Distroted Fire Result in Brilliancescope

[Rhino]

Date: 9/13/2005 3:32:20 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 9/8/2005 7:52:37 PM
Author: Rhino
Ok... just clicked through all the stones you had listed as well as yours belle. Sorry but they are all sold with the exceptoin of the 1.02ct E VS2 which actually has a wrong Bscope posted (which we''re going to correct) and the 1.04ct I SI1 princess but there is no interference colors on those results.

You may have missed this response from me earlier in this thread.

Isn''t it interesting how a perception of one can be skewed by missing one post? I don''t fault you for this belle, its a simple mistake anyone (including myself) can make and probably has made ... just an observation. Don''t take it personally, please.

What I really wanted to say is if you go over stones on our site and find another ... I''ll be happy to do a rescan for you without the interference colors. I thought the example I posted would be sufficient. Did it not teach or show you what you wanted to learn? What exactly is the question you are seeking an answer to?

 

[belle]

i did not miss the post rhino. since you brought it up, i will say you are right... i did form a perception with that post.

when garry started this thread, i thought it was very interesting and was looking forward to your assistance in finding the answers to whether or not interference colors/newton''s rings had an effect on the results for color light return. it was a straight forward question and there were plenty of examples displaying the phenomenon to choose from to find the answer. the task was simple. rescan any of the stones that had results posted showing interference colors. since, as you have recently proven, it is easier to get a scan without the colors than it is to get one with them. when you posted that all of the stones showing interference colors were gone, a perception began to form due to a unique set of coincidences:


i thought that it was coincidental that you had a least six stones available showing interference colors and in less than two weeks they were gone and you couldn''t replicate the phenomenom again, even after garry told you exactly how to do it.

i thought it was coincidental that there is not a princess listed on your sight now that displays interference colors and most score in the h, low vh range for color light return.

i thought it was coincidental that a good number of princesses that showed obvious interference colors subsequently scored vh+ off the charts in color light return.


so yes, you are right, i formed a perception with that post. i gave you some time and went along hoping that you would clear up this perception with a valid and consistent comparison. i didn''t want to think that there was any correlation in these coincidences and i wanted proof that interference colors did not have any effect on color light return results.
you posted a pixaleted picture of a scan of a round (even though you yourself stated it occured more in princesses) of which, one had to, as you said, ''look carefully'' to see the interference colors. then you posted another picture of a scan (without any identifiying data such as carat weight, color or clarity) showing slightly different results and seemed to think that would be sufficient to settle the case.
you are an answer guy rhino. do you really feel your two scans were sufficient to make any conclusions?

my answer to your final question is no. what you posted did not show me what i wanted to learn. i wanted to know if color light return, especially in princess cuts, is effected by interference colors in bs results.
specifically, i wanted to know if cases of obvious interference colors contribute to a higher score in color light results.

the following picture shows a group of princess cuts from the original list that display interference colors/newtons rings and color light results that are vh+ off the charts. do interference colors have an effect on those results? that is the question.

 

[belle]

for comparison, here is a set of stones without interference colors

 

[strmrdr]

another set of stones without interference colors. Does this help your research?

 

[Kaleigh]

belle,
I am interested to learn as well whether these interference colors have an effect on the color light return results .

 

[belle]

thanks strm, but i have no doubt as to whether or not stones can be cut to produce high color light return. that was never in question. if i thought the answer was in the images available, i would not be asking for someone to scan for the differences in interference colors. so, no, that does not help the research. did you think it would?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/14/2005 7:08:39 PM
Author: kaleigh
belle,

I am interested to learn as well whether these interference colors have an effect on the color light return results .

It is interesting but the original batch is sold and the software no longer allows screen shots like it used too.
gemex is now rejecting any images with it so other than camera shots of the screen we wont be seeing it.

I dont see how rhino can controll that.

In the one he did manage to capture it showed no effect on the colored light return and increased white light return.
Im sure that he wont have a problem having chas look for it when scanning the next batch of stones in but it might be a while.
It looks like he has plenty of princess cuts for a bit.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/14/2005 7:18:05 PM
Author: belle
thanks strm, but i have no doubt as to whether or not stones can be cut to produce high color light return. that was never in question. if i thought the answer was in the images available, i would not be asking for someone to scan for the differences in interference colors. so, no, that does not help the research. did you think it would?

sure since all the ones you showed did not have vh3-vh3+ colored light return giving the impression that they couldnt do it without the interference colors.
So I think it helps to show diamonds getting it without the interference colors.

 

[MissAva]

So how much more reliable consistent is the new software? Why were these effects noticed prior to being posted, they are somewhat misleading to the consumer.

 

[belle]

Date: 9/14/2005 7:23:49 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/14/2005 7:18:05 PM
Author: belle
thanks strm, but i have no doubt as to whether or not stones can be cut to produce high color light return. that was never in question. if i thought the answer was in the images available, i would not be asking for someone to scan for the differences in interference colors. so, no, that does not help the research. did you think it would?

sure since all the ones you showed did not have vh3-vh3+ colored light return giving the impression that they couldnt do it without the interference colors.
So I think it helps to show diamonds getting it without the interference colors.

this is not something you can answer strm, unless you are hiding a bs machine in your basement.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/14/2005 7:57:58 PM
Author: belle

Date: 9/14/2005 7:23:49 PM

this is not something you can answer strm, unless you are hiding a bs machine in your basement.

Some would say there is one sitting in my computer chair
rofl!

 

[belle]

hehehehe....
i''ll admit, that thought crossed my mind.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/14/2005 8:40:36 PM
Author: belle
hehehehe....

i'll admit, that thought crossed my mind.

im crushed :{

 

[belle]

i meant the thought crossed my mind that some might think that.
i do not, of course.

 

[strmrdr]

oh ok then :}

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/14/2005 7:19:40 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/14/2005 7:08:39 PM
Author: kaleigh
belle,

I am interested to learn as well whether these interference colors have an effect on the color light return results .

It is interesting but the original batch is sold and the software no longer allows screen shots like it used too.
gemex is now rejecting any images with it so other than camera shots of the screen we wont be seeing it.

I dont see how rhino can controll that.

In the one he did manage to capture it showed no effect on the colored light return and increased white light return.
Im sure that he wont have a problem having chas look for it when scanning the next batch of stones in but it might be a while.
It looks like he has plenty of princess cuts for a bit.

Thank you for understanding strm and pointing out these facts. If time allows I am more than happy to sit with diamonds and scan till I get it to show you guys. If, for some reason I have given the impression that I am not willing to help in this study, please forgive. Time is a precious commodity these days and for some reason when I have sat with stones scanning, like I have today, didn't see these interference colors. I was thinking specifically of you belle when I was doing the scans and hoping to capture one for ya. Certain things have been taken out of my control but not just with me but all Gemex peeps. No more stones with this feature are posted that I know of and/or have been sold ... bad for the study but good in a sense

and as strmrdr pointed out, no more screen shots.

Nonetheless I really like it that you guys are interested in learning about these things and I TOO am interested as well. We have in times past ran the same diamond on the Gemex, even some duds that have been around for over a year just to see and compare if any changes in the software affected the results. In some stones we noted minor differences some even more but generally in the fancy category. One shape that had been introduced into the algorithms (although its been in the software for a while) is the modified square setting. There is a "square" setting and a "modified square" setting. Sometimes we'll run the same shape and at times will get one or the other shape assigned to it (square or mod sq). This is a little frustrating because clients who are comparing "squares" want to compare all squares on the same algorithm and the BS is MUCH harsher on the mod-square setting. So if a person wanted to compare results of a square princess with say a sq H&A or Lucere they'd have to contact me in email for the results and comparison.

Another issue that can alter results that we have experienced in the past is if dust accumulates on the lens. When we first got the BS and had it for almost a year I had noted that certain optical signatures were getting higher results than they normally got. I immediately contacted Gemex about this and it was REALLY tough to figure out what the problem was. Then Randy suggested for me to check the lens and sure enough, because of the location we had the device, small traces of dust had accumulated on the lens and it was diffusing the light that was emanating out of the diamond and into the lens capturing the images thus affecting the results. Once we properly cleaned the lens the problem was immediately alleviated and now when we do our calibrations it is a standard procedure here now to also check the lens while we ensure proper light intensity.

Just one thing I'd like to add to this discussion for clarity.

While we analyze and study results with the BS, one of the first studies I ever performed with the technology was how it correlated with the optical signature. This may sound odd but BrillianceScope technology helped me further understand Reflector based technology. In details that extend way past anything I learned at 8* and even till this day am still learning. I take a different approach to technologies than others might around here. First I test it to see if it corresponds with human eye observations. The lighting conditions must be considered first and foremost, then the diamonds must be compared under those same light conditions but in a regular practical viewing environment that a person may find themselves in. For example, in another thread someone was asking about BrillianceScope pictures and what they meant. I was quick to point out (as I am doing now as well) that no human being will ever view a diamond under those same light conditions. It's kinda funny in one sense cause some folks who have received diamonds think that they will see what the images show on the B'scope results. These are folks who never read our tutorial on the subject of course. So ... while a person will never view the diamond under that exact controlled lighting environment, the results of that optical exam reflect (and quite accurately I might add) how that diamond will appear in direct light conditions were they to examine 2 stones side by side with notable differences between the 2. How do I know? Besides the confirmation of my own eyes, literally thousands of people who have seen and made the comparisons for themselves. This is why we will only purchase and recommend certain *minimum* results.

In any case, the point I wanted to make was that, through experience I have learned what optical signatures produce certain BS results. If I know the BS results on a diamond and see a Relector image that contradicts it I would know it immediately. The thing is, since we use a different type of reflector than the IS, I can only make this verification via LightScope as it shows me the greater details in contrast between the reds.

I could say the same for other technologies as well. Imagem & Isee2 for example. A person will never view the diamond under the controlled lit environment in which the testing is done, however there are practical implications that come into play as a result of it's exam. Specifically the Isee2 (since I am familiar with this technology) as its testing is COMPLETELY different than the BS. I had a little trouble grasping this when it was introduced to me because up till that point I was so famiiliar with direct light testing, diffuse light testing ... well ... kinda escaped me. I used to read Garry and Mike Cowing talking about "contrast brilliance" ... haha... I didn't have a clue! Honestly ... I didn't know what the heck they were talking about. Now if given the opportunity, am honored to help anyone who doesn't understand. We've developed a pretty neat presentation on it in our store too that helps communicate the concept in easy to understand terms and graphics to demonstrate how it correllates to the observance of diamonds.

Ok...I've blabbed enough.

Sorry if we got off topic. Tomorrow I'll be heading to see THE ROLLING STONES!!!

When I get back and if not too busy I'll again attempt to find some stones with interference to take some pics of for ya'll. Thanks for your understanding.

Warm regards,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/14/2005 7:56:26 PM
Author: Matatora
So how much more reliable consistent is the new software? Why were these effects noticed prior to being posted, they are somewhat misleading to the consumer.

Hi Mata!

The new software, for the most part is extremely consistent in its results. We haven''t noticed any changes in that area except for the fact that we can not do screen shots. I can understand how it may be somewhat misleading. At this point the only metric we see it affected to some degree is the white light return from the example I posted which actually makes some sense. Colored light *may* have been increased a tick (can''t tell from that particular stone since it pegged colored light return in both shots) thus decreasing the white light return a tick. That may have been a possibility someone could draw from that example. Still I would not consider that enough of a difference to draw a wrong conclusion about the results as we teach that a stone with 2/3 VH''s is impossible to detect next to a stone with 3/3 if the "high" is on the mid to high side.

How''s you pup? Wilbur says woof!

 

[belle]

i was interested more in the effects of interference colors in princess cuts, but i am also curious as to what a rescan of rounds will produce.

i did a quick run through of the smaller listings and came up with these:

www.goodoldgold.com/1_722ct_j_si1_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_560ct_i_vs2_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_546ct_i_vs1_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_264ct_g_vs2_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_241ct_f_si1_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_202ct_h_si1_h%26a.htm

rhino, i''ve already saved screenshots as they are now with interference colors, so all you have to do is rescan the stones and post the results without any interference colors.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I agree Belle - diamonds like princess with much larger table size would be more interesting than smaller table rounds

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/16/2005 2:07:55 PM
Author: belle
i was interested more in the effects of interference colors in princess cuts, but i am also curious as to what a rescan of rounds will produce.

i did a quick run through of the smaller listings and came up with these:

www.goodoldgold.com/1_722ct_j_si1_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_560ct_i_vs2_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_546ct_i_vs1_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_264ct_g_vs2_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_241ct_f_si1_h%26a.htm
www.goodoldgold.com/1_202ct_h_si1_h%26a.htm

rhino, i''ve already saved screenshots as they are now with interference colors, so all you have to do is rescan the stones and post the results without any interference colors.

You are a dear. When I get up to work tomorrow, between appointments, as time allows I must address a response in one thread I was tackling long before this one. Once I complete that belle I''ll be happy to do a rescan for ya on these. If I can I''ll try and squeeze in one or two if I see I can''t finish my response in the other.

Thank you for doing this leg work for me and for considering where I was coming from.

 

[Rhino]

My apologies for taking so long. I finally found some free time to rescan these. This is the 1.72ct J SI1

 

[Rhino]

1.56ct I VS2

 

[Rhino]

1.546ct I VS1

 

[Rhino]

1.24ct F Si1

 

[Rhino]

1.20ct H SI1 ... The 1.26ct G VS2 in that list is not here anymore. These are all fresh scans that were done earlier this evening which I tooks pix of personally. Hope this helps.

 

[strmrdr]

interesting,
all the scans are within the margin of error that has been talked about before run to run.
And it was white light that moved.

Thanks Rhino

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks Rhino.
It seems to show that the interference colors do not play a big role.

But there are quite a lot of variances in the other two factors - light return and ''scintillation''.

 

[belle]

yes, thank you for doing this rhino..
from what you have posted, interference colors do not seem to have an appreciable effect on the fire results for these particular stones.

 

[Rhino]

No prob. There are other things we''ve discovered which we''ll discuss at a later time perhaps. I''d prefer not to raise questions right now because I just don''t have the time lately to come here as I''d like.

Kind regards,

 

[kenny]

I work in engineering.
No test equipment is perfect; it is accurate only to some specified tolerance.

When we see variation (exceeding that tolerance) in several measurements of the same item (or get data from another test set up that differs appreciably) we never report a single measurement.
We troubleshoot, calibrate, repair or modify the set up(s) so measurements become repeatable.

If tolerances are not acceptable we buy better equipment, or inform the customers of the variation allowed by the spec.

Yes, here we have seen variation in two BS measurement of the same stones.
But what is the spec on the BS?
How much variation on the scale is within spec for each of the three parameters?

It is possible nothing is wrong here.
It is possible that the erroneous assumption of perfect repeatability is all that needs to be addressed.