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Do clouds in table create cloudines or haziness?

G

Gav

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
84
hi all

I’ve read that clouds on a table could be a cause of a hazy or cloudy appearance on a diamond. Was hoping to understand a bit more about this and what to be careful of when searching for a diamond

For example I have been shown the attached GIA and the comments section also state additional clouds are not shown. Is this usually an alarm bell?
Otherwise it seems the measurements are ok?

B033E379-D1E6-4E1C-A378-B33188C572B2.jpeg CB989494-3525-4D66-B06E-4E489A8144BA.jpeg
 
We need to know the clarity grading and the list of inclusions (in order).
 
tyty333 said:
We need to know the clarity grading and the list of inclusions (in order).
Click to expand...

Ditto. Clouds on a VS1 is different than clouds on an SI1.

When looking at the cert, it will give a legend of all the inclusions. They put them in order of what is most detrimental to least detrimental. Whatever is listed first is known as the "grade setting" inclusion.

Generally speaking you want to steer away from lower clarity stones where clouds are grade setting, and especially if they have remarks that "additional clouds are not shown" on the side.

If you post the actual FULL certificate we can provide a more accurate analysis. Black out the GIA number if you wish.

FYI, the table, CA and PA is not complimentary to each other. See the chart below. You can see this puts the stone in "excellent" territory with only a small potential of hitting ideal. Most here agree, excellent really isn't all that excellent so you want to be as deep into ideal territory as possible.

Capture.PNG
 
34/40.6 with in the gia rounding has a very high potentual to be ags0 as long as the pavilion facets dont go below 40.5.
Ditto on more information on what it says on the report.
 
sledge said:
Most here agree, excellent really isn't all that excellent so you want to be as deep into ideal territory as possible.
Click to expand...
Those charts are based on guidelines not what will actually be the grade, and some of my favorite combinations are around the edges of ags0 while there are diamonds that get ags0 that I dont like as much.
 
Karl_K said:
Those charts are based on guidelines not what will actually be the grade, and some of my favorite combinations are around the edges of ags0 while there are diamonds that get ags0 that I dont like as much.
Click to expand...

Not that I am questioning your judgment in a negative manner, but I am curious why some of your favorite combos are on the fringes of AGS0? In many other things in life I've come to appreciate and like items better with minor imperfections vs being exactly perfect. I suspect there is something your eyes like about how some of the imperfections mix & play with ideal properties.
 
sledge said:
Not that I am questioning your judgment in a negative manner, but I am curious why some of your favorite combos are on the fringes of AGS0? In many other things in life I've come to appreciate and like items better with minor imperfections vs being exactly perfect. I suspect there is something your eyes like about how some of the imperfections mix & play with ideal properties.
Click to expand...
No, it is a fact that the center of the range is not necessarily better than the fringes.
It is not a case where the best is in the center then it fades out on the edges.
The ags system is based on using their scan based criteria, if it meets the somewhat arbitrary and subjective criteria it gets the grade.
That a combination is on the edge of the cutting guidelines does not mean that it has imperfections both visually and scientifically and also does not mean it has inferior scores on the criteria within the grade.
Those are cutting guidelines to help cutters cut stones that if everything else is done the way ags likes has a good chance of getting ags0.

With in the ags0 grade is a range of appearances that ags considers equivalent in performance using their metric.
Remember ags does not grade appearance.
 
tyty333 said:
We need to know the clarity grading and the list of inclusions (in order).
Click to expand...


Hi all

The dealer explained it was a VS2++ 1.3 G colour 3xE with faint fluorescence

Sorry the dealer told me all this on the phone and only sent me those snapshot pictures. However I have a feeling only clouds are described as the inclusion. And the comments may say additional clouds and pinpoints not shown
 
Hi Gav...ask the dealer for the GIA number. We can look the report up to see the inclusions. At a VS2 level chances are slim that the clouds
are a problem.
 
Is this a stone that is local and you can look at in person? If ordering online do you want some more options? If so, list your criteria and budget.

With VS2 it could have a negative effect but is less likely. Would still be nice to see the whole cert, a magnified video, etc
 
tyty333 said:
Hi Gav...ask the dealer for the GIA number. We can look the report up to see the inclusions. At a VS2 level chances are slim that the clouds
are a problem.
Click to expand...

This particular dealer is quite challenging. When they show me stones they often blank out the GIA number or send me a snip it of just the dimensions

I am trying to source a video from them and picture. Are you able to tell anything from the pics I’ve posted so far? (First post)

They have described it has a 7.04x7.09 VS2++

Inclusions apparently are in the following order as:
Cloud
Needle
Feather
The comments say additional clouds and pinpoints not shown
 
sledge said:
Is this a stone that is local and you can look at in person? If ordering online do you want some more options? If so, list your criteria and budget.

With VS2 it could have a negative effect but is less likely. Would still be nice to see the whole cert, a magnified video, etc
Click to expand...

Hi, this stone is apparently through their suppliers so they don’t have it in store.

My main criteria is a really awesome cut with maximum light performance no milky or coloured inclusions. Budget is Australian dollars 12k-13k for the stone . Preference is G colour and dimensions that are at least 7x7 ( my partner specially wanted something around this size which equates to a 1.29-1.31 carat size). Fluorescence i am flexible and I have to date gone as VS2 as a base line

Would be awaeome if you had some suggestions.. I live in Australia so things are not as easy to get locally (except argyle diamonds which are out of my league)
 
I have been helping someone else with a very similar criteria list. He is being very indecisive but started a new thread today with his new short list. I can't include the short list options in good conscious as that would be a conflict of interest for me, but below are some of the options I presented that he rejected.

All are super ideals with complete images, video, AGS certs, etc. Cream of the crop performers. All prices are USD and I think leaves you enough room for 10% Aussie taxes. Best part is all these vendors are excellent people to work with and have very, very generous trade-in and return policies.

FYI, I did show the weight & size of each stone for easy reference. Although the HPD stone is a little less carat weight, it's only 0.10mm difference in size. It takes about 0.20mm difference for the human eye to detect a size difference so technically it's smaller, but visually it will look the same as our eyes can't tell that small of a difference.

Edited to Add:
Although you prefer VS+ clarity, really look at the certs on these SI1's. They are super clean and rival some VS2 certs. You should always verify (regardless of clarity) but these should easily all be eye clean stones.

HPD 1.22ct F SI1 6.88 x 6.90 - $10,832 wire
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10089

WF 1.285ct G VS2 6.95 x 6.97 - $11,057 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4011140.htm

VC 1.301ct F SI1 6.97 x 6.99 - $11,495 wire
https://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/ags104096334006-1.301-f-si1-ideal-hearts-arrows-round
 
2CF4C02D-E84A-478C-B3CB-A8BA283EE5A3.jpeg Thanks Sledge I’ll think about it the 1.285. The 1.3 is beyond my budget

As an update I attach a picture of the VS2 I was referring to that had cloud inclusions - keen to hear everyone’s opinion
The video seems too large to post
 
It is a magnified view, so seeing inclusions isn't abnormal. But I see why you are concerned. I would ask your jeweler to confirm if the stone is eye clean, and express your concerns to them. They should be able to call the supplier and have their gemologist give a review of the stone. Hopefully they can anyhow. Sometimes when dealing in virtual inventory (online), the suppliers are not always super cooperative.

For the video, have you considered uploading to YouTube, and posting that link back here?

Here is another for your consideration. Note this is a premium select, and just barely misses the criteria for the ACA line but it appears to be gorgeous.

1.40 G SI1 7.15x7.18 - $10,807
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3950139.htm
 
I think these clouds are going to be OK as they are clearly visible under mgnification making the VS2 honest.
if they are only visible under say 100X then they usually make the stone dull
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
I think these clouds are going to be OK as they are clearly visible under mgnification making the VS2 honest.
if they are only visible under say 100X then they usually make the stone dull
Click to expand...
Garry
Do you really use 100X to look at stones?
 
sledge said:
It is a magnified view, so seeing inclusions isn't abnormal. But I see why you are concerned. I would ask your jeweler to confirm if the stone is eye clean, and express your concerns to them. They should be able to call the supplier and have their gemologist give a review of the stone. Hopefully they can anyhow. Sometimes when dealing in virtual inventory (online), the suppliers are not always super cooperative.

For the video, have you considered uploading to YouTube, and posting that link back here?

Here is another for your consideration. Note this is a premium select, and just barely misses the criteria for the ACA line but it appears to be gorgeous.

1.40 G SI1 7.15x7.18 - $10,807
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3950139.htm
Click to expand...


That’s a great idea link to video attached. Would be great to hear everyone’s opinion

 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
I think these clouds are going to be OK as they are clearly visible under mgnification making the VS2 honest.
if they are only visible under say 100X then they usually make the stone dull
Click to expand...

Wow, 100x! Great info though, thanks for confirming.

And OP, the video looked good to me
 
sledge said:
Wow, 100x! Great info though, thanks for confirming.

And OP, the video looked good to me
Click to expand...


Thanks so sounds not withstanding the numerous white specs appearing in the picture this may be a safe stone to go for? I have managed to find the GIA certificate on a competitors website

8E1193AF-AE3B-4E61-84AE-1194BEA7AF7C.png
 
Hi All

Just bumping this post. So from what I have gathered the clouds may not be a huge concern. I checked with the dealer and they went back to the supplier to confirm Stone is eye clean.

I know there has been a lot of debate about the angles but overall do you think it will have a great light performance?

Also the concepts of fire and brilliance are unfamiliar to me. Does this stone have either based on what Info we have to date?

Based on the crown angle will it look dull on a ring when viewed at 8 Inches?
thankyou
 
Gav said:
Hi All

Just bumping this post. So from what I have gathered the clouds may not be a huge concern. I checked with the dealer and they went back to the supplier to confirm Stone is eye clean. If it was not eye clean then it would definitely not be cloudy dull. But as I said before - have it sent to an appraiser listed on this site under resources. You will not know. But because the clouds are marked as small clusters it should be OK.

I know there has been a lot of debate about the angles but overall do you think it will have a great light performance?

Also the concepts of fire and brilliance are unfamiliar to me. Does this stone have either based on what Info we have to date?

Based on the crown angle will it look dull on a ring when viewed at 8 Inches? Yes, probably, depending on the observer. Dark skin, big head and dark hair, big hat and it will be dead.
Try this, go into a jewlry store and take a big brimmed hat. Ask to see some round diamond rings and look at them close up with your big hat on, then take it off, then put it back on.shallow girl gif.gif
thankyou
Click to expand...
 
shallow girl gif.gif
 
Last edited:
Thanks Garry

I’m based in Sydney. Forum members mentioned you may be able to assist with finding an appropriate stone for me. I was wondering if you could help me source a stone and simple 18k white gold cathedral setting?

The main requirement was around a 1.3 carat (or with dimensions around 7x7) with a superior cut and no coloured inclusions, or haziness. To date my search had been based on VS2 G colours.

Is something amazing on those specs togethwr with a simple 18k white gold setting achievable at say a 14k aud budget?

Thabks in advance!
 
Sorry. No. I am a director of PS and do not sell on PS.
 
Ok understood, no problem.
 
hi Garry,

In terms of a stone that does not face up dull at 8inches what are the key attributes to look for?

on a 58 table should the crown be > 34.5, pavilion 40.7-40.8? Would that be a correct assessment or should I be avoiding tables of 58 altogether?

To date I’ve used the HCA as a weeding tool to take out anything above 2, but I have come across a number of HCA <1 for example the above stone I set out above. Should I be aiming for everything above HCA 1 but below 2 as a starting point ?

Thanks
Gavin
 
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