"DREAM TEAM" -Q#2 - PRINCESS CUTS/DIMENSIONS

[Appreciative-of-expertise]

Thanks, "Team" for help with Q#1. (see conclusions listed below)

Now for Q#2,Cuts & Dimensions. Please help me understand the differences in cut ratings and, for a princess, some guidelines as it relates to: pavilian/crown depth and angles, reasonable table sizes and what to look for relating to girdles.
"Thanks" Team!

Orig. Post: (90 DAY PLAN) – 3 Ct Princess + setting
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/forming-90-day-dream-team-wanna-join.9966/
$34k budget

Other Posts:
Q#1 - Color/Clarity https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/dream-team-q1-princess-color-clarity.10029/
Conclusions:
1. Target F-VS2/E-VS1, Faint – Neg. Florescent.
2. Body color is more apparent in Fancy cuts. Rely on “human visual capabilities”; review/compare stones for color & clarity differences in B&M shops in December
3. A VS stone will not have any face up visible inclusions if it was graded correctly.
4. Budget is still in line with my expectations.
Thanks,
Frank

(Next topic post will focus on certifications (both stones & appraisers)

 

[fuffi]

Try to be more methodical will ya?

I recommend this thread to anyone looking at princesses. It's got lots of helpful info:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/desirable-princess-cut-table-depth.4987/

 

[Mara]

One of the best sites to visit in terms of fancy cut grading, #'s to look for, and charts etc is www.gemappraisers.com.




Clikc on Cut Charts or DIY Cut Grading to put in #'s. But the Fancy Cut Charts will have ranges for you to look at. I would highly suggest if you want a well cut stone, you stick with something like a 1A, 1B, 2A and POSSIBLY 2B..but it depends. You will soon see what makes up a desirable cut of stone...which tables are too out of proportion, what crown angles to shy away from. The Cut Charts on the GA site will help you figure all of this out. Then you can determine what your priorities are, make a chart and/or list of ranges to stick with, and use that in your search.




As you will soon find out, there is no hard and fast rule to determining if a princess (or any fancy) stone is well-cut like there is with round brilliants. It's so much easier to find a well-cut RB than a well-cut princess or other stone. So you will really have to determine what your piorities are and STICK WITH THEM. For example it's hard to find princess cuts that don't have overly thick girdles. Ideally you'd probably want something like thin-med or thin-slightly thick or med-slightly thick..but alot of princess cuts I have seen out there are going to be thick-very thick or similar. So if you decide to find a princess with a desirable girdle, stick with it and don't get discouraged. You may have to turn up more rocks than the average RB searcher would...but you will find your stone. Especially with your budget.




That said, I will now try to lure you into thinking of OTHER types of fancy cut stone that are similar to princesses. If you do not have your heart (or your fiance's heart) absolutely dead-set on a princess, listen to this. Princess cut stones do not return the best amounts of light. Even well-cut princesses have idealscopes that are not that impressive in my opinion. But since you like the fancy look, I would highly suggest you do some research and at least check out some of the other similar cuts to a princess. These are probably more commonly called rounded squares....whereas the princess is a square with sharp edges, some of these other stones have more rounded edges but that same boxy square look. The one that I am currently enamored with is the Regent. Check out the www.goodoldgold.com site for more information and lots of pictures. Check out some of the ones for sale. Look at their idealscope images. Compare it with some of the same site's handpicked princess cuts. See the differences? Compare that Regent and Princess idealscope image to one of the same site's exceptionally cut round brilliants. This is where you can start to educate yourself on what to look for in terms of light return from your stone. This is why buying the $25 idealscope would be helpful if you plan to buy offline. You are looking for a stone with great light return. Find one that is as good as can be...as close as can be to a round brilliant. Alot of the newer cuts like the Regent, and Queen of Hearts have similar looks to the princess but much much better light return. That is what I would be looking for.




Some other similar cuts are the Lucere, Flanders, Hearts on Fire Dream, and then of course the Regent and Queen of Hearts.




That said, you can use the Gem Appraisers tools, your Idealscope, or a company that gives you IdealScope images of fancies...to help you with your decisions.




Also would note to check out SuperbCert.Com as a source for well-cut princesses (so I have heard)....and obviously GOG for all their magnificent research and pictures to help educate you.

 

[Appreciative-of-expertise]

Thanks, all, for the advise so far. Some of you questioned my flexibility to look at other "fancy" cuts.It's taken some time to "sneak" some insight - the answer is her heart appears to be set on the "Princess" cut. I still NEED YOUR HELP!!!i]b> IE: SCINTILATION,LEAKAGE, LIGHT OUT......Based on my reading recent posts and the responses to mine, my "targeted" specs are now: $34k budget (total)
3-3.33 ct, Princess
E-VS1 or F-VS1-VS2
Cut 1A/1B
Crown height >=10%
table smaller then depth (~5%); table in 53-57% range
Depth ~60-65%

1) What really is scintilation?
2) What is "graining"?
3) How much impact does the "polish" and "symetry" rankings have to the stone?
4) Are my "targeted" specs reasonable and, will they "start" my search for an awesome stone in the right direction??
Thanks, all!
Frank

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

----------------
On 11/16/2003 10:35:07 AM Appreciative-of-expertise wrote:





IE: SCINTILATION,LEAKAGE, LIGHT OUT......Based on my reading recent posts and the responses to mine, my 'targeted' specs are now: $34k budget (total)
3-3.33 ct, Princess
E-VS1 or F-VS1-VS2
Cut 1A/1B
Crown height >=10%
table smaller then depth (~5%); table in 53-57% range
Depth ~60-65%

1) What really is scintilation?
2) What is 'graining'?
3) How much impact does the 'polish' and 'symetry' rankings have to the stone?
4) Are my 'targeted' specs reasonable and, will they 'start' my search for an awesome stone in the right direction??
Thanks, all!
Frank


----------------[/i][/b]

Hi AOE,

Many of these questions have been answered and can be referenced in previous threads by using the search feature on this site.

A more in depth look can be found browsing through the tutorial on the GoodOldGold website...

[/i]

 

[valeria101]

Here goes:

#1: 3-3.33 ct, Princess / E-VS1 or F-VS1-VS2 / Cut 1A-1B / Crown >10% / table smaller then depth (~5%); table in 53-57% range / Depth ~60-65%
These look good to me! Teh depth range will give you a hard time finding such a wooper: for some reason most pricess cuts I see go rock bottom beyond 70%. I f you start asking for 3-3.3 ct, princess, E-G color, VS-SI1 (why on Earth not?, after all), below 65% depth, your range of choices should be rapidly narrowed down to a few stones at a time.

#2: What really is scintilation?
This tends to be answered in quite technical terms by each developer of cut grading systems... somewhere in the area of their empirical take on human perception of light. Have fun!

#3: 2) What is 'graining'?
Again some technical, smallest-print detail. If you see any, let me know! I haven't, even when certs were screaming 'internal graining' or 'surface graining' at me.

 

[valeria101]

CTD...

#4: 3) How much impact does the 'polish' and 'symetry' rankings have to the stone?
I have no idea wether someone did really compute price elasticity with respect to these features, or even go to the length of detailed senzitivity analysis ( UGH! ). As many other posts would agree around here, these are bad if they are not 'Good', at least. 'Very Good' and 'Excellent' are just as visually helpful as 'Good', they say. These should not be the heft of the argument for a price premium and definitely not compensate for any of the others parameters of the cut. And... 'very good' polish temd to be more often available then 'very good' symmetry. These are not a major point. If you get a princess with reasonable depth / crown / pavilion, and Good-Good polish / symmetry, you should be prowd!

#5 (ADDIN) PS: Most people think of princesses as square, but some are more square than others. If you happen to like rectangular princess cuts, you should keep in mind that you are asking for an item that the seller might have a hard time dispossing of, and ask for the respective lower side of the price range.

These is my variation on your point: budget, 3 ct range, E-G, VS-SI1, 60%-65% depth, square shape, Good or better polish & symmetry, pavillion hight above 10%. If you find more than 1 stone fitting in... WOW!

 

[valeria101]

CTD...

#6 (LAST AND LEAST) If you do have two choices, then look at the table size: it could be up to 70% for a nice stone indeed. Your range, I think, it is too narrow and shifted quite below what I would be looking for. I would say 5% around depth, going until 70%. I have not even seen yet a princess cut with such small table, and I would imagine it as a weird item indeed. But, who knows?

 

[valeria101]

Still me...
Keeping feasibility and average risk-aversion in mind, I could not help running the 'relaxed' specs above (E-G, 3-3.5, 60%-65% depth, any table) through that handy Pricescope search (just due diligence to this nice forum, right...) and found the two things below. I would give a second look to the second stone. I know is SI1, but no one should know, if those inclusions are just-so and the smaller table should imply a less steep pavillion angle and deeper crown, so a more appealing cut. I have not really went into close scrutiny with these. I expect your evaluation of these two examples should help, I'd say, with the next step of a better search procedure (contacting vendors with order).
I have seen you are still looking for a setting, do you have the 'steps' set for this process too?

 

[Rhino]

Greetings Frank,

Please scroll down for my answers to your questions.

----------------
On 11/16/2003 10:35:07 AM Appreciative-of-expertise wrote:

​

Thanks, all, for the advise so far. Some of you questioned my flexibility to look at other 'fancy' cuts.It's taken some time to 'sneak' some insight - the answer is her heart appears to be set on the 'Princess' cut. I still NEED YOUR HELP!!!
b> IE: SCINTILATION,LEAKAGE, LIGHT OUT......Based on my reading recent posts and the responses to mine, my 'targeted' specs are now: $34k budget (total)
3-3.33 ct, Princess
E-VS1 or F-VS1-VS2
Cut 1A/1B
Crown height >=10%
table smaller then depth (~5%); table in 53-57% range
Depth ~60-65%

This all sounds good but there are some things you should be aware of.

1. Rarely to never will you find princess cuts with a table 2. Rarely to never will you find a princess cut with a total depth 3. There are 2 approaches to purchasing the most beautiful princess cuts possible.
a. The numbers approach.
b. The optical approach.
If you are going to do this according to the numbers (which seems to be the route you are approaching here) you need a heckuva lot more information than just table/total depth & crown height. Your most important numbers are crown/pavilion angles but even more importanly knowing what angles compliment each other to produce the most visually stunning stone.Not many people, even in this industry have this knowledge.

What makes this a little complicated is you're going to need the crown angles and at least the averages of 2 sets of pavilion angles. The two sets of pavilion angles are ...

a. Those that run from the culet to the pointed edge of the princess cut (4 pavilion mains) (generally ranging between 37-42 degrees).
b. Those that run from the girdle edge midway down the pavilion (varying from 52-65 degrees).

This graphic depicts both.

/idealbb/files/princesspavilionangles1.gif

/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]ath o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f">/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]ath>

So my point is Frank, that if you’re going to base your purchase of cut quality on the numbers there are more numbers needed.Namely crown angles, and 2 sets of pavilion angles. What can be even more frustrating from the consumers stand point is most measuring devices only give either one pavilion angle measurement or the other and not both. The advanced Sarin ran with the DiaVision software can give every single facet measurement/angle by simply clicking on the 3d model it makes but that's a Sarin that very few have.

I also note that you’d like to keep within the AGA 1a/1b class which also sounds nice but are you aware that some of the most optically superior stones are those with crown heights between 13-15% (or AGA 3b’s or worse?)

I would emphasize to you that no one set of proportions dictate the optical superiority of a diamond and walking into this 34k decision with only crown height, table and total depth is akin to playing Russian roulette with your hard earned cash. I spend this kind of cash on diamonds for stock and never would I spend that much without knowing a lot more details. Are you a gambling man?

1) What really is scintilation?

It is the observance of movement of light (both white and colored) within the diamond as…

·The diamond is moving.

·The light sources are moving.

·The observer is moving.

·All of the above.

2) What is 'graining'?

Graining is an irregularity of the crystal structure within the diamond.It can sometimes impact the transparency of the diamond however in most circumstances does not.It canalso be associated with twinning and strain within a diamond as well (also structural irregularities).We feature pictures of all this phenomena on our Inclusions Gallery in our chapters on clarity in our tutorial.I recently had in my hands a BEAUTIFULLY cut diamond 1.9xct /www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]lace>E VS1/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]lace> which I wanted to purchase for stock.However the diamond had graining that affected it’s transparency and we turned the stone down.

3) How much impact does the 'polish' and 'symetry' rankings have to the stone?

I’d place more emphasis on symmetry than I would polish however an physical analysis of the stone will reveal how bogus or not the symmetry is.Optical symmetry I would deem more important than lab graded symmetry as optical symmetry affects aesthetic beauty more.

4) Are my 'targeted' specs reasonable and, will they 'start' my search for an awesome stone in the right direction??

Honestly Frank they really are not reasonable. Tables under 60 are virtually non existent as are total depths no greater than 65%.And even if you were to find a princess cut with a 64 depth, 57 table and a 10% crown … this does not guarantee an optical stunner.There are many question marks that would surround such a stone.

What are the 2 sets of pavilion angles?
What are the crown angles?
How much light return/leakage exists within the stone?

My advice to you would be to not lock yourself into any given set of proportions Frank.We recently ran into a stone I would typically pass up.It had a 72 depth with a 71 table, however upon investigating further found out the stone had an excellent combo of crown/pavilion angles.After calling the stone in and running an optical analysis on it, it had these LightScope results.

/idealbb/files/PR108FVS2-LT.jpg

And these BrillianceScope results.

/idealbb/files/PR108FVS2bscope.gif

This is a stone with some of the most incredible optics you’ll ever find in a princess cut but if you were using the guidelines you’re using it would have been immediately disqualified!

I'm not critical of a numerical approach but all of the advice I have ever seen given on what people think are ideal numbers is either not sound advice or incomplete information which is why I rarely comment when people post specs for princess cuts. Most of the time the information is incomplete or severely lacking.

Hope all this helps.

Rhino

Thanks, all!
Frank


----------------

 

[valeria101]

And a third... (first on this list): great specs, but visibly not square (a matter of taste, but commonly viewed as a detraction). Not that I do not agree with Jonathan - I really believe you will have a hard time indeed finding MORE number crunching in this area - I totally do. These pieces have to be seen and appraised. If light return is your priority, then further number crunching is the way to go, unfortunately (this is GOG's business model, not my hobby!).

 

[valeria101]

How bad can that table be? For that whitest color....

 

[Rhino]

Not to be a douser Valeria but princess cuts with tables that much greater than their total depths tend to have terrible light leakage.




Peace,


Rhino

 

[Mara]

I would note that personally, I would never buy a princess without an IdealScope image or a scope image of some sort. The numbers don't tell the whole story with fancies, as Rhino notes. In my opinion, you have a much better chance of using numbers and taking a chance on getting a really excellent stones when you are talking rounds, but not with fancies--too many other variables.




I want great light return in that fancy which is what reflects back to the eye, numbers aren't IT. On companies that have some sort of Scope (lightscope, firescope, idealscope) that can give you this image: GOG has scopes, as does SuperbCert (they also have some sort of special great cut princess from what I have heard), WhiteFlash has scopes but they would probably have to order in the stone, and also Diamond Brokers of Florida has a new princess cut that is supposed to be great...I think they do scope images as well. So I would only work with a vendor who can supply this to you to help your decision--or if you buy offline, buy your own IdealSscope and learn to use it to your advantage to help you choose your stone.

Good luck.

 

[Rank Amateur]

If I remember right barry's princesses at SC have small tables (55%?) which keep them from getting the AGA 1A cut grade. They DO score well on the BS. So what's that tell us?

I have no idea, though for $35k I'd be finding a way to look at these different princess "ideals" side by side to comepare their fire and scintillation!

R/A

 

[Mikesgirl]

I'm completely with Mara on this one. You've got to have some sort of scope image to really "see" a princess cut on the internet. The numbers can guide you, but it's just not as clear as the RB's with princess cuts. (One of the reasons this coward stayed away from them).

Next time I might get gutsier and go for a regent cut - particularly with Rhino there to guide.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 11/16/2003 9:38:43 PM Rhino wrote:


Not to be a douser Valeria but princess cuts with tables that much greater than their total depths tend to have terrible light leakage---------

Eh, Rhino,

I know, I know, but starting with the list of constraints of our friend here, I was just wandering what HE wants! I did not mention branded princesses, but I amglad many others did: it could be the way to go, if light return is the priority behind those numbers after all.

What is your take, on EFD's PrincessPlus ?

 

[valeria101]

Now it worked.... well, this is the PrincessPlus poster kid. I have seen a smaller one (about 1.2 cts) but not under relevant conditions (10X in jewelry store, no comparisons, no nothing...). But these come with some light return diagnostic, from a large scale manufacturer. What is bad (except potentilal premium for all that extra cutting care)?

 

[Appreciative-of-expertise]

"Thank You", friends, for the "level-set" that your responses have provided to me. Having been indulged in my work for the past month and away from this site has been good for me to come back fresh. My reading tonight of your responses has helped me to see that my initial expectations are not reasonable. I do not plan to purchase by "specs" alone but I have solicited your feedback on numbers to help me understand what is the ballpark regarding specs that may help me reach my ultimate goal which, by the way, is a fairly square stone with great light return, minimal leakage and scintilation that makes others say "wow!" Until I start searching for stones and retrieving angles/pavilian angles, I have focused my education toward the other parameters. What I am also hearing from your messages is that I need to sight-view fancies, side by side. If this is true, I'm feeling the push back to B&M type stores???? I do plan to spend time over the holidays looking at stones at "wholesalers" in the Pittsburgh area though I will not purchase until the February timeframe. For those of you who sale online, please continue to help educate me and I promise you a shot at earnining my business.

My new "targets" (Please review for reasonability)
PRICE RANGE: $34k, including setting
COLOR: E-F
CUT: 1B-2B
CLARITY: VS-VVS
TABLE: 60-63
DEPTH: 65-72
PAVILION ANGLES: ???
CROWN ANGLES: ???
SYMETRY: GOOD +
CROWN HEIGHT: <= 13%
All of your responses are being absorbed and I will take some of you up on your offers to communicate offline once my knowledge level grows a bit more.

As I look at B&Ms - should they all be able to provide me with crown/pavilion angles? Also, Rhino's note was very insightful regarding this topic. I need more help in understanding what are the ranges of PAV/CROWN angles that will point me in the right direction for requesting to see some stones?

Thanks, all!
Frank
Appreciative-of-Expertise

 

[Appreciative-of-expertise]

oops!...meant >9% on height

 

[Rhino]

One of your biggest challenges Frank will be finding a seller of diamonds who can provide the data you're looking for. While this should be common practice most sellers will start to look at you like you have four heads when you start asking for BOTH sets of pavilion angles, crown angles and how these angles and measurements relate to internal brilliance & fire.




Most are oblivious. The reason I know ... I speak to many people in this trade everyday and even many suppliers of princess cuts don't have a clue. I have to weed through their inventories to handpick the stones with the finest optical results. If I left it to them, "EVERY STONE IS JUST AS BEAUTIFUL" and to that my response would be ... NOT!

Regards,


Rhino

 

[Mara]

You do not necessarily need to shop offline in order to get a well cut fancy.




I would say..work with only those vendors who can give you things like IdealScope images and possibly BrillianceScope reports on these types of stones. IS images will show you the light return of the stone, something that is almost more important than numbers. Bscope reports will show you how the diamond looks in various lighting conditions. I would not buy a fancy without an IdealScope image, whether online with a vendor, or offline with my own IdealScope. Bscope is a nice to have...but IS..definite.

 

[Appreciative-of-expertise]

Thank you Mara/Rhino for your last response. However, your last response generated more questions such as:
What are the following used for? Should the stores have these? Lightscope, Firescope, Sarin

Related to Rhino's response, is there any general rule of thumb regarding ratios of angles? I sense that this is probably a differentiator of your services??? How does one know how to narrow down their search when working online with princess stones? Will light leakage be directly associated with stones having poor angle ratios?
Lastly, where might I purchase a personal magnifier?
Frank
Appreciative-of-Expertise

 

[Mara]

B&M stores won't have a LightScope..maybe an IdealScope but very rarely....maybe a Sarin machine..and definitely not a Bscope.

Your best shot at those are online...hence why I would still shop for a fancy online..and only with a vendor who could use these tools to help me choose an excellent stone.

 

[valeria101]

Ditto Mara!

Frank, no matter what your list of specs looks like, if you translate that in practice, your market is limited to sellers who already select their stones according to some direct measure of optical performance. Those are few, so your job should be qouite straight-forward. Could you select a princess based on the common GIA specs and ask for further info to check its optics? Sure, but you may end up shifting through a few dozens and this if the sellers agree and can get all those reports. Maybe you like this, but it is a dizying prospect foir me!

 

[Appreciative-of-expertise]

Thanks Mara & Valeria for your response. Unfortuately, it now leaves me very confused!! Pardon me if I am sounding dense, but what I think I am hearing is: 1)rely on specs if you are looking at roundstones, 2) With fancies, sight satisfaction is a more pronounced manner to purchase then specs. If I'm hearing you right, basically "bag" the concerns over specs until it comes down to assessing fair market value and rely on whomever I work with to find me an optically clean stone. If it looks good and is priced fairly, then it is a great stone.....am i hearing you guys right??? Whew!!!!

Frank

 

[Mara]

I think it will be hard to get any one 'consensus' on what the 'right way' is to do something.




Myself personally would not buy just using my eyes. Why? Because I did that once before and if the numbers don't match up, then I tend to second guess myself later. I would want something that looks spectacular to my eyes and has the numbers to match.




What I have found is that certain tools such as the IdealScope in particular will help determine what sort of look the stone will have in person. You want a nice balance in a stone of reds and blacks. The sarin numbers help you determine what sort of proportions the stone has. The Bscope would give you an idea of the stone in different lighting situations. The HCA if it's a RB will be able to give you a simulated idea of what areas the stone performs well in, or if it performs well at all.




However, some people will advocate buying with your eyes and they may not be as into the numbers. So everyone will have their own opinion. If you are looking for the one right way to do it, there is none. Everyone is going to have their own idea. I think you need to get out and see some stones in person if you have not already, and determine what your eye sees. Get some numbers on some stones, see what they would score on the AGA charts and similar, and get an IdealScope for in-person views. This may be a little study of your own. You may find that a stone looks great to you in person and then when you IdealScope it, it's got tons of light leakage. What does that mean? Who knows really. Would you still buy it?




In the end, you are the one buying the stone, so you should buy with what YOU feel most comfortable with. Numbers or by looks or using both...it's totally your call.




If you are looking for well cut princesses, check out the following:


www.superbcert.com -they have their own branded SC princesses which are supposed to be very nice. also have bscope reports, idealscope, pictures of stone etc. so you can gauge light return and performance.


www.goodoldgold.com - they have hand-picked princesses, bscope, idealscope, pictures of stone, etc.


www.dbof.com - they have their own branded stone, very pretty from pictures i have seen, don't know what sort of tools they have to help gauge, but i wouldn't buy without scope images and sarin.




If I were shopping for a princess, I'd shop at a company like the above, where I know that others have gotten stunning princess stones. I'd get the info, look at the images, reports, etc and make sure all the numbers matched. I'd be pretty sure my eyes would agree with the numbers. In my opinion it's too hard to start from scratch and randomly try to find a great princess. You need a great vendor, one who knows what you want and will help you get it, AND your own smarts in knowing what to ask for to corroborate the 'great cut' story.