Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

does hearts and arrows mean that the cut is good?

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

mcblohe

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
223
Hi,
I''d like to know whether hearts and arrows will definitely guarantee that the cut will be good, regardless of whether it is from GIA, EGL or AGS lab certification?
Thanks
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
no, it just means that it was cut to get that symmetry.
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
There is more than one answer to this question. First what is hearts and arrows? Here is a link to that answer here on PS:
https://www.pricescope.com/hearts_indx.asp

Any company can claim that their diamond is a H&A. There are no generally accepted standards for H&A. Several years ago I tried to get the "H&A" companies to agree to one set of standards and could not get them to get on the same page.

So if company A says the diamond is H&A it does not mean the diamond has a good cut or is beautiful. Also if the diamond is inscribed H&A that does not mean that it is H&A.

You also need to know that GIA and EGL do not go by the same cutting standards that AGS does. AGS has always set the highest standards for cut in the industry. So an AGS Ideal cut diamond would not be the same as a GIA or EGL excellent cut diamond. Another point is an AGS Ideal or GIA excellent does not mean the diamond is H&A.
 

kantonburg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
8
This is an area I stumbled upon this past weekend at a local jewlery shop. They use the promotion of TruPassion Hearts and Arrows Brilliant Princess Cut.

They only had two princess stones and at the time I had no idea what H&A was so I honestly thought it was a complete gimmick. I come home and find it''s a pretty well sought after cut. I''m going back tomorrow to further look at the stones as they were very nice looking to the eye. The only thing I''m not sure of is if they have a true H&A scope. She did have the handheld thing that I put to my eye. The only thing is the colors were blue instead of the red that I see in EVERY picture. Should I be concerned that it''s blue and not red?
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
I will let Paul Slegers answer this in greater detail for the princess, or possibly John Quixote who can discuss it with Brian the Cutter, both of whom are involved with the production of AGS 0 cut grade princess cut diamonds. Paul has told me before that cutting square princess for the H&A pattern will NOT result in the best light return for the princess cut. I have never seen such a stone, nor do I know what kind of cut grade it would get from AGS, but I suspect that it is a gimmick and not going to receive an AGS 0 cut.

I reserve the right to be wrong, and would love to hear from someone in the trade who has personal knowledge of this cut and any AGS cutting grades that it has received.

Wink
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
P.S. I meant to also say that the stones I have seen that were square H&A stones would not qualify as princess cuts under the AGS system as they were actually slightly rounded, more like cushions than princess cuts and had cut corners, which would disqualify them for AGS cut grading as there are not yet any standards for cut corner princess cuts in the AGS system.

I do believe that Paul is correct in stating that it is not possible to cut a princess cut with H&A pattern, but it is possible to cut near square stones that have these, but they would not qualify as AGS princess cuts under current guidelines.

Again, I reserve the right to be wrong, this wonderful trade changes so much that it is hard to keep up with everything, although one runs hard and tries to at least keep close to up.

Wink
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
Date: 2/19/2007 10:17:08 AM
Author: dimonbob
There is more than one answer to this question. First what is hearts and arrows? Here is a link to that answer here on PS:
https://www.pricescope.com/hearts_indx.asp

Any company can claim that their diamond is a H&A. There are no generally accepted standards for H&A. Several years ago I tried to get the ''H&A'' companies to agree to one set of standards and could not get them to get on the same page.

So if company A says the diamond is H&A it does not mean the diamond has a good cut or is beautiful. Also if the diamond is inscribed H&A that does not mean that it is H&A.

You also need to know that GIA and EGL do not go by the same cutting standards that AGS does. AGS has always set the highest standards for cut in the industry. So an AGS Ideal cut diamond would not be the same as a GIA or EGL excellent cut diamond. Another point is an AGS Ideal or GIA excellent does not mean the diamond is H&A.
I would agree with part of what you said, but...

I have seen H&A stones, at least as most people describe them, that were no where near ideal cutting under the old description used prior to both AGS and GIA issuing their new standards that were H&A. I owned one once that had greater than a 60% table yet had a great H&A pattern. I don''t remember the depth, but it was an incredibly beautiful diamond despite not being ideal cut. I bought it in Antwerp precisely because it was so beautiful, and it made one of my clients VERY happy. This was long before I knew Paul Slegers and before he began cutting the infinity cuts.

In fact, I have never seen a diamond with H&A pattern that was not beautiful, and I have seen many stones that fell outside the old accepted norms for ideal that did have the pattern.

The optical symmetry and the great contrast given because of that symmetry goes a LONG way towards making the stone beautiful, even if not ideal.

Not denying that it is not possible to cut a H&A stone that would be ugly, just saying that I personally have never seen one. If I ever do see one I will find it interesting, and consider it an aberation from the norm. Usually such stones are quite beautiful, regardless of the lab grading them. (I would be concerned here with whether or not the color and clarity grades were accurate if done by many of the lesser labs.)

Granted, such stones are not what you and I normally trade in, but they are out there, and many, if not most of them, are still quite beautiful.

Wink
 

kantonburg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
8
Date: 2/19/2007 3:09:50 PM
Author: Wink
P.S. I meant to also say that the stones I have seen that were square H&A stones would not qualify as princess cuts under the AGS system as they were actually slightly rounded, more like cushions than princess cuts and had cut corners, which would disqualify them for AGS cut grading as there are not yet any standards for cut corner princess cuts in the AGS system.

I do believe that Paul is correct in stating that it is not possible to cut a princess cut with H&A pattern, but it is possible to cut near square stones that have these, but they would not qualify as AGS princess cuts under current guidelines.

Again, I reserve the right to be wrong, this wonderful trade changes so much that it is hard to keep up with everything, although one runs hard and tries to at least keep close to up.

Wink
Yep. The stones I looked at have 45 degree cuts on the corner. I have to admit it made it unique but my whole idea is if I''m paying a premium for H&A I want to know if this cut is legit. Even searching the major sites when you select princess cut the H&A option goes away.
 

tanalasta

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
323
H&A diamonds are diamonds with optically superior (well exceptional) symmetry. Provided of course the hearts and arrows are properly formed. Some vendors may label a diamond H&A when in reality, it doesn''t really have perfect H&A symmetry (e.g. some hearts slightly malformed) whereas some vendors like WF have a very strict criteria for what constitutes H&A.

H&A refers only to the symmetry of the diamond which the caveat that only certain proportions may contribute to the H&A effect. A diamond may have excellent symmetry and even be an ideal cut without H&A.

In the same note, whilst a lot of H&A diamonds are within ideal cut proportions or have excellent appearances, this is not to be assumed. There are steep-deep H&A''s and ugly H&A diamonds with non-ideal light performance.

So in short, H&A does not guarantee that the cut will be good and also depends on the vendor''s definition of H&A. However, there''s a good chance that that the diamond will be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    June’s Birthstone Trinity
    June’s Birthstone Trinity

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top