks like it will be about the same. (We are filling positions in three different areas of English, hence the huge applicant numbers.) There is nothing more humbling than serving on a search committee and realizing how *lucky* I am to have this position.

We look for teaching skill, as well as involvement in the field and service to the institution. But we are first and foremost a teaching institution, so that is definitely our priority. First round interviews begin with a teaching demo for the search committee, and I can share that anyone who just stands up and lectures will be immediately out of the running for the position.

I can only imagine how massive your applicant pools are at a research institution. I shudder to think about serving on THAT search committee!

 

[Haven]

Salaries for Professors vary by field very widely. In Canada, engineers and computer engineers earn most, humanties earn least (generally), and the disparity is to the tune of DOUBLE. They also vary by institution type, with research intensive, graduate degree granting schools paying much more than schools offering only under graduate degrees (we do not have a college or community college system in Canada like in the US; such schools do not offer degrees), and salaries between those two types can also vary by up to 50%+.

But I can tell you, in Canada, if you are a prof at a major University you earn, what I consider to be, a very nice salary given the perks. Plus a defined benefits pension, which is rare. Anyways, its not all doom and gloom. Its less than industry, or what I could earn at a business school... but then I would have to work in industry. I don't think they would take kindly to my twice-weekly morning naps. Err. I mean "deep thinking sessions".

As it should be!
And . . .

 

[mandasand]

I have BA's in English and Art History. After working for five years, I went back and got my MBA with a marketing focus. At one point in my career I was laid off. I had a recruiter tell me to remove the MBA from my resume if I was applying for a job that didn't require an MBA degree. I thought to myself that I didn't spend 3 years in grad school for nothing. So, if a company passed me up because I have an MBA, then I wouldn't want to work for that kind of company anyway. I ended up working in biotech and the majority of my co-workers have Ph.Ds. I don't regret getting an MBA but I am not sure that it has advanced my career as much as I thought it would.

 

[Jennifer W]

I have an undergraduate and Masters degree in psychology, a degree in law and a postgraduate diploma in legal practice (the diploma is what lets you enter the legal profession here, not the law degree). I'm looking into starting a PhD on a part time basis, but at the moment I haven't done anything about registering interest in a program. I just started a new job, so maybe when I get a bit more on top of things there.

 

[Demelza]

All that said, I don't really think the training one receives in school is even the tip of the iceberg. As far as I'm concerned, the degree opens doors and allows you to gain experience, but it's the post-graduate training one receives in the field that is most important.

And I would like to take Demelza's point a step further. Not only is post-graduate training important, but so is personal therapy, which used to be required of the people who were then called "psychiatric social workers". As this article states, psychiatrists in the UK are, apparently, still required to undergo personal psychotherapy for the reasons that Freud suggested all psychoanalysts be psychoanalyzed.

I agree with this very strongly! My own therapy is the best training I could have had to become a therapist.

 

[Dreamer_D]

For you teachers, I had no idea adjunct faculty make peanuts! I feel so badly. My favorites are adjunct faculty. What makes a person a tenure? # of years served? Or just an opening for a FT position?

Adjunct faculty are part-time instructors, whereas tenured or tenure-track faculty are FT professors. In community colleges, at least, it is very easy to get a position as an adjunct instructor, whereas FT positions are extremely rare and highly competitive[/b].

This is probably even more exaggerated in research-intensive, graduate degree granting universities. In Canada, there were five tenure track positions in my field in three years while I was on the job market. Each job had over 100 applications. Tenure track positions are typically based on research productivity, not teaching prowess, though some schools do care about teaching. My institution values teaching skill and hired with that in mind.

[snip]

I can only imagine how massive your applicant pools are at a research institution. I shudder to think about serving on THAT search committee!

Its surprising, perhaps, but the application pools are much smaller for research institutions than the numbers you mention. Many PhD self-select out of the pool and opt for teaching positions, and jobs are usually targeted at a particular research topic. From there, it depends on the area. In some searches there may be only 8 qualified applicants! My area is a very popular area in psych so there are 100+ applicants per position. But clinical psychology has a much harder time finding applicants. Most clinical PhDs go into provate practice, not academia, because academia is not an easy row to hoe for clinical folks.

Anyways, like you I feel very lucky every day to have my job, which I love and find rewarding. I tend to teach classes of 100+, so it is more "lecturing", but it is still fun when a student comes to tell me they love my class and look forward to it each week Very satisfying and rewarding for sure.

 

[Haven]

That makes sense, Dreamer. (About the applicant pools.) One of our current open positions is for a generalist, so any PhD in English or comp/rhet can apply. That definitely makes for a large pool.

As for lecturing to 100+ student classes--I can't imagine another way to do it! Our English classes have caps of 20 or 26 students, which is an entirely different ball game.

 

[FrekeChild]

Haven, are the majority of the applicants to your institution local to you?

 

[Haven]

Haven, are the majority of the applicants to your institution local to you?

Not the majority, but close to it. Around 40% of applicants are local, 50% are from out-of-state, and 10% are international applicants. (I only know this because I just had a meeting w/HR where they shared these stats with us. Good timing!) Nearly all of our current adjuncts apply for the positions, so they make up most of that 40%.

We're located just outside of Chicago in a highly desirable district, so I imagine our pool looks different from what you'd see in a differently located CC.