ebay selling safety?

[scaredybling]

hello, everyone, and please forgive me if you've answered this question a gazillion times already (I did search through earlier posts and didn't find the exact answer, which is why I'm asking anyway)... I'd like to sell a large diamond on ebay, but have been reading reports about counterfeit cashier's checks, etc. I've read that you need to hold even a cashier's check from a buyer for 14 days to make sure it clears! Does anyone know whether bad cashier's checks -- and other rip offs -- are a big risk on ebay? Has anyone had a good experience selling diamonds online?
thanks for any advice: I'm a total newbie at all this and I'm trying to learn as much as I can before making any dumb moves! (P.S. If I don't try ebay I might let Christies or Sotheby's handle it?)

 

[neatfreak]

What exactly are you selling? That makes a big difference whether ebay or a place like Christies is your venue.

 

[denverappraiser]

A visit to a capable appraiser would almost certainly be useful to you. In addition to discussing what you have, they should be able to help you to develop a strategy for selling it into the most appropriate marketplace. The items that do well on ebay tend not to be the same as items that do well at the major auction houses.

Yes, counterfeit checks are a problem and I wouldn’t recommend you accept one. The most secure way to get paid is by credit card or cash.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[belle]

Date: 11/1/2007 12:36:30 PM
Author: denverappraiser
A visit to a capable appraiser would almost certainly be useful to you. In addition to discussing what you have, they should be able to help you to develop a strategy for selling it into the most appropriate marketplace. The items that do well on ebay tend not to be the same as items that do well at the major auction houses.

Yes, counterfeit checks are a problem and I wouldn’t recommend you accept one. The most secure way to get paid is by credit card or cash.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

great advice, as always, neil.

 

[antidentite]

I would definitely be careful selling (or buying on eBay).

I just sold an item for $630, and PayPal confirmed that I received the payment from the buyer. He had over 200 pieces of excellent feedback, and a confirmed paypal address, so after receiving payment confirmation I delivered him the item.

7 days later he reversed the payment with PayPal, and PayPal says this is legal. So now I''m out this product, AND I have to repay the $630 to PayPal.

I even sent the item with insurance, to his confirmed address, and included delivery confirmation. PayPal says that since I didnt get "signature confirmation," that they''re not going to do anything about it.

The moral of the story: even after you think everything''s alright with a buyer or seller, eBay and PayPal can still screw you!

 

[vivianv]

antidentite, did the buyer say the package was lost? Did they notify the PO?If you have proof it was delivered and they say it was not delivered then you should be working with the PO to get something going twords resolution. If the package was insured you should not be out anything. You should speak to the PO about this.In some instances this would be considered mail fraud...getting an item and the money.They will look into it. Talk to the PO ..and I would also fight Paypal.It is illegal for the buyer to have your item and the money.

Ebay is not the friendly place it used to be to buy and sell. You have to be careful both buying and selling.

 

[joflier]

Antidentite, please tell more about the paypal reversal....I sell alot of nice jewelry on ebay and haven''t had any experience like that, but that sounds scary.....Was there something else you could have done to prevent that from being done?


And scardybling, it probably depends on what pricerange the diamond is in and what kind of price your looking for...ebay isn''t the place to get top dollar or retail for your jewels, but if you have a low price, than its usually quick and easy money, but again depends on the price range, I do alot of jewelry diamonds and otherwise but mostly lower prices.
Also, with ebay, it would really depend how high your feedback is too. Most people aren''t comfortable paying high prices to a seller that doesn''t have a lot of feedback. If your feedback is less than 40, I would try to find a friend or ebay service that has high feedback to sell for you.
As far as payment, I''ve always felt very comfortable with paypal (except after hearing antidentite''s story) but i think that if you use that and ship it with insurance, tracking info, and required signature on delivery, you should be covered!

 

[antidentite]

Vivian - the buyer did not say the item was lost or damaged, so there's no way that the insurance I have on the package would cover this.
The buyer actually reversed the payment through his bank, which PayPal says is completely legal and legitimate, and they say there's nothing they can do to recover the funds even though they originally confirmed that the funds were deposited. In fact, they say that when the buyer reverses payment that it's my responsibility to work with the buyer to get the money back. But there's absolutely no incentive for the buyer to pay me if he's already received the product.

My problem with this whole thing is that I followed the terms of the Seller Protection Policy on the payment confirmation page to the letter, but after I got scammed PayPal pointed to a clause buried in their user agreement (Section 4.5 of their Legal Agreement!) that includes additional stipulations to their seller "protection" policy. Unfortunately, I did not comb through all the user and legal agreements and did not catch this discrepancy on their website.

Here's the letter I received from PayPal (through the BBB). Note the item in bold which is not mentioned on their site, just in the legal agreement:

"As you may recall, the Seller Protection Policy, which applies to Verified Business and Premier Accounts, reimburses sellers of certain types of goods who follow certain sound selling practices. If your transaction meets the qualification requirements for the Seller Protection Policy, PayPal will reimburse you for the amount of the Chargeback or Reversal and, if applicable, waive the Chargeback Fee.

Our Legal Agreement outlines that in order to qualify for coverage under the Seller Protection Policy, you must meet the following requirements:
* You must have a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account at the time of the transaction,
* The transaction must be between a US, UK or Canadian buyer and a US, UK or Canadian seller,
* The payment must be listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" on the "Transaction Details" page,
* You must accept a single payment from one PayPal Account for the purchase,
* You must not charge a surcharge for accepting PayPal,
* You must ship the purchased item to the address listed on the "Transaction Details" page, and that address must be identified as a Confirmed Address,
* You must ship the item to the buyer within 7 Days of receiving payment,
* You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an approved shipper to the address on the "Transaction Details" page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide online signed proof of delivery and
* You must respond to PayPal's requests for information within the time period PayPal specifies.

Section 4.5 of the Legal Agreement outlines Risk of Reversals, Chargebacks and Claims; when you receive a payment, you are liable to PayPal for the full amount of the payment plus any Fees if the payment is later invalidated for any reason. This means that you will be responsible for the amount of the payment, plus the applicable fees listed in Section 8 of the Agreement if you lose a Claim or a Chargeback, or if there is a Reversal of the payment. You agree to allow PayPal to recover any amounts due to PayPal by debiting your Balance. If there are insufficient funds in your Balance to cover your liability, you agree to reimburse PayPal through other means. If the transaction is eligible under the Seller Protection Policy in Section 11, PayPal will cover the amount of the Reversal or Chargeback and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable.

I do show that on October 11, 2007, PayPal contacted the buyer regarding this transaction; we would still encourage you to work directly with the buyer as well.

We regret that you have had this experience, as we strive to exceed our customers' expectations to provide a safe, secure method to send and receive money online. "

So the bottomline is that PayPal will side with the buyer even if they've committed fraud, unless you follow their user and legal agreements to the letter. I'm sure there are many other ways to exploit PayPal and eBay, and a quick search online confirms this (even eBay's own user forums are full of people who've been scammed).

 

[CaptAubrey]

Date: 11/2/2007 3:05:37 PM
Author: antidentite
So the bottomline is that PayPal will side with the buyer even if they''ve committed fraud, unless you follow their user and legal agreements to the letter. I''m sure there are many other ways to exploit PayPal and eBay, and a quick search online confirms this (even eBay''s own user forums are full of people who''ve been scammed).

Strictly speaking, PayPal is siding with itself, and it has to do with relative bargaining power. To make their bank account function work they way they do, they have to play by established banking rules, which allow these kinds of reverse payments. PayPal isn''t a big enough fish to make its own rules in that pond. So the only way to protect themselves from buyer-seller collusion to scam them (consider that two parties working together could falsely claim fraud and then force a refund through the bank) is to force their sellers to play by rules that are very heavily weighted in their favor. They''re the big fish in that pond, and there they can pretty much do what they want.

I do agree their terms should be more clear, but again, they don''t have much incentive to make it easy for sellers to avoid refunds.

 

[joflier]

So what is considered online signed proof? I''ll do a delivery confirmation, but I don''t know if that''s considered online signed.....

 

[kcoursolle]

I probably wouldn''t sell anything large on ebay. I''d talk to bill pearlman at pearlmans and have him consign it for you.

 

[antidentite]

Capt - you''re right in that PayPal is acting like a bank, but so far they''ve refused to be governed by the same rules and regulations that the banks adhere to. To me (and my lawyers), this is one of the major problems with PayPal.

Jolfier - delivery confirmation is NOT sufficient in order to be covered under PayPal''s Seller Protection Policy for items over $250. For that, you need SIGNATURE confirmation. When in doubt, pay the extra few bucks for online signature confirmation!

 

[joflier]

Date: 11/2/2007 5:48:43 PM
Author: antidentite
Capt - you''re right in that PayPal is acting like a bank, but so far they''ve refused to be governed by the same rules and regulations that the banks adhere to. To me (and my lawyers), this is one of the major problems with PayPal.

Jolfier - delivery confirmation is NOT sufficient in order to be covered under PayPal''s Seller Protection Policy for items over $250. For that, you need SIGNATURE confirmation. When in doubt, pay the extra few bucks for online signature confirmation!

I know usps offers a signature on delivery, so I was reading online, and the signature itself is only viewable from them by mail or fax.....When looking online, you can only view that the package has been delivered, not who signed for it...So would paypal deem this insufficent? If so, what shipping company would you use?

 

[vivianv]

Talk to the Post Office.
Did you insure the package for the full amount? If you did then the PO is supposed to get a signature. I think it is any insurance over $100 requires one.
You do have recourse even if it is not through Paypal. Try the PO as anything done through the mail is mail fraud [you shipped the item to them through the PO]. Its Federal.Call them up - you don''t even have to go there.

There used to be some wonderful OAI [online auction user] boards that were not affiliated with Ebay so you could talk and ask questions freely. I think the only one left is Vendio. You really should go to a board like that and ask for advice or read the archives. This sort of thing happens a lot more than you think but there are ways to resolve an issue such as this. It is not legal for a person to have both the money and the item. If they do a charge back they are required to send you the item back.

Did you talk to the buyer at all? Have you pulled their contact info through Ebay to call them up on the phone??

 

[stebbo]

Ebay - if you're going to use and escrow service, don't let the buyer suggest the agency--there are loads of 'fake' escrow agencies out there secretly owned by scamming sellers and buyers. And their web sites look a million dollars too...

Credit cards - wouldn't accept them, overseas buyers - no. Even Western Union - no, because more astute buyers will think you're the scammer.

Definitely don't do cash-on-pickup either if the item's worth a lot of money.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 11/3/2007 12:50:30 AM
Author: vivianv
There used to be some wonderful OAI [online auction user] boards that were not affiliated with Ebay so you could talk and ask questions freely. I think the only one left is Vendio. You really should go to a board like that and ask for advice or read the archives.

Paypal Sucks is another