Difference b/t Hearts and Arrow and Premium Cut

[majupa611]

Whiteflash has sent me stats on two round diamonds that are both A cut Above Hearts and Arrows. Keeping in mind that I would like a diamond in the 1.60-1.70 range and want to spend no more than 13,500 they said cuts the most important (which i agree) and so I should go w/ H&A. I was wondering what hte difference b/t their Hearts and Arrow is compared to the Premium cut diamonds on engagementringsdirect''s website? Are ERD''s premium cut diamonds a level below the H&As and considered premium cut only within that group? I guess I thought as long as the diamond was ideal/premium/excellent cut you were ok and it didn''t have to be H&A.. I mean how come ERD doesn''t have Hearts and ARrows diamonds? Does that mean their diamonds are a step below? I thought I was on the right track. Now i''m confused! Maria

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

well, I don't know much about the ERD site, but I do know that Hearts and arrows is a phenomenon found by very particular symmetry and certainly angles, etc, and that having hearts and arrows is not guaranteed of all top of the line cuts, it isn't, from my understanding, necessary to have Hearts to have top of the line performance and all HandA will not by default have top of the line performance. From a brief moment going over their site it seems very likely to me that many of those diamonds do have the Hearts and Arrows phenomenon but simply don't have it specified.

 

[Skippy123]

you can tell ERD you are looking specifically to find a hearts and arrows diamond. I would call them about that.
Here is a topic. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hearts-arrows-how-to-label-different-standards.21515/

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 7/13/2007 9:16:25 PM
Author:majupa611
Does that mean their diamonds are a step below? I thought I was on the right track. Now i'm confused! Maria

Some new sort of brand?

Actually...there is modest controversy about this topic of the perceived value of H&A. Generally...you pay some premium for diamonds recognizing this feature...and some say it's worth it, some don't.

I think this was not helpful.

Anyway...there is some controversy among experts. Ideally, you'll see both yourself.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think your goal should be to go with an ideal cut diamond, not necessarily hearts and arrows specifically. I''d want an AGS0 or GIA excellent that met AGS0 specs.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/13/2007 9:18:05 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
From a brief moment going over their site it seems very likely to me that many of those diamonds do have the Hearts and Arrows phenomenon but simply don''t have it specified.

H&A is the result of some careful work by the cutter. Extra time is required. It doesn’t just happen by accident. The problem comes in trying to define the boundaries between ‘true’ H&A and what doesn’t quite qualify. Central Gem lab in Japan has but a decent amount of effort into defining this but most dealers don’t use their system and their services are incredibly unusual outside of Japan. The result is that the dealers tend to use their own definitions and a lot of things that CGL wouldn’t even consider to be close get sold with the H&A moniker. ‘True’ H&A stones get sold for premium prices to both the dealers and consumers, which is why the cutters do it, and if a dealer is going to recover their costs and still make a profit they need to pass this cost along as part of the final bundle. If they’re going to pay and charge extra for it, you can bet they’re going to be mentioning it in their ads.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 7/14/2007 7:49:56 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 7/13/2007 9:18:05 PM

Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

From a brief moment going over their site it seems very likely to me that many of those diamonds do have the Hearts and Arrows phenomenon but simply don''t have it specified.

H&A is the result of some careful work by the cutter. Extra time is required. It doesn’t just happen by accident. The problem comes in trying to define the boundaries between ‘true’ H&A and what doesn’t quite qualify. Central Gem lab in Japan has but a decent amount of effort into defining this but most dealers don’t use their system and their services are incredibly unusual outside of Japan. The result is that the dealers tend to use their own definitions and a lot of things that CGL wouldn’t even consider to be close get sold with the H&A moniker. ‘True’ H&A stones get sold for premium prices to both the dealers and consumers, which is why the cutters do it, and if a dealer is going to recover their costs and still make a profit they need to pass this cost along as part of the final bundle. If they’re going to pay and charge extra for it, you can bet they’re going to be mentioning it in their ads.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Hey, I know you are busy but I was curious about a couple of things. You may not be able to respond to this but I will ask anyway. I assume WF is up to the Japanese standards of H&A but what about the James Allen H&A ideal? I haven''t really seen anything on the site listing how they define them as such, though they are certainly given that title. I also noticed that they have over 2000 Ideal cut diamonds with images but only some 280 have the H&A title, I suppose about 10-15% is pretty reasonable for displaying true hearts and arrows amongst ideals?

As to my own diamond, I am particularly interested in this because my FF is Japanese and you mentioned the Central Gem lab in Japan as setting the standard definition, so here is a link to it if you have time: My Hearts Image

The person who took the image does not normally take hearts images, she obliged me after much berating so that I can show them to my FF down the line, as I think my FF will really appreciate that extra romantic element involved. These are plenty good enough for that purpose regardless, but you will notice that the clefts appear somewhat long. I am wondering if this could very well be caused by the viewing angle that is obviously causing distortion in the overall image or if it is pretty conclusively not up to those high standards of what a TRUE hearts and arrows image is? perhaps it can''t be determined, but if you could rule it out as one then I would like to know that for myself at least.

On inspecting the diamond myself I do not recall seeing them be so pronounced, but they were somewhat present nonetheless. I didn''t really inspect them as well as I now wish I had while it was loose

 

[denverappraiser]

Based purely on the photos you provided, I don’t think CGL would call that an H&A but there are several elements of the photography that complicate it. You can’t really do much of a determination based on a photo unless you took the photo yourself and you have a standardized way of doing it.

Yes, the WF ACA line seems to be pretty tight with the Japanese CGL standards. Naturally, if you really want to be sure if a particular stone meets their requirements the only way to do it is to submit it to CGL for inspection. Unfortunately, they don’t have much on the web. Here’s what I have for their address and contact information.

Central Gem Laboratory
Miyagi Building,
5-15-14 Ueno, Taito-ku,
Tokyo 110-0005, Japan
Tél. : (+81) 03 3836 3219
Fax. : (+81) 03 3832 6861

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Thanks for your reply. I will just tell her it is a hearts and arrows and if she ever learns more I will explain it as that the picture was distorted and that I inspected it myself and it looks solid. Def not going to take the risk of any negative input at this point

Its good to know for myself though, maybe not be perfect, but I will tell myself it is anyway