Does this ruby worth $15,000 ?

[donnanwl]

I think it is really difficult for a non-professional people to judge a ruby worth to it''s price or not. Recently, I am interesting in a heart shape ruby with GRS certificate certified that it is Burma origin and the color is pigeon''s blood, but it is heated and graded as H(b), it is 4.52ct, does it worth this price? Someone said it is a good price because the stone is quite big but someone said the price is too much because it is H(b) grade. Please give me some advice or anyone could suggest me for a better selection? I am really confused. Help! Help! Help!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Are you sure it's not "H(be)" rather than "H(b)"?

GRS uses the term "H(be)" to designate corundum which has undergone high temperature beryllium diffused treatment.

If that's the case, the ruby is worth nowhere near $15,000.

 

[donnanwl]

Rich, it is great to have you reply, may be you won''t believe, i have read all you post on the Pricescope, you are one of my most-want to communicate member!

The GRS says it is H(b). If it is H(a), I will not hesitate to buy it, but it is H(b)........What do you think? Does it really worth to buy?

 

[widget]

Donnanwl...can you post a picture of this stone? Have you seen it in person?

I hesitate to say anything now that Richard''s joined...I''m strictly a consumer...but I think how a stone looks to you is probably more important than any paper rating.

I found this heat treated stunner at www.rwwise.com : 3.30ct ruby, inventory #7137. They don''t list their asking price, but it might be worth a call to find out for comparison.

4+ carat rubies of fine quality are pretty rare. If it were unheated, it would cost at least twice as much...probably much more. (Don''t you agree, Richard?)

I''d love to see a picture!

widget

 

[donnanwl]

Hi, widget, thanks so much for you info. It is a pity that i don''t have the picture of the stone. I just seen it at a exhibition so i don''t have the chance to take a picture for it. The stone is quite attracting since the color is nice and heart sharp is not that easy to find so it is quite attract me. but, same as you, i am a consumer, i really don''t want to pay an over price and $15,000 is not a small amount. So, i want to gather more info before i making decision.

I have visit www.RWWISE.com before, his stones are fabulous, i think they might be costy. but i will still try to e-mail him and get the price.

Thanks, Widget.

 

[elmo]

This will help: http://www.gemresearch.ch/treatment.htm.

H(b) is "Enhanced by heat. Minor residue(s) present".

Sounds like a good price if it''s a nice stone and if it checks out. I''d get a second opinion.

I think Richard Wise is asking something like $60k for his 3 carater.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 7/23/2006 2:54:49 PM
Author: donnanwl
Hi, widget, thanks so much for you info. It is a pity that i don't have the picture of the stone. I just seen it at a exhibition so i don't have the chance to take a picture for it. The stone is quite attracting since the color is nice and heart sharp is not that easy to find so it is quite attract me. but, same as you, i am a consumer, i really don't want to pay an over price and $15,000 is not a small amount. So, i want to gather more info before i making decision.

I have visit www.RWWISE.com before, his stones are fabulous, i think they might be costy. but i will still try to e-mail him and get the price.

Thanks, Widget.

Donnamwl: Helllo..

Like Elmo Mentions Burma top contendors are very pricey due to the availability and the premium that these Burmese gems carry because of their ability to fluoresce. The penomenon causes the color to radiate or glow which is uncharacteristic of gems from other localities Vietnam, Pakistan and Afghanistan also produce rubies which strongly fluoresce. Small amounts of rutile silk help scatter the light throughout the stone, but there is a balance as to how these inclusions detract from the stones beauty effecting the clarity to the point where it lowers thte value of the gem.

I think Richard has stones in his inventory which he has cherry picked from the best of the pile of Burma's available. I think he pays particular attention to not just fine stones, but stones with excellent clarity and crystal (Transparency). Unheated stones carry a premium of approximately 30-40% over non-heated stones. For example Richard has heated Exceptional Burma stones in the 1 carat range around $7500-$8000 per carat. He has a one 1 carat unheated Burma for $12000.00. I don't mind going with heated stones because in Ruby it improves both the color saturation and the "crystal" in which this process has the opposite affect in sapphire.

Let us know what you decide to do...

 

[colorchange]

GRS wouldn''t have certified as Burma a Berylium treated stone.


The problem is that most probably the stone is from Mong Shu rather than Mogok considering the treatment and Mong Shu rubies are not worth more than these from elswhere.

About the price, considering treatment, it''s quite expensive. Such treatment block entry to any high end jewellery, and the discount is very serious.

Josh, there is a serious difference between Mong Shu and Mogok, what you are describing is Mogok only...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/23/2006 3:44:03 PM
Author: elmo
This will help: http://www.gemresearch.ch/treatment.htm.

H(b) is ''Enhanced by heat. Minor residue(s) present''.

Thanks for the clarification with the heat treatment chart, Elmo.

Donnan, ignore my previous comment about the possibility of beryllium diffusion. GRS describes it as "Hbe", whereas the "Hb" stone you''re looking at is described as "minor heat treatment".

Now the $15,000 makes more sense, depending on color, clarity and cut. You need an appraiser familiar with ruby in order to get an idea if the price is correct. If you make the sale contingent upon the ruby appraising out to your satisfaction with the independent appraiser of your choice, with a reasonable right-of-return period (10-15 days?), then you can''t lose.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/23/2006 5:08:00 PM
Author: colorchange
GRS wouldn''t have certified as Burma a Berylium treated stone.

The problem is that most probably the stone is from Mong Shu rather than Mogok considering the treatment and Mong Shu rubies are not worth more than these from elswhere.

Yeah, makes sense colorchange. Also makes sense that it''s probably a Mong Shu stone.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 7/23/2006 5:08:00 PM
Author: colorchange
GRS wouldn't have certified as Burma a Berylium treated stone.


The problem is that most probably the stone is from Mong Shu rather than Mogok considering the treatment and Mong Shu rubies are not worth more than these from elswhere.

About the price, considering treatment, it's quite expensive. Such treatment block entry to any high end jewellery, and the discount is very serious.

Josh, there is a serious difference between Mong Shu and Mogok, what you are describing is Mogok only...

Colorchange: I agree. I should have adressed donnanwl question with the differences in both localities. I was emphasizing Mogok in regards to Elmo's post concerning Wise's stones. Thanks for the Clarification.

Even though about 1/2 way in between Mogok and the Tha Border ,the natural Mong-Hsu rubies without proper heat treatment are almost worthless. Before being treated the rough often display a bluish core.Mogok Stones also readily produce stars and Mong-Hsu rubies don't. I think you would agree the majority of the rubies sold in the market today are fractured-filled, heat-treated Mong-Hsu rubies out of Burma. The Mong-Hsu rubies keep the ruby market in Burma more stabil and don't carry the hefty premium such as there Mogok counterparts. There are many differences between both locales. The big issue as you outline is the price and a pricetag of $15,000 for a 4 carat Plus Burma stone should clue us in to location..

 

[colorchange]

Date: 7/24/2006 12:24:36 AM
Author: Colored Gemstone Nut

Date: 7/23/2006 5:08:00 PM
Author: colorchange
GRS wouldn''t have certified as Burma a Berylium treated stone.


The problem is that most probably the stone is from Mong Shu rather than Mogok considering the treatment and Mong Shu rubies are not worth more than these from elswhere.

About the price, considering treatment, it''s quite expensive. Such treatment block entry to any high end jewellery, and the discount is very serious.

Josh, there is a serious difference between Mong Shu and Mogok, what you are describing is Mogok only...

Colorchange: I agree. I should have adressed donnanwl question with the differences in both localities. I was emphasizing Mogok in regards to Elmo''s post concerning Wise''s stones. Thanks for the Clarification.

Even though about 1/2 way in between Mogok and the Tha Border ,the natural Mong-Hsu rubies without proper heat treatment are almost worthless. Before being treated the rough often display a bluish core.Mogok Stones also readily produce stars and Mong-Hsu rubies don''t. I think you would agree the majority of the rubies sold in the market today are fractured-filled, heat-treated Mong-Hsu rubies out of Burma. The Mong-Hsu rubies keep the ruby market in Burma more stabil and don''t carry the hefty premium such as there Mogok counterparts. There are many differences between both locales. The big issue as you outline is the price and a pricetag of $15,000 for a 4 carat Plus Burma stone should clue us in to location..

Very clearly, heart shape carries a premium, but you shouldn''t care about location.
The treatment affects velue very severly : most lab won''t tell how glass/flux filled it is but just wether it is or not.
You won''t see a glass filled ruby at VCA or such brand and they take a serious part of the best rubies.
For instance, I take great care in carrying no glass/flux filled material, because I don''t want to offer such stones to my clients. The result is I don''t carry a lot of rubies of course...

Most usually, labs will refuse to issue origin cert for glass filled matrerial also...

 

[donnanwl]

Elmo, thanks for your web-site, it is helpful. What do you think Richard Wise''s ruby from? Mokok or Mongsu or even Namya?

Josh, I also agree with Elmo that the ruby not seems like from Mokok. But, from the info i gather, most of the ruby from Mongsu is smaller than 2 cts, so, will it possible from Namya, the place you guys not ever mentioned? If so, will the value be different?

Color change, It is what i really concern, how much a 4.52ct heated mongsu H(b)-minor residue found heart shape ruby worth? I have done as what Rich said - find appraisers for the price idea, but the price range they advised were quite big difference. It do really make me confused. If i send the stone to AGL they only give the detailed report but not price.

And, it is quite scary to hear that a flux fill ruby is so worthless because i though heat-treated with flux healing is very common, even 90% ruby will do. Or, may be i should clarify: does all heat treatment comes with Borax(flux healing) or they are two seperated enhancements can only be heated but without flux healing? I understand a unheated mokok ruby is the best choice, but for that shape and weight and color it seems impossible to find or they are all kept in big brand and asking a high high price. What do you think i should choose with that budget?

Who has a nice big unheated heart shape red red ruby to sell? of course, with reasonable price?

Donna

 

[colorchange]

Date: 7/24/2006 1:32:28 PM
Author: donnanwl
Elmo, thanks for your web-site, it is helpful. What do you think Richard Wise''s ruby from? Mokok or Mongsu or even Namya?

Josh, I also agree with Elmo that the ruby not seems like from Mokok. But, from the info i gather, most of the ruby from Mongsu is smaller than 2 cts, so, will it possible from Namya, the place you guys not ever mentioned? If so, will the value be different?

Color change, It is what i really concern, how much a 4.52ct heated mongsu H(b)-minor residue found heart shape ruby worth? I have done as what Rich said - find appraisers for the price idea, but the price range they advised were quite big difference. It do really make me confused. If i send the stone to AGL they only give the detailed report but not price.

And, it is quite scary to hear that a flux fill ruby is so worthless because i though heat-treated with flux healing is very common, even 90% ruby will do. Or, may be i should clarify: does all heat treatment comes with Borax(flux healing) or they are two seperated enhancements can only be heated but without flux healing? I understand a unheated mokok ruby is the best choice, but for that shape and weight and color it seems impossible to find or they are all kept in big brand and asking a high high price. What do you think i should choose with that budget?

Who has a nice big unheated heart shape red red ruby to sell? of course, with reasonable price?

Donna

I have one heart shaped but not big... and you will pay at least 50 000 USD for a similar ruby as big and unheated.

There is very clearly two separate treatment, one that include flux, the other that don''t. Heat is a traditionnal treatment, heat with filling is called "Modern heat" in Thaïland, and though almost all rubies go through this treatment, the price difference is very severe as most would rank "aquarium gravel" without filling.

You won''t be able to find an appraiser for this because it is some very "touchy" problem.
For instance, I have been offered recently a Mogok ruby with minor residus, semi transparent cabochon of 20 Ct, the price was about this of a 1 Ct unheated, while, if it were unheated it would have been very expensive, the difference will be the same with star sapphire, I have recently sold for $8000 a 2.5 Ct transparent purplish red ruby from Mogok, unheated but with a little fracture, the very kind that is usually filled, and the same withouot the fracture would have been worth about 5 times more.
In facetted rubies, the difference is very much the same, a flux filled ruby from Mong Shu of 1 Ct may very well sell for $100 to $300.
But in the same time, some rubies will sell almost for the price of heated, because filling is an accident, and you can eliminate the filling. The problem is : would it look fine without filling, or would it be non gem quality.
That is extremely hard to tell and makes the price.

On a whole, I would not advise you to buy such ruby, because prices are still very unclear on the market for the finest ones.
What is clear is that there is not many ways to sell these ; it''s extremely hard, so the price should reflect this.

 

[donnanwl]

Colourchange, thank you for you detailed explanation. The estimated price for a heated and treated Mongsu ruby is really shocking me off! All the GRS report state the origin only Burma, won''t state Mogok or Mongsu, so most of the consumer will think it is a good stone only if it''s origin is Burma because everyone said Burma is the best origin for ruby, but now i think is quite misleading if the mogok and mongsu ruby has that huge price difference.

Nice color, big size, heart shape ruby is what i really love and been searching for years, when i found it, i though my dream is finally come true, but now it seems i have to make a careful consideration about it........

 

[colorchange]

Date: 7/24/2006 3:22:10 PM
Author: donnanwl
Colourchange, thank you for you detailed explanation. The estimated price for a heated and treated Mongsu ruby is really shocking me off! All the GRS report state the origin only Burma, won''t state Mogok or Mongsu, so most of the consumer will think it is a good stone only if it''s origin is Burma because everyone said Burma is the best origin for ruby, but now i think is quite misleading if the mogok and mongsu ruby has that huge price difference.

Nice color, big size, heart shape ruby is what i really love and been searching for years, when i found it, i though my dream is finally come true, but now it seems i have to make a careful consideration about it........

You would have to be very rich to afford such but just keep on searching.
I must say one of my customers once asked me for a heart shaped ruby of at least 5 Ct, it took me years to meet his will, it was a heat only ruby from Madagascar.

The price tags I have given are for fine but not extra fine quality in Thaïland by the way...


Mong Shu ruby is very similar to Madagascar, and I will never pay more than this (so I rarely buy some), ulike typical Mogok ruby that is truely oustanding with a strong fluorescence and glow.

I feel that origin report as they are used currently are very misleading. Labs should state origin, but also type of stone, ie "classical or old Burma", "new Burma", etc or why not "classical Burma type" for all rubies similar to Mogok, "Madagascar type" etc.

 

[colorchange]

If you really like it, you may negociate the price down BTW.

 

[donnanwl]

Colorchange, thanks for your advice. Will keep post for the going on.

Or, if you have similar for my request, please let me know.

Thanks.

 

[TKC]

Date: 7/24/2006 2:46:35 PM
Author: colorchange

Date: 7/24/2006 1:32:28 PM
Author: donnanwl
Elmo, thanks for your web-site, it is helpful. What do you think Richard Wise''s ruby from? Mokok or Mongsu or even Namya?

In facetted rubies, the difference is very much the same, a flux filled ruby from Mong Shu of 1 Ct may very well sell for $100 to $300.

I think this is very interesting topic

Is it that inexpensive that 1 carat Mong Hsu Ruby costs only $100 to $300. I think if not mistaken, the heated Mong Hsu rubies that Richard Wise sell are about $5,000 per carat for his a-bit-more-than-one-carat stones. I saw the prices when he put prices on his website before, but now he does not put there anymore. And, what about the rubies that ajsgems sells? Are they from Mogok or Mong Hsu? Their ruby prices are about $1,000 to $3,000 per carat for their 1 to 1.5 carats stones. And, it seems that they are wholsesale prices. Even though they are less expensive than Richard Wise''s, their ruby prices are still more than $1,000 per carat, not $100 to $300. If we really can get Mong Hsu rubies for $100 to $300 per carat, what is supposed to be the wholesale prices? $50 per carat?

It is really confusing. Any clarification for the price for these rubies?

I was also wondering the Ruby prices that Palagems sell? Anyone ever asked the price of their one-carat heated (with flux) Mong Hsu rubies? I am interesting in this topic because I love rubies.

 

[colorchange]

Date: 7/26/2006 5:21:43 AM
Author: TKC

Date: 7/24/2006 2:46:35 PM
Author: colorchange

Date: 7/24/2006 1:32:28 PM
Author: donnanwl
Elmo, thanks for your web-site, it is helpful. What do you think Richard Wise''s ruby from? Mokok or Mongsu or even Namya?

In facetted rubies, the difference is very much the same, a flux filled ruby from Mong Shu of 1 Ct may very well sell for $100 to $300.

I think this is very interesting topic

Is it that inexpensive that 1 carat Mong Hsu Ruby costs only $100 to $300. I think if not mistaken, the heated Mong Hsu rubies that Richard Wise sell are about $5,000 per carat for his a-bit-more-than-one-carat stones. I saw the prices when he put prices on his website before, but now he does not put there anymore. And, what about the rubies that ajsgems sells? Are they from Mogok or Mong Hsu? Their ruby prices are about $1,000 to $3,000 per carat for their 1 to 1.5 carats stones. And, it seems that they are wholsesale prices. Even though they are less expensive than Richard Wise''s, their ruby prices are still more than $1,000 per carat, not $100 to $300. If we really can get Mong Hsu rubies for $100 to $300 per carat, what is supposed to be the wholesale prices? $50 per carat?

It is really confusing. Any clarification for the price for these rubies?

I was also wondering the Ruby prices that Palagems sell? Anyone ever asked the price of their one-carat heated (with flux) Mong Hsu rubies? I am interesting in this topic because I love rubies.

First, I''m talking about wholesale prices in Asia, I shouldn''t have talked about it as it''s very confusing. Second the prices are for TREATED rubies, not heat only ones...
The prices I mentiones are prices for a 1 Ct good but not top quality stones, it is not a price/Ct you can apply to 2 Ct gems for instance.
I don''t know if ajsgems rubies are filled or not.
R. Wise rubies are not filled, and the price for a heat only ruby is extremely different from this of a glass filled one.

 

[smitcompton]

Dear TKC,
I was just as confused as you. I couldn''t understand if the 4+ ct ruby under consideration was only heat treated why did Donnal feel he had to back away from it. From my reading fine Mogok ruby is the best, but all the books say very fine rubies are found elsewhere and are pricey as well. I have seen glass treated rubies on ebay that people are bidding over $1,000 for. Mind you the ruby looked beautiful. I think just heat treatment is o.k. from Mong Hsu as well as Mogok. Good rubies are found all over from what I have read.

Thanks,
Annette

 

[donnanwl]

I will take the stone if it is only heated, but

it is not! It''s also flux healing that means it has fracture in it, that makes me not feel very comfortable, but, i have to admit that over 90% burmese ruby in the market are heat with flux healing, it seems so common......that really makes me can make my mind.

 

[TKC]

Date: 7/26/2006 10:16:31 AM
Author: colorchange



First, I''m talking about wholesale prices in Asia, I shouldn''t have talked about it as it''s very confusing. Second the prices are for TREATED rubies, not heat only ones...
The prices I mentiones are prices for a 1 Ct good but not top quality stones, it is not a price/Ct you can apply to 2 Ct gems for instance.
I don''t know if ajsgems rubies are filled or not.
R. Wise rubies are not filled, and the price for a heat only ruby is extremely different from this of a glass filled one.

Is there any different in price between heated with flux and glass filled rubies? In flux heated rubies, there are (in GRS report) H(a) and H(b), is there any different in price between both? Because, as far as I know heated only ruby can be graded as H(a) as well. On Richard Wise''s Mong Hsu rubies, they are said heated, but don''t know if they have been heated only or flux heated since he does not show the report which will usually tell the treatment. Anyone ever bought ruby from Richard?

 

[movie zombie]

haven''t bought a ruby but my spess is from richard. give him a call and i believe he will answer all your questions. he also has a good review and return policy for stones so you could possibly have him send it, have it appraised/checked out, and decide on whether or not you want it. i say all this assuming the stone you''re interested in is from richard. nothing is every ''inexpensive'' from richard but as noted above, he cherry picks all his stones, not just the rubies.

movie zombie

 

[colorchange]

Just because it looks like some understood that all Mong Shu rubies are treated : There are some fine rubies heat only or even unheated in Mong Shu also !