Does anyone know what's going on with spessartine pricing increases?

[ABloom]

I've been saving for a reddish orange spessartine garnet. I keep my eye on a few different listings. I noticed that this year, two vendors that I've been thinking of buying from have increased the price significantly on the larger (3+ carat) red-orange spessartines. As in, the gems have been sitting on their site for quite some time, then one vendor added $1000 to the price of their spessartines, and the other vendor added around $300-$400. For example, one gem went from $895 last year to $1895 this year.

Two vendors doing this isn't exactly a trend, I know, but it's been hard to find vendors that sell red-orange spessartine, so I haven't found any more examples. They didn't increase the price for smaller or yellow-orange spessartines. Does anyone know why this could be happening?

 

[Avondale]

I have no idea but I’ll still venture a guess.

it's been hard to find vendors that sell red-orange spessartine

I believe this more or less answers your question. Price goes up as availability goes down.

From what I’ve read, the vibrant red orange spess comes from Namibia but those deposits have been exhausted. The stones that come from Tanzania are the yellowish orange ones and even though people have been mentioning those are on the way to depletion, too, I still occasionally see them here and there. And last, we have the spessartites from Nigeria which have the undesirable brownish hue. Those seem to still be abundant. But even among them it’s difficult to find specimens with no brown.

You’re looking for top colour it seems, and if vendors estimate these stones will only become more difficult and expensive to replace, it’s only logical that they bump up the price tag.

 

[ABloom]

I have no idea but I’ll still venture a guess.



I believe this more or less answers your question. Price goes up as availability goes down.

From what I’ve read, the vibrant red orange spess comes from Namibia but those deposits have been exhausted. The stones that come from Tanzania are the yellowish orange ones and even though people have been mentioning those are on the way to depletion, too, I still occasionally see them here and there. And last, we have the spessartites from Nigeria which have the undesirable brownish hue. Those seem to still be abundant. But even among them it’s difficult to find specimens with no brown.

You’re looking for top colour it seems, and if vendors estimate these stones will only become more difficult and expensive to replace, it’s only logical that they bump up the price tag.

Thanks for your reply! I've actually been looking mostly at Nigerian spessartine. I don't think the ones I've been looking at are considered top color? @landscape posted this photo awhile back; as an example, the ones I've been looking at are similar in color to the bottom row.



Maybe the Nigerian ones I've been looking at just have less brown than most, so are less available.

 

[Avondale]

Have you seen this, then? https://loupetroop.com/listings/loo...from-gene-at-precision-gem-7-dot-28mm-cushion

 

[ABloom]

I didn't see that! The color is what I'm looking for, but I don't think I like the checkerboard cut. But thank you!

 

[Avondale]

The other idea I have is to just contact some lapidaries for a custom cut gem. I have one (also second hand) spess from Gene and it’s a-ma-zing, the precision cut just boosts it on another level. You also might want to keep an eye on Finewater gems, Gary posted that he’s currently travelling and replenishing stock, lord knows what beauties he’ll come back with.

 

[Glassgirl]

I don’t know what size you’re looking for but Dana at Master Cut Gems has a few really pretty ones that are orangey-red for under $200 for roughly 1.5 to 2.45 ct. gems. Here’s a link to a video of a few. There are more on his website. And I always look at the videos because his photography doesn’t do his stones justice.

His all appear to be from Nigeria but maybe some have a bit more brown than you’re looking for?

 

[fredflintstone]

I've been saving for a reddish orange spessartine garnet. I keep my eye on a few different listings. I noticed that this year, two vendors that I've been thinking of buying from have increased the price significantly on the larger (3+ carat) red-orange spessartines. As in, the gems have been sitting on their site for quite some time, then one vendor added $1000 to the price of their spessartines, and the other vendor added around $300-$400. For example, one gem went from $895 last year to $1895 this year.

Two vendors doing this isn't exactly a trend, I know, but it's been hard to find vendors that sell red-orange spessartine, so I haven't found any more examples. They didn't increase the price for smaller or yellow-orange spessartines. Does anyone know why this could be happening?

Price on most gemstones is rising like crazy. Many of these dealers that leave old prices up could not buy the stone for near the same price they bought it for. In some cases, more than their selling it for as source pricing for western dealers has really increased over the last year or so.

With that said, it sounds like these dealers are really trying to rake people over the coals. A good 5 or 6 carat red/orange spessartite should be around 300.00 a carat from good priced western dealers, say the USA. But there are many charging much more. Shop around.

 

[fredflintstone]

The other idea I have is to just contact some lapidaries for a custom cut gem. I have one (also second hand) spess from Gene and it’s a-ma-zing, the precision cut just boosts it on another level. You also might want to keep an eye on Finewater gems, Gary posted that he’s currently travelling and replenishing stock, lord knows what beauties he’ll come back with.

That will cost even more.

 

[fredflintstone]

Thanks for your reply! I've actually been looking mostly at Nigerian spessartine. I don't think the ones I've been looking at are considered top color? @landscape posted this photo awhile back; as an example, the ones I've been looking at are similar in color to the bottom row.



Maybe the Nigerian ones I've been looking at just have less brown than most, so are less available.

The top row of Spessartites are a nice mandarin color. If they look like that in person. They will be more expensive.

The big strongly reddish orange Spessartite on the middle of the second row is what I wrote about, that should be around $300 a carat,

 

[Avondale]

That will cost even more.

True, but if I was facing the choice, I’d rather pay for the quality of a professional’s honest work over satisfying a vendor’s attempt for a maximum mark up. And besides, Gene recently had a reddish spess for a perfectly reasonable price. Wasn’t available for long, as you can imagine.

 

[fredflintstone]

True, but if I was facing the choice, I’d rather pay for the quality of a professional’s honest work over satisfying a vendor’s attempt for a maximum mark up. And besides, Gene recently had a reddish spess for a perfectly reasonable price. Wasn’t available for long, as you can imagine.

Everyone should be able to sell or there would not be any stones to buy.

The truth is overseas cutting has caught up in many cases with the precision American cutters especially in Pakistan, but Sri Lanka and Thailand too and the reasonable USA vendors that are buying them are still selling them for much less than a precision custom cut stones for order and ones that are already cut from precision western lapidaries. Don’t get me wrong, I wish them all to stay in business, but it is a fact cutting standards from overseas has improved by leaps and bounds to rival all.

I wish everyone success but I'm also being honest and whether a vendor cuts stones or not if they are "honest" it is all work. Just because someone does not cut stones does not make them any less honest and they work very hard taking pictures, video to the best they can to represent a stone correctly. They work very hard on listing their stones on all selling venues available to them. Selling stones is not easy and is hard work, whether you cut them or not and making a living is even harder. A vendor always takes a chance whether buying rough to cut or a precut stone because there is no guarantee it won’t sit in inventory for months or even years.

I wish all success and who a person chooses to buy from is their prerogative, but always shop around. Just don't jump at the first stone that catches the eye. Ask questions. Ask for more videos or pictures if necessary. Most of all, be careful.

 

[T L]

You may be able to find an included spessartite for less. Some of the Tanzanian material has beautiful glittery inclusions. Cabochons often sell for less as well.

 

[PrecisionGem]

There has been a big jump in the price of the rough lately. I just looked through my database and found a stone that was similar size and color to the last one I cut. The older stone was from April 2012 from Nigeria, and the last one was from Nigeria and rough I bought this year in Tucson. The difference in the price of the rough 7.998 times.

It getting very hard to buy rough and cut and sell here and make much. The US market is not willing to accept what others are paying. I had many people I see in Tucson tell me they need to mark down their cut stones at the Tucson shows compared to what they can sell them for at Munich, Hong Kong and other shows outside the US.

 

[fredflintstone]

There has been a big jump in the price of the rough lately. I just looked through my database and found a stone that was similar size and color to the last one I cut. The older stone was from April 2012 from Nigeria, and the last one was from Nigeria and rough I bought this year in Tucson. The difference in the price of the rough 7.998 times.

It getting very hard to buy rough and cut and sell here and make much. The US market is not willing to accept what others are paying. I had many people I see in Tucson tell me they need to mark down their cut stones at the Tucson shows compared to what they can sell them for at Munich, Hong Kong and other shows outside the US.

Unfortunately, very true, Gene and no disrespect to you and all the other great lapidaries here in the United States. You all do a great job, but it was bound to happen that oversea cutting was going to improve as that is what people want.

May you be well, and business be good in these hard times. Maybe some of these oversea dealers will come to their senses, but I do not have a lot of hope they will because they are selling to everyone. Dealers and end buyers alike. Hard to compete with that, other than people still trust western dealers in USA, Europe, and Australia. Will that last as time goes by is anyone’s guess as these source dealers become more established with the end buyer market.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Unfortunately, very true, Gene and no disrespect to you and all the other great lapidaries here in the United States. You all do a great job, but it was bound to happen that oversea cutting was going to improve as that is what people want.

May you be well, and business be good in these hard times. Maybe some of these oversea dealers will come to their senses, but I do not have a lot of hope they will because they are selling to everyone. Dealers and end buyers alike. Hard to compete with that, other than people still trust western dealers in USA, Europe, and Australia. Will that last as time goes by is anyone’s guess as these source dealers become more established with the end buyer market.

The overseas cutting has in many cases improved, but I don't think is it up par with a lot of the US cutters, and their prices have been going up as well.

 

[fredflintstone]

There are quite a few sellers in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Thailand that do offer stones cut as well as American lapidary dealers. It was bound to happen and yes, there prices have risen too but are still considerably cheaper than American lapidaries/sellers.


No offence meant, but precision cutting started off in Germany (colored stones) and then to many American lapidaries too, with other western lapidaries following suite. It was only a matter of time before eastern dealers upgraded their cutting to those standards. Of course, not all of them but still plenty sell very well-cut precision stones.

What they lack with end buyers is the credibility that you and other western lapidary sellers have. Western dealers that do not cut go to these certain eastern vendors because prices are much cheaper. Source pricing always has been and of course their prices are rising but not close to western standards for pricing for the same quality stones.

I'm not saying this to knock what you do or any other western lapidary seller, but the fact is the competition has caught up from certain dealers in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Thailand. I know this because I still keep my eyes open to the market and my dealer friends are selling precision cut stones from these countries.

If anything as you wrote in your first post, rough has risen greatly for the western lapidary. Why, because they want to keep you out of the marketplace and sell stones, they themselves have cut from the rough.

It's business, but you have a very good reputation Gene and that is something that they do not have right now with end buyers in western countries. You will do well even if your profit margins will be less, unless due to necessity you must raise price because of the price of rough.

I really don't like it any more than you do but the internet is here and the competition from those countries know what western dealers are selling their stones for and know that western end buyers want precision cut stones. It was bound to happen.

Best wishes to you though and I hope that all goes well.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Price on most gemstones is rising like crazy. Many of these dealers that leave old prices up could not buy the stone for near the same price they bought it for. In some cases, more than their selling it for as source pricing for western dealers has really increased over the last year or so.

Agree 100%

 

[PrecisionGem]

There are quite a few sellers in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Thailand that do offer stones cut as well as American lapidary dealers. It was bound to happen and yes, there prices have risen too but are still considerably cheaper than American lapidaries/sellers.

I think this is try for many of new people here that have decided to jump into to cutting. A lot of this new crop of cutters think that they should be making per hour what a surgeon does. The reality is they are grinding stones, not doing liver transplants. I worked for 40 years as an engineer, and am now only doing cutting. I can't make half of what I made in engineering cutting. I think what works well for me as that during all those years working a real job, I was able to buy a lot of rough. My rough bag I don't weigh in grams, but in pounds. So now I am working through rough that I bought years ago for the most part.

You said:
"If anything as you wrote in your first post, rough has risen greatly for the western lapidary. Why, because they want to keep you out of the marketplace and sell stones, they themselves have cut from the rough."

I'm sure how valid this is, as most of the people I buy rough from only sell rough and are not involved in cutting at all. I do buy some Madagascan sapphire rough from a Sri Lankan dealer, who mainly sells cut stones. His cutters do a decent job, buy almost everything has a window. I sell at the same or lower price than his cut stones, and mine have no windows.

You said:
"I really don't like it any more than you do but the internet is here and the competition from those countries know what western dealers are selling their stones for and know that western end buyers want precision cut stones. It was bound to happen."

This is true, these guys see what western dealers are selling for, and have marked their prices up to similar levels. Western cutters used to be able to buy poorly cut stones and recut them at a nice profit, but that business model is getting much harder to do unless you can sell at a very high price.

 

[tomato]

I wish I could support small single shops but I just don’t have it in me to stalk websites to find a new drop. If I have to rely on luck to find a stone I’m interested in (that isn’t sold out) I just get frustrated and stop visiting that particular shop. I am not interested in stones under ~2 ct either unless it’s a pair, so it’s even less likely I will stumble upon “the one”. I often don’t know what I want til I see it, so custom ordering a gem doesn’t make much sense. If the day comes where I want something very specific though, I wouldn’t hesitate to hire someone stateside.

 

[fredflintstone]

I think this is try for many of new people here that have decided to jump into to cutting. A lot of this new crop of cutters think that they should be making per hour what a surgeon does. The reality is they are grinding stones, not doing liver transplants. I worked for 40 years as an engineer, and am now only doing cutting. I can't make half of what I made in engineering cutting. I think what works well for me as that during all those years working a real job, I was able to buy a lot of rough. My rough bag I don't weigh in grams, but in pounds. So now I am working through rough that I bought years ago for the most part.

You said:
"If anything as you wrote in your first post, rough has risen greatly for the western lapidary. Why, because they want to keep you out of the marketplace and sell stones, they themselves have cut from the rough."

I'm sure how valid this is, as most of the people I buy rough from only sell rough and are not involved in cutting at all. I do buy some Madagascan sapphire rough from a Sri Lankan dealer, who mainly sells cut stones. His cutters do a decent job, buy almost everything has a window. I sell at the same or lower price than his cut stones, and mine have no windows.

You said:
"I really don't like it any more than you do but the internet is here and the competition from those countries know what western dealers are selling their stones for and know that western end buyers want precision cut stones. It was bound to happen."

This is true, these guys see what western dealers are selling for, and have marked their prices up to similar levels. Western cutters used to be able to buy poorly cut stones and recut them at a nice profit, but that business model is getting much harder to do unless you can sell at a very high price.

I think this is try for many of new people here that have decided to jump into to cutting. A lot of this new crop of cutters think that they should be making per hour what a surgeon does. The reality is they are grinding stones, not doing liver transplants. I worked for 40 years as an engineer, and am now only doing cutting. I can't make half of what I made in engineering cutting. I think what works well for me as that during all those years working a real job, I was able to buy a lot of rough. My rough bag I don't weigh in grams, but in pounds. So now I am working through rough that I bought years ago for the most part.

You said:
"If anything as you wrote in your first post, rough has risen greatly for the western lapidary. Why, because they want to keep you out of the marketplace and sell stones, they themselves have cut from the rough."

I'm sure how valid this is, as most of the people I buy rough from only sell rough and are not involved in cutting at all. I do buy some Madagascan sapphire rough from a Sri Lankan dealer, who mainly sells cut stones. His cutters do a decent job, buy almost everything has a window. I sell at the same or lower price than his cut stones, and mine have no windows.

You said:
"I really don't like it any more than you do but the internet is here and the competition from those countries know what western dealers are selling their stones for and know that western end buyers want precision cut stones. It was bound to happen."

This is true, these guys see what western dealers are selling for, and have marked their prices up to similar levels. Western cutters used to be able to buy poorly cut stones and recut them at a nice profit, but that business model is getting much harder to do unless you can sell at a very high price.

Gene - "I think this is try for many of new people here that have decided to jump into to cutting. A lot of this new crop of cutters think that they should be making per hour what a surgeon does. The reality is they are grinding stones, not doing liver transplants. I worked for 40 years as an engineer, and am now only doing cutting. I can't make half of what I made in engineering cutting. I think what works well for me as that during all those years working a real job, I was able to buy a lot of rough. My rough bag I don't weigh in grams, but in pounds. So now I am working through rough that I bought years ago for the most part."


Yes, there are new lapidaries popping up all the time in the west and the east. Prices vary, but in Sri Lanka and Thailand they been cutting stones for generations, generations of family members. They've always been able to cut a great stone if needed, but it was the wave of the last 20 years or so with precision cutting that has spurred them on to keep up with the times so to speak.

I'm glad you're happier selling stones. It is always a good thing to be your own boss.

You said:
"If anything as you wrote in your first post, rough has risen greatly for the western lapidary. Why, because they want to keep you out of the marketplace and sell stones, they themselves have cut from the rough."

Gene - "I'm sure how valid this is, as most of the people I buy rough from only sell rough and are not involved in cutting at all. I do buy some Madagascan sapphire rough from a Sri Lankan dealer, who mainly sells cut stones. His cutters do a decent job, buy almost everything has a window. I sell at the same or lower price than his cut stones, and mine have no windows."

You buy most your rough out of Africa and probably Madgascar too, right? I'm speaking of Thailand, Sri Lanka, though they get much of their rough from Africa they are always the first ones there buying up rough, especially with new finds (at one time Thailand brokered 85% of the world colored stones), though you probably could add China to that too as being among the first to gobble up rough. But the country who is really trying to corner both the rough and cut market the most is Pakistan. They have been very aggressive, especially Tourmaline and Garnet, not to mention Peridot and the vast colored gemstone resources between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Tourmaline from Afghanistan has absolutely skyrocketed, beginning to look like what happened to Spinel after the Mahenge find. They are now a force in Africa too, to be reckoned with. There is an agenda there. They want to control the market of both rough and cut stones, and the last 10 years they have really became a force in the colored gemstone world. They have also moved into Thailand much more than they ever have to be at the center of the market, though Peshawar is becoming huge in the gemstone market very fast.

As I wrote before, you do a great job Gene. I respect your cutting, your knowledge. and your honesty.

May business be well for you.

P.S.

I don’t post much on boards so excuse my lack of knowing how to use quotations provided here.