Durability of GIA SI 1

[Swirl68]

This plot looks terrible, I know. But strictly from a durability standpoint, since it's a GIA SI 1, it should be fine right?

 

[tyty333]

How thick/thin is the girdle?

 

[Karl_K]

The plot is showing huge knot(s) , I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that even being possible and how it could be a si1.
Just based on that I would not consider it.
How big is the diamond?

 

[sledge]

The plot is showing huge knot(s) , I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that even being possible and how it could be a si1.
Just based on that I would not consider it.
How big is the diamond?

Ditto @Karl_K's thoughts.

What's the attraction to this stone? Heirloom of some sort? If not, seems easier to hit the reject button and move onto something with less headaches and concern.

 

[Swirl68]

I liked the faint brown with K color, the strong fluorescence, and the spread seemed good for a 1 carat.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I can totally see the point of skipping any round brilliant diamond that has any sort of...question or consideration.
BUT- it's far too easy to "throw the baby out with the bathwater"
Practical experience has shown me that a plot gives only the tiniest of bits of usable info.
For example- an SI1 plot which has a lot of stuff- many markings- will generally mean that each of the places marked are very faint/small.
So, using this logic, an SI1 with a single imperfection is likely to be worse than an SI1 with a lot of little boogers on the report....but unfortunately, even that won't be consistent.
Looking at the grade- I can see that the stone has some interesting grading aspects to it.
I look at a lot of stones that are interesting- so my focus, after durability- is more about appearance.
It's highly unlikely that a RBC diamond which GIA graded SI1 will have structural issues.

Bottom line for me I guess- if it's a 1.00 G/SI1 - of which there are a plethora of stones out there- elimination based on anything that may or may not be an issue feels like a sound game plan. G/SI1 1.00's are just like the bus- miss one, and there'll be another along in a moment.
BUT- if we're really speaking of grading, and imperfections- it's totally case by case. So any sort of unique diamond deserves it's own day in court.

 

[sledge]

I liked the faint brown with K color, the strong fluorescence, and the spread seemed good for a 1 carat.

You're getting good spread because you have a large table and shallow crown. Consequently, you will also have quite a bit of white light return, especially combined with the 80 LGF's. These proportions still fall within the "ideal" range but is a personality type of sorts. Many people prefer proportions that provide more fire/rainbow flashes.

I saw your other stone but will not hot link it.

Closest I could find to color, size, dollars, etc is the following. It doesn't have the faint brown tint nor the strong fluor; however, it does have proportions that would yield more fire. Also, it's about $800 more than the other one you found.

https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamond/99078945?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=2018

Immediately when I saw this, I thought of @lovedogs and her adventures to get a warm colored ideal cut stone. Prior to getting her gorgeous HPD/CBI N colored stone, she had sourced an amazing K with faint brown tint through IDJ. She got all the way to sending her setting to IDJ and them setting it when she received a call from HPD saying they could make her dreams come true. After some debate, she decided to cancel the IDJ order and do the HPD stone instead.

Below are certs, pictures, videos, ASET, etc on the IDJ stone. If it's still available, you should jump on it!

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...g-a-warm-slight-brown-1ct-stone.243106/page-2

Wanted to update with a new thread in case future users are searching by topic.

I started this thread https://www.pricescope.com/communit...tory-vs-super-ideal-diamond-questions.242933/ in order to get opinions on the relative value and cost of looking at virtual inventory vs. super ideals. The point behind the thread was to help inform my search for a 1ct stone to replace the OEC moissanite in my engagement ring.

I've been thinking about "upgrading" for over 2 years now, but wanted to be careful because it's such a sentimental setting (to me) and I didn't want to end up swapping stones multiple times unless I was totally sure.

I started with the following criteria:
An ideal cut stone
As close to 1ct (6.5mm) as possible, no less than 6.3 and no more than 6.6 because I was worried about it not fitting
Color was totally open since I actually like both warm and colorless stones for different reasons
Brown tones were a plus in a warm stone, but I didn't want anything dark, and didn't want to compromise cut for color
Max budget of 3K for the stone, potentially with a little wiggle room.

I quickly ran into a few issues. Namely, most vendors don't stock stones under K color in RB cut, and those that do are almost always limited to virtual inventory, which means less likely to have an ASET or IS. I spoke with @Rockdiamond because he had the "stone that got away" from the original thread, and also with Melissa/ @Wink from CBI.

Both have excellent customer service and are very nice and informative. Unfortunately, finding a CBI in a lower color (to make it affordable) wasn't going to be possible given the strict criteria for CBI stones. The closest was a 1.07 for 5,200, but that was honestly too much for my comfort zone (although I don't doubt for a second it would be worth it if I were more comfortable spending that much on a stone and/or richer!). The other option was an approx .85 within budget, but I really didn't want to go lower than 6.3mm.

DBL has lots of great stones, but none that were the perfect cut or color. I also looked at b2c and JA a lot, and got a few ASETs. JA was nice and helpful, but my favorite stone had a big feather on the table, which was a potential durability problem. B2C was really hard to talk to, and there were lots of communication problems. They were very confused about me liking warmer stones, and kept saying things like "all L diamonds will be dark brown", which didn't make sense. Also, lots of stones were unavailable for ASET or IS, which isn't great.

@PintoBean was awesome and suggested ID Jewelry. I first spoke with Lana, which involved a few miscommunications and was awkward at times. I was ready to give up or keep waiting until @PintoBean swooped in as my fairy godmother and told Yeukitel (spelling?) to call me directly yesterday. He found me a great option within 2 minutes on the phone, and is great. However, the stone he suggested wasn't quite *perfect*, so I had a few doubts. I spoke with him again this morning, and said I could raise my budget up to 3600 if that would significantly open up options for me. Within 2 minutes, he found THE ONE, and then went off to do his magic with negotiating on price.

He called me back this afternoon saying that the stone AND setting the stone in my existing setting would be in budget. I am totally thrilled and excited to see it.

The thing I think is important to know about B2C (or maybe others know this and I'm the only one who doesnt haha): they have an office in India, meaning they have access to stones that others simply can't get. Or not that others CAN'T get them, but that others can't get them AND have a return policy. I heard that from both IDJ and DBL: essentially, the people in India say that these vendors can get the stones, but without any return policy. So if I didn't like the stone, too bad for IDJ/DBL. They (or I) would have to eat the cost. Which doesn't work for me, or for either of those vendors, especially since I'm looking for colors that most people dislike--meaning it would be hard for the vendor to re-sell.


Sorry for the rant, but I hope this helps others! And for anyone who has made it this far, here's the GIA for my new stone, and I will certainly update with pics when I have them!

I'm a total fool and realized that I missed IDJ's pics on WhatsApp! I was going off his word and excitement, plus knowing 30 day returns and that he'd send pics/videos. Of course, he had already sent all of that hours ago!

And a video!

Not back in my hands yet, but already done, in the same day it arrived to IDJ! I asked them to make the claw prongs more "claw-like", since the pic makes it look like the ones on top aren't quite as sharp as the ones on the bottom. Yeutekil said it will ship tomorrow. I'm so excited! Videos to come!

And videos!!!!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I can totally see the point of skipping any round brilliant diamond that has any sort of...question or consideration.
BUT- it's far too easy to "throw the baby out with the bathwater"
Practical experience has shown me that a plot gives only the tiniest of bits of usable info.
For example- an SI1 plot which has a lot of stuff- many markings- will generally mean that each of the places marked are very faint/small.
So, using this logic, an SI1 with a single imperfection is likely to be worse than an SI1 with a lot of little boogers on the report....but unfortunately, even that won't be consistent.
Looking at the grade- I can see that the stone has some interesting grading aspects to it.
I look at a lot of stones that are interesting- so my focus, after durability- is more about appearance.
It's highly unlikely that a RBC diamond which GIA graded SI1 will have structural issues.

Bottom line for me I guess- if it's a 1.00 G/SI1 - of which there are a plethora of stones out there- elimination based on anything that may or may not be an issue feels like a sound game plan. G/SI1 1.00's are just like the bus- miss one, and there'll be another along in a moment.
BUT- if we're really speaking of grading, and imperfections- it's totally case by case. So any sort of unique diamond deserves it's own day in court.

Knots by definition are structural issues. Big knots are bigger issues, especially running along an edge. I am surprised the stone gets an Si1 for that reason alone. That grade generally would not be indicative of durability issues. But I would highly recommend the OP have this stone assessed by an independent gemologist before he is fully committed to the purchase.

 

[bmfang]

Cripes that’s one helluva knot. Would get that checked out by a gemmologist before you made a purchase.

Apart from that, the angle combos and remaining specs look good.

 

[lovedogs]

I'm nervous about durability here as well. I would try to find an alternative. What is your preferred budget and specs?

 

[Rockdiamond]

My first point- in a market where there's a gazillion G/SI1 RBC's, any sort of question seems good cause to move to the next stone. Light Brown K colors...not all that common.
I'm not suggesting in any way that OP buy ( or not buy) the diamond......BUT- I believe that in the interest of education, a discussion like this can be beneficial.

Knots by definition are structural issues

I agree Bryan- as are feathers- and even crystals can be said to have structural implications- which are all but meaningless in terms of durability in properly graded SI1 stones. The term "structural issues" makes it sound pretty bad.
Putting a nail in your wall to hang up a picture causes some sort of structural issues with your wall. But it's not enough to make any sort of appreciable effect.
I can't recall a round brilliant cut diamond, graded SI1 by GIA to evidence any sort of structural risk.
Maybe a marquise, or princess? But even then- having seen many broken diamonds over the years, it's been my experience that it's very rare they break due to, or in the area of an imperfection.

Sure, having a qualified Gemologist check over a stone makes good sense too.
Just don't paint with an overly broad brush- or that baby's goin' down with that bathwater!! ( it's analogy day)

 

[Swirl68]

I'm nervous about durability here as well. I would try to find an alternative. What is your preferred budget and specs?

I want to stay between $1800 and $2500 for a 1 carat or over with strong or very strong fluorescence. (Prefer very strong, actually.) I love pears, but cannot compromise on color there like I can with rounds. Might even consider an emerald. Nothing under 1 carat, size is my main want and then a pretty cut. I know some things have to give. So, color and clarity are where I want to compromise the most I think. I plan to put it in a pendant, but if one of the kids want it for a ring sometime in the future, I might give it to them. I'm in no hurry at all. I've been looking out for a bargain for a while. The inclusions in the picture and video looked definitely like something I could prong and live with, but then I saw the plot on the certificate and thought maybe this might be an exception to a SI 1 being durable. But if they were no problem, it might be a good deal for the price.

 

[lovedogs]

hmmm, potentially it helps that it's going in a pendant vs. a ring.

@Rockdiamond @Texas Leaguer and other trade members, I know you can't comment on specific stones, but IN GENERAL, would this type of inclusion worry you for a pendant stone?

 

[bmfang]

For me on a pendant I wouldn’t be as worried about. Particularly if it’s set in a bezel.

 

[Karl_K]

Just don't paint with an overly broad brush- or that baby's goin' down with that bathwater!! ( it's analogy day)

Throw out the bathwater when it has a gater in it that can bite you where the sun dont shine.
A huge knot is a gater in the bath water.

 

[Karl_K]

hmmm, potentially it helps that it's going in a pendant vs. a ring.

@Rockdiamond @Texas Leaguer and other trade members, I know you can't comment on specific stones, but IN GENERAL, would this type of inclusion worry you for a pendant stone?

Yes because it still gets banged around just not as much as a ring.
It is not like it is a one of a kind stone or anything super special that makes it worth taking chances.

 

[Swirl68]

But I would highly recommend the OP have this stone assessed by an independent gemologist before he is fully committed to the purchase.

With the actual diamond in hand will he be able to give me a definitive answer of yes it's just fine, or no it's not. The diamond has a 30 return policy and I had planned to do just this, but I was afraid I still might not be able to get a definite for sure answer even with the diamond in hand. Also, do you think he would be unwilling to set a diamond with this type of inclusion running along the edge. I know some of you guys are in trade, so hopefully one of you guys can answer this. If not, that's ok.

 

[Rockdiamond]

A few points....
I've seen plenty of chipped diamonds over the years. I can't remember a stone which chipped due specifically to an imperfection.
Remember, the stresses of the cutting wheel are far greater than what a human can do without tools.
So it comes down to a specifically correct impact, in terms of pressure and placement. Many chips that I've seen were likely to due to grain within the diamond, as opposed to imperfections.
Insurance is a great idea regardless.

I've seen plenty of GIA graded SI1 diamonds whose principal imperfection was a knot. Even stones where the sole imperfection was a knot. Remember, the more specific types of imperfections contained within a GIA grade, the smaller/ fainter they will be.
IOW- in an SI1 with only a knot the knot will be smaller/ less impactful than an SI1 with knot,and crystal, feather, etc.

Putting these two points together I can't imagine an SI1 sized knot in a round brilliant that would cause me to have durability concerns....

Again- if it's a common color/clarity/size, and an online sale, sure, move on.
But in cases of a unique stone, I would never disqualify a stone based on an SI1 knot.
YMMV

 

[sledge]

I plan to put it in a pendant, but if one of the kids want it for a ring sometime in the future, I might give it to them.

Who knows what the kids will want, but that the mere statement it COULD be used for a ring still gives me pause.

I agree Bryan- as are feathers- and even crystals can be said to have structural implications- which are all but meaningless in terms of durability in properly graded SI1 stones. The term "structural issues" makes it sound pretty bad.
Putting a nail in your wall to hang up a picture causes some sort of structural issues with your wall. But it's not enough to make any sort of appreciable effect.

The problem in your analogy is you are looking at things unilaterally. A tiny nail hole on a large wall placed in at a location that is non-critical ends up with an insignificant change in wall strength.

A more realistic comparison would be cutting holes or notches in ceiling rafters or floor joists for plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc. Essentially each time you do this, you weaken the structural member. There are rules you must follow about placement of said notches and holes that is dependent upon the size of the structural member along with placement location of the said hole/notch. For instance, you cannot notch or place a hole in the middle 1/3 section of a beam as that is the weakest cantilevered point.

Jumping back to diamonds, the size of the knot in comparison to the diamond size is considerable. Additionally the location is prone to failure. I believe this was Bryan's original point and one that should be heeded IMO.

Honestly, I just don't see a high enough reward to justify the risk. I'm not opposed to risk, but the more you take, the more reward you should get -- period. There are too many diamonds and with a little patience something else will come along. I stand by the position to pass.

 

[Karl_K]

With the actual diamond in hand will he be able to give me a definitive answer of yes it's just fine, or no it's not. The diamond has a 30 return policy and I had planned to do just this, but I was afraid I still might not be able to get a definite for sure answer even with the diamond in hand. Also, do you think he would be unwilling to set a diamond with this type of inclusion running along the edge. I know some of you guys are in trade, so hopefully one of you guys can answer this. If not, that's ok.

Huge knots are outside the comfort zone of many trade professionals but not all as shown by the opinions in this thread.
Predicting where any given one will fall is not possible.
I dont think anyone can give a definitive answer that it will never be issue or that it will 100% be an issue.
I can give an "opinion" that it is too much risk for me to recommend.
David who I respect a lot has the opinion that it is not to much risk for him to recommend.
Others have given their opinion also.
In the end its your money and you decide.

 

[Swirl68]

@sledge looking at the picture and video would you have expected the plot to look so bad?

 

[Swirl68]

Huge knots are outside the comfort zone of many trade professionals but not all as shown by the opinions in this thread.
Predicting where any given one will fall is not possible.
I dont think anyone can give a definitive answer that it will never be issue or that it will 100% be an issue.
I can give an "opinion" that it is too much risk for me to recommend.
David who I respect a lot has the opinion that it is not to much risk for him to recommend.
Others have given their opinion also.
In the end its your money and you decide.

Thank you! Dang. Not want I wanted to hear, but what I thought was the case.

 

[Swirl68]

Thanks to all that have tried to help me. It really helps to have such well explained and valuable opinions when trying to make to a decision. Pricescope is so awesome!!!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

hmmm, potentially it helps that it's going in a pendant vs. a ring.

@Rockdiamond @Texas Leaguer and other trade members, I know you can't comment on specific stones, but IN GENERAL, would this type of inclusion worry you for a pendant stone?

Yes, in general durability risks are lower on pendant stones, and even lower on earrings.

But you still have to set the stone, and there are pressures involved. A knot is a feature that results from the growth of a separate diamond within the host diamond. Because they've grown somewhat independently the two are not fully bonded by a continuous carbon lattice holding them together. Knots sometimes actually pull out on the cutting wheel leaving a cavity. Think of a knot in a piece of wood and how they can be knocked out pretty easily from the surrounding wood.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Knots by definition are structural issues.

I wouldn't buy a stone with that word on the report...that just me.

 

[sledge]

@sledge looking at the picture and video would you have expected the plot to look so bad?

As I've noted before, I do prefer higher clarity stones than others because I also like the stone to be mind clean in addition to eye clean.

As such I tend to pay attention to clarity plots and magnified views as a whole, and not independently. Knowing the knot was there I blew up the still pic and can see the concern from the top. I can't see or tell much about the bottom in the video but I don't particular care for the angle it was shot either. I think if you could examine with your eyes, hands and a scope you'd rotate the stone different and see more on the bottom.

I can understand why you asked the question as the video looks pretty good if you ignore the knot issues.

I like Bryan's analogy of a knot in a piece of wood. As a guy that has built a few things you like to hand pick your lumber to ensure it's not warped and doesn't have knots. Those imperfections affect strength and waste factors. While cost is greater for better grades of lumber, so is quality.

http://www.southernpine.com/grade-descriptions/

I am curious...why are you seeking a K with faint brown and strong to very strong fluor? Seems odd to me. I'm trying to find ways to open your search criteria up so we can help you find a better alternative.

To my knowledge we don't have a way to search only faint brown colorless stones. On JA you can do fancy colors but that is different. When I say we, I mean consumers. I'm sure trade members have advanced search engines.

 

[rockysalamander]

If you buy this stone, make sure the selling vendor of the stone actually sets if for you. They then hold the risk if the stone is damaged in the process. If a local vendor will obtain it for you, make sure they will accept the risk of setting the stone and will replace in-kind. Many will not. You can insure the stone with Jeweler's Mutual, which is the only US insurer I'm aware of that will cover the stone for setting risk.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Have any other trades members - or consumers participating - experienced breakage in a GIA graded SI1 that was associated with a knot?

It seems to be a “mind clean” issue.
By all means, skip whatever comment bothers you on a GIA report.
Some people won’t buy a Fluorescent diamond, others seek them out.
But science is often discussed here. Fear of breakage in an RBC graded SI1 is not based on reality.

 

[sledge]

Have any other trades members - or consumers participating - experienced breakage in a GIA graded SI1 that was associated with a knot?

It seems to be a “mind clean” issue.
By all means, skip whatever comment bothers you on a GIA report.
Some people won’t buy a Fluorescent diamond, others seek them out.
But science is often discussed here. Fear of breakage in an RBC graded SI1 is not based on reality.

No breakage but I simply wouldn't buy this stone. That said I'm a guy and buying as a gift as I don't buy diamonds for me. I wouldn't want to give as a gift, nor recommend to a friend when other better diamonds exist.

You mention fluor which again I consider different. First no structural issues but rather clarity issues that can be easily identified. The fear here is this diamond could break and there isn't a reasonable way to say it will or won't for sure. Unlike the fluor, we can't easily determine if the inclusion is truly harmless or not.

We do know that because of people's fear of fluor stones with medium+ levels trade at cheaper prices. And that as higher levels of fluor are detected in higher colors, the number of potential buyers decrease which again forces deeper discounts to move those stones.

While we may not be able to agree or accurately predict the durability of this knot, I do think we would agree it's unusual and very large. It's truly an outlier and using the example of fluor, the buyer pool will be unusually small so discounts should be abundantly plentiful to move this stone. I don't know this is happening as I can't find a near identical stone without a big knot.

Again it's a simple risk model at the end of the day. Rather real or perceived, there is risk and the more you take the more reward you should get for doing so. The reward in this case would be a great discount.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Have any other trades members - or consumers participating - experienced breakage in a GIA graded SI1 that was associated with a knot?

It seems to be a “mind clean” issue.
By all means, skip whatever comment bothers you on a GIA report.
Some people won’t buy a Fluorescent diamond, others seek them out.
But science is often discussed here. Fear of breakage in an RBC graded SI1 is not based on reality.

David, in general I agree with your premise, although I disagree with your last statement (I bolded). True, it is important that trade members not instill unnecessary fear in consumers. On the other hand, the OP asked specifically about durability issues with this stone. To say it is a non-issue because GIA graded it Si1 would be to instill a sense of full security that is not warranted in the case of a unique stone such as this.

I will add that in our practice we regularly reject Si1 for durability concerns. Many of those stones could probably be set with no mishap. But it makes sense to be conservative.