DIF diamond

[Geminian]

I want to buy a perfect (or close to perfect) diamond for an engagement ring. Is the following one of such and is USD22,000 a good deal?

GIA Cert

Carat: 1.22 carat
Color: D
Clarity: IF
Cut: Ex
Polish Ex
Symmetry: Ex

 

[stone-cold11]

Nope, pavilion angle is too steep, there will be light leakage.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi geminian,

I would prefer to see a less steep pavilion angle, however an Idealscope or ASET image would be helpful if you want to find out more. Which seller has this diamond?

 

[Geminian]

May I ask what the ideal range for both angles are?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/5/2009 10:45:56 AM
Author: Geminian
May I ask what the ideal range for both angles are?

We prefer to see pavilion angles of 41 degrees or less, a good range is 40.6- 41 degrees to be on the safe side, along with a crown angle of 34- 35 degrees. If you could get an Idealscope or ASET image then that would be very helpful for this diamond to see how these angles work in this particular case, as SC mentions there is a possibility of light leakage with a steeper pavilion angle.

Here are some suitable angle combos from expert John Polllard.

"With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.
GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35)."

 

[Geminian]

The certificate is all that I can get hold of.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/5/2009 10:50:45 AM
Author: Geminian
The certificate is all that I can get hold of.

Is the diamond with Blue Nile if you don''t mind me asking? Just curious as they don''t supply images.

 

[Geminian]

Yes it is. Is there anything I can do about it or should I just go to another online shop?

 

[stone-cold11]

Do the vendor has a good return policy? If so, and you are willing to do shipping and waiting, get it independently appraised with an appraiser with ASET scope and ask for ASET image etc. If it does not look good, you can return it.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/5/2009 10:55:31 AM
Author: Geminian
Yes it is. Is there anything I can do about it or should I just go to another online shop?

You could order it and see what you think, D IF are a rare combo - BN do have a good return policy in case you weren't happy. Also we can take a look to see what else is out there that might suit you?

 

[Geminian]

Thanks both of you. Problem is I do not live in USA and it''s risky enough to have it shipped overseas once, so I''d rather make sure it''s THE ONE.

 

[stone-cold11]

This looks good, a bit pricer at 28k. Ask JA for IS and image of the stone.
1.252c D IF
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-IF-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1209527.asp

EDT:
H&A stone 1.201c E IF at 20.7K
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/Whiteflash-ACA-cut-diamond-1474660.htm

Or H&A stone, 1.32c D IF at 38k
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4965/

 

[Lorelei]

I don''t know if you have to have IF, but in case VVS1 is acceptable, this one could be a good choice. It looks like it is new, Jon should have the images up soon.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/PK836582/

 

[Geminian]

hmm.. I do want a DIF (just for the sake of DIF).

 

[Rhino]

Hi Geminian,

Having worked with this kind of combo from GIA 34/41.2 I will share with you some insights.

Firstly ... most all of the good folks here are basing a judgment off of the HCA (a free online tool here at PS) which penalizes diamonds with pavilion angles over 41.0 degrees. This will generate a bias against the diamond which in many instances is justified but then may not be justified.

There are 2 things that can potentially save this diamond from taking the justified hit on the HCA.

1. Since GIA rounds their pavilion angles, if this diamonds actual pavilion angle is 41.1 as opposed to 41.2 or 41.3 ... 41.1 is not the equivalent to jumping off of a cliff if that 41.1 angle is coupled with ...
2. Optical Symmetry is Superior.

We have had here in our lab diamonds with these proportions on the GIA Report and the diamond is just fine if it is a tightly cut stone with 41.1, and superior optical symmetry. I have a couple of diamonds here with actual 41.1 pavilion angles with superior Optical Symmetry and I purchased them and would encourage them as there is absolutely nothing wrong with them optically and are as beautiful as any other H&A we hand select.

On the other hand I've had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky Optical Symmetry ... GIA Ex's that got AGS 3 in light performance!

This could fall either way but without the data its impossible to tell and diamonds with superior optical symmetry constitute the minority of diamonds on the market (as rare as the D IF combo).

Regards,

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/5/2009 11:21:42 AM
Author: Geminian
hmm.. I do want a DIF (just for the sake of DIF).

Then take a look at SC's recommendations from James Allen or Goodoldgold, or as we said before you could order the original diamond and see how it looks. As noted it could be ok but without images it isn't possible to really tell - it could be a cracking diamond or the steeper pav angle might cause some leakage, but as BN don't offer images then it is guessing as to how the angle affects it. It is one of these combos where to me if images are available then well and good, especially as GIA round the numbers, but if no images then I am cautious. BN do have a good return policy if you wanted to order the diamond to see for yourself.

 

[DiamondFlame]

Date: 5/5/2009 10:40:54 AM
Author:Geminian
I want to buy a perfect (or close to perfect) diamond for an engagement ring. Is the following one of such and is USD22,000 a good deal?

GIA Cert

Carat: 1.22 carat
Color: D
Clarity: IF
Cut: Ex
Polish Ex
Symmetry: Ex

Is paying a hefty premium for top color/clarity - i.e. a difference you can''t see with your eyes- a good deal?
Not to me it isn''t. But that''s just me.

 

[Geminian]

Thanks all for the invaluable information and comments. I will seriously consider them before making my purchase. If anyone has any further suggestions, please feel free to let me know.

 

[Geminian]

Just focussing on the price for the time being. Is USD22,000 a good deal for a diamond of this quality? Leaving aside the angle blemishes, it seems it is (I stand to be corrected).

 

[stone-cold11]

Maybe it is the leakage that results in that low a price? Sometimes you really get what you paid for. As you said, you are not in US, are you willing to pay so much and waste so much time for the returns if it really turns out so?

EDT:
I think you could also ask the vendor to send it directly to an independent appraiser and let them look at it in terms of cut. If they don't think it is a good buy, they could send it back. If it is a good buy, shipped it to you?

 

[CPF0RY0U]

On another note... IF clarity is not perfect. If you magnify 40X, I''m sure there are inclusions

Anyways, even if it''s for the sake of having a D IF, I''m sure you could get an E VVS1 for example, and to the naked eye, you would not notice the difference in color or clarity.

Pictures are not up yet, but http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/PK836578/ seems like a near perfect diamond for 6K less.

There are also other good diamonds on HighPerformanceDiamonds.com, ACA, Dimend Scaasi, etc.

 

[Geminian]

Thank you guys. I have looked at more stones and this has my attention at the moment. From Blue Nile:

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-d-color-vvs1-clarity_LD01050082?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

Carat weight: 1.63
Cut: Ideal
Color: D
Clarity: VVS1

Does this look promising?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/7/2009 8:40:15 PM
Author: Geminian

Thank you guys. I have looked at more stones and this has my attention at the moment. From Blue Nile:

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-d-color-vvs1-clarity_LD01050082?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

Carat weight: 1.63
Cut: Ideal
Color: D
Clarity: VVS1

Does this look promising?

Yes it does look promising!

 

[stone-cold11]

Ditto.

 

[Geminian]

Thank you very much. I have also located another one which is of exactly the same carat weight but of FL clarity. While I can still (stretching to limits) afford it and am willing to buy it for my girlfriend, I wonder if it's stupid (paying a > USD10,000 premium) to get this instead of the VVS1 one mentioned above. The latter does appear to be a bargain..

http://hk.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-d-color-fl-clarity_LD01125677?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

(the one mentioned above) http://hk.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-d-color-vvs1-clarity_LD01050082?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/11/2009 4:42:05 AM
Author: Geminian
Thank you very much. I have also located another one which is of exactly the same carat weight but of FL clarity. While I can still (stretching to limits) afford it and am willing to buy it for my girlfriend, I wonder if it's stupid (paying a > USD10,000 premium) to get this instead of the VVS1 one mentioned above. The latter does appear to be a bargain..

http://hk.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-d-color-fl-clarity_LD01125677?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

(the one mentioned above) http://hk.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-d-color-vvs1-clarity_LD01050082?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

The D Fl has potential also. It depends on you, if you want to spend the extra to have the D Fl diamond, then thats fine. A point to ponder, sometimes a diamond can chip or damage - this is rare but can happen, then the clarity grade can be less as a result. Personally the VVS diamond to me is extremely high quality, but if you prefer the highest grades you can get then thats up to you - I would never spend the extra on Flawless clarity but different buyers have different priorities.

With either the Flawless or VVS1 clarity grades you will not see any inclusions.

 

[Moh 10]

Geminian, you wrote, "I wonder if it's stupid (paying a > USD10,000 premium) to get this instead of the VVS1 one mentioned above."

Nobody can answer that question.
Many people feel it is stupid to pay for clarity higher than an eye-clean SI.

Yet others value higher-clarity diamonds for what they represent to those people, higher purity.
A REAL diamond is perceived as a symbol of love - more so than a stone that is not not a real diamond.

Similarly a diamond with higher clarity is seen by some as a more desirable symbol of the love two people share.
Nobody can say that is stupid.
It is personal.

I believe I read somewhere that a flawless diamond drops to internally-flawless the moment the diamond is set because even the most careful setting process results in tiny tiny abrasions on the diamond's surface.
Can a pro confirm this?

If this is true I think the only "use" for a flawless diamond (if you want to keep it flawless) is locking it up, unmounted, in a safe deposit box.

Last, you obviously cherish the holy grail of color and clarity.
I'd add cut to your list.
With the influence of the Internet appreciation for top cut is gaining traction.
In the decades to come a D IF that is not optimally cut will be more widely understood as less desirable than it is today.

 

[Geminian]

Thanks Lorelei & Moh 10, especially for the information that an FL turns into IF the moment it is set.

I have checked the cutting of these two diamonds (without the benefit of images).

The VVS1 one scores 1.3 on HCA and is within the bracket of AGS 0.

The FL one scores 1.0 on HCA but, somewhat bizarre, is NOT within the bracket of AGS 0.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/11/2009 6:45:22 AM
Author: Geminian
Thanks Lorelei & Moh 10, especially for the information that an FL turns into IF the moment it is set.

I have checked the cutting of these two diamonds (without the benefit of images).

The VVS1 one scores 1.3 on HCA and is within the bracket of AGS 0.

The FL one scores 1.0 on HCA but, somewhat bizarre, is NOT within the bracket of AGS 0.

That happens sometimes, also it depends on whether AGS would grade the whole diamond as Ideal in all respects as to whether the diamond would get AGS0 cut grade. The aim with the HCA is to score below 2 then evaluate from there, a lower score isn't better than a higher one, the HCA is used for rejection not selection.

I think it depends on budget and clarity preferences here, both are well cut.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/5/2009 12:26:15 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi Geminian,


Having worked with this kind of combo from GIA 34/41.2 I will share with you some insights.


Firstly ... most all of the good folks here are basing a judgment off of the HCA (a free online tool here at PS) which penalizes diamonds with pavilion angles over 41.0 degrees. This will generate a bias against the diamond which in many instances is justified but then may not be justified.


There are 2 things that can potentially save this diamond from taking the justified hit on the HCA.


1. Since GIA rounds their pavilion angles, if this diamonds actual pavilion angle is 41.1 as opposed to 41.2 or 41.3 ... 41.1 is not the equivalent to jumping off of a cliff if that 41.1 angle is coupled with ...

2. Optical Symmetry is Superior.


We have had here in our lab diamonds with these proportions on the GIA Report and the diamond is just fine if it is a tightly cut stone with 41.1, and superior optical symmetry. I have a couple of diamonds here with actual 41.1 pavilion angles with superior Optical Symmetry and I purchased them and would encourage them as there is absolutely nothing wrong with them optically and are as beautiful as any other H&A we hand select.


On the other hand I've had 34.5/41.0 combos with wonky Optical Symmetry ... GIA Ex's that got AGS 3 in light performance!


This could fall either way but without the data its impossible to tell and diamonds with superior optical symmetry constitute the minority of diamonds on the market (as rare as the D IF combo).


Regards,

would depend on the exact pavilion angle and the lgf% as well as optical symmetry...
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/68/1/Do-the-pavilion-mains-drive-light-return-in-the-modern-round-brilliant.aspx
But with a gia rounded 75% lgf% there isn't much chance.... with a gia rounded 80% lgf% then maybe it would have a chance.