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Did you get a flu shot this year?

Ellen

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msop, your posting of the categories, which is apparently being phased out and incorporated with a system more ambiguous according to some brief research I did, doesn't change a thing. The Fact remains that the CDC talks out of both sides of their mouth. This is not the first time they've been found contradicting themselves. And the Fact remains that they are using pregnant women as giunea pigs because they have no idea what the flu shot will do. That's why there is a registry. And the Fact remains that they clearly state on the vac insert that comes with each vaccine that either they have only done studies on animals, and admit that animal reactions may not indicate what would happen with humans, or they don't even do animal studies at all, such as Fluzone High-Dose. It states, "8.1 Pregnancy Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Fluzone High-Dose. It is also not known whether Fluzone High-Dose can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Fluzone High-Dose should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.
https://www.vaccineshoppe.com/image.cfm?pi=fluHD&image_type=product_pdf

I have come across other vaccines, not flu, who have done no animal testing either. We are the animals. And again, it clearly states this vaccine should only be given if clearly needed.

msop, I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions, but I have had quite enough of your passive-aggressive, condescending attitude. So I will not be engaging with you any more. From here out I am simply posting information for the people reading this thread that aren't literally living and dying for vaccines. I'm not going to debate this info with anyone, however if someone has a genuine question I will be glad to try and answer it.
 

Ellen

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A lot of anti vaxxers are also pro- false information, and spread BS. I'm not saying you do, but various anti vax groups have been banned or fined for false advertising and straight up lying about effects. That's sketchy AF.
.
That's a shame, and I have come across false or stretched truths myself. They don't need to do that, there is enough damning evidence all on its own.
 

Gussie

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I don't think @msop04 has been condescending. She is trying to show scientific facts without falling back on emotion. The medical field isn't out to get anyone. They are there to help the most people while limiting risk to others. Of course it's not perfect and it never will be.
 

YadaYadaYada

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@ceg, I hope I'm not overstepping but it was mentioned in this thread that you have a child who can't receive vaccines. I can't imagine being in that position as a parent and having to constantly worry about them getting sick. Hopefully whatever I have shared didn't come across as a blatant disregard for kids like yours, that's not my intent.
 

Snowdrop13

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Unfortunately there are currently more pregnant women dying from flu than there are from vaccine side effects. Over here (UK) pregnant ladies are actively encouraged to be vaccinated and this has been the practice for many years.

It’s all about risks vs benefits, as with most things in medicine.
 

Ellen

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Stephanie, I was just listening to a medical doctor speaking against vaccines and he asked why vaccines weren't falling under the Geneva Convention (which we signed). He asks, "Why are we not protected under the Geneva Convention?" It states, "No human being should undergo a medical intervention without their consent." So I did a quick search and this is the first link that came up. Don't know anything about this site, but they state, "This right, which is not being advertised by the vaccine industry, or by the Government, must be actually, distinctively, and definitively claimed by each person, in order for it to be acknowledged or go into effect."

https://everydayconcerned.net/2015/...cine-exemptions-by-right-to-informed-consent/

Just thought you might like to look into it.
 

Gussie

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@ceg, I hope I'm not overstepping but it was mentioned in this thread that you have a child who can't receive vaccines. I can't imagine being in that position as a parent and having to constantly worry about them getting sick. Hopefully whatever I have shared didn't come across as a blatant disregard for kids like yours, that's not my intent.

Thanks! You have not been insensitive and I hope I haven't either. I recognize that every parent does what they think is best for their children with the information they have. My son is not compressed anymore and was updated on vaccinations after leukemia treatment ended. He is cured and a healthy, normal (sometimes surly!) teen.

All medical decisions are benefit versus risk. His type of cancer was the cancer with the best possible outcome (97% cure rate for his genetic code). Unfortunately the treatment almost killed him. He had a severe gastric hemorrhage that resulted in a a hemoglobin of 4 and went into hypovolemic shock. He had an emergency surgery for an intestinal resection while having absolute neutrophils at zero, meaning any infection from surgery would surely be tragic as antibiotics do not work when the immune system is totally compromised. He spent 2 weeks in the ICU under constant observation for any sign of infection. Thankfully he was ok. My point in telling this is that decisions are always risk versus benefit. The treatment cured him of the cancer but for him it was a huge risk. Would I make the same decisions again? Absolutely! My father's brother died of leukemia in the 60's. Back then there was only a 10-20% cure rate. From that to a 90-97% cure rate today is phenomenal. I am ever grateful for medical science.
 

YadaYadaYada

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@ceg, I am so glad that in the end, despite all the complications, he is now cured, he is lucky to have you as a parent. You have my utmost respect, I can't imagine watching my child go through what you described.

At the end of the day I hope that I am doing the best for my son, it just doesn't seem normal for a child to react so strongly to not only vaccines but almost all other medication.
 

YadaYadaYada

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@Ellen, I have heard of the Geneva convention, I question the word "should" there. That to me means that no human should, but in the event of a major outbreak that threatens the public health (Ebola for example) they would still be able to force vaccinate.

Maybe I'm wrong and I will certainly look into that link you shared.
 

msop04

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msop, your posting of the categories, which is apparently being phased out and incorporated with a system more ambiguous according to some brief research I did, doesn't change a thing. The Fact remains that the CDC talks out of both sides of their mouth. This is not the first time they've been found contradicting themselves. And the Fact remains that they are using pregnant women as giunea pigs because they have no idea what the flu shot will do. That's why there is a registry. And the Fact remains that they clearly state on the vac insert that comes with each vaccine that either they have only done studies on animals, and admit that animal reactions may not indicate what would happen with humans, or they don't even do animal studies at all, such as Fluzone High-Dose. It states, "8.1 Pregnancy Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Fluzone High-Dose. It is also not known whether Fluzone High-Dose can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Fluzone High-Dose should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.
https://www.vaccineshoppe.com/image.cfm?pi=fluHD&image_type=product_pdf

I have come across other vaccines, not flu, who have done no animal testing either. We are the animals. And again, it clearly states this vaccine should only be given if clearly needed.

msop, I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions, but I have had quite enough of your passive-aggressive, condescending attitude. So I will not be engaging with you any more. From here out I am simply posting information for the people reading this thread that aren't literally living and dying for vaccines. I'm not going to debate this info with anyone, however if someone has a genuine question I will be glad to try and answer it.

WHOOOOAAAAA.... you need to slow your roll here, @Ellen. I answered your questions to the best of my professional abilitiy, per your request. There's no attitude on my end. Peace.
 

Ellen

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@Ellen, I have heard of the Geneva convention, I question the word "should" there. That to me means that no human should, but in the event of a major outbreak that threatens the public health (Ebola for example) they would still be able to force vaccinate.

Maybe I'm wrong and I will certainly look into that link you shared.
That may well end up happening, but if this can buy you precious time I think it would be worth it.
 

Ellen

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Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Fluzone High-Dose. It is also not known whether Fluzone High-Dose can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Fluzone High-Dose should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

Something else I want to point out about this vaccine statement, in italics. It's telling you it may affect your fertility, they have no idea. So in essence it's like saying, after "weighing risk vs. benefits", it's better to possibly affect your ability to have kids so you don't have to possibly get a cold. That you might get anyway because the flu shot is close to worthless. And, you may not get sick at all. But whatever you do, get that shot! Let's see. Cold vs. no kids, no brainer! Or, like a toss of the dice, it may affect your unborn child. Let's see. Cold vs. damaged child. Well, I think the choice is clear, don't you?

People, nobody needs any kind of degree to understand this, it's simple common sense. That's it. Think about it.

And, to back up my statement on the shot being close to worthless, here's an article worth reading. Please read all the links, there is a ton of info. But in particular, the very prestigious Cochrane Review looked over three different studies on the flu shot and came up with, not much new, doesn't do much. Providing Chochrane link for those that don't want to read the whole page.
https://community.cochrane.org/news/why-have-three-long-running-cochrane-reviews-influenza-vaccines-been-stabilised


And there is also a link to a "recipe" by the CDC to get people to get their shots. Because I guess its outstanding health benefits aren't enough to automatically make people line up to get it. Coercion anyone?
http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/PublicHealth/MicrobialThreats/Nowak.pdf


Here is the main link, which I highly recommend.
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/how-the-cdc-uses-fear-to-increase-demand-for-flu-vaccines/


 

msop04

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Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Fluzone High-Dose. It is also not known whether Fluzone High-Dose can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Fluzone High-Dose should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

Well, that would make sense... as Fluzone High-Dose is given ONLY to the geriatric population, 65 years and older. It isn't meant to be given to pregnant women... or any women of child-bearing age.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_fluzone.htm

Who can receive Fluzone High-Dose?
In the United States, Fluzone High-Dose is licensed only for persons aged 65 years and older. As with all flu vaccines, Fluzone High-Dose is not recommended for persons with a history of severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or to components other than eggs. Information about vaccine components is located in package inserts from each manufacturer.








 
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lyra

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I will probably get the high dose next year. I qualify because of my immuno suppression. Get the flu and maybe die, no thanks, I'd rather take a chance, although personally I don't believe there is anything to be afraid of. I can say that of course, because no one in my family has ever had an issue with any vaccine. YMMV of course.
 

telephone89

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Lol of course the anti vaxxer posts more incorrect info. So this particular shot can cause harm to pregnant women. Except it is never given to pregnant women. Okay, cool.

That's like saying steak is bad for you if its crusted in cocaine. Well sure. Except its not soo...
 

msop04

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Lol of course the anti vaxxer posts more incorrect info. So this particular shot can cause harm to pregnant women. Except it is never given to pregnant women. Okay, cool.

That's like saying steak is bad for you if its crusted in cocaine. Well sure. Except its not soo...

I'd love my steak crusted with cocaine... can you imagine the housework I'd be able to get done after eating??!! ;-)LOL #cocainecrustedsteak
 

telephone89

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I'd love my steak crusted with cocaine... can you imagine the housework I'd be able to get done after eating??!! ;-)LOL #cocainecrustedsteak
Probably causes cancer though. Or autism...

But for reals. Thank you for your well thought out contributions to this thread. I really appreciating hearing an educated persons POV on this subject. Hence why I don't get into the science lol. I defer to much smarter individuals than myself in these situations - just like hiring a lawyer or insurance broker. If this thread keeps going the way it currently is, I'm just going to start posting memes :lol:
 

msop04

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Probably causes cancer though. Or autism...

But for reals. Thank you for your well thought out contributions to this thread. I really appreciating hearing an educated persons POV on this subject. Hence why I don't get into the science lol. I defer to much smarter individuals than myself in these situations - just like hiring a lawyer or insurance broker. If this thread keeps going the way it currently is, I'm just going to start posting memes :lol:

Thanks for the kind words. I think it may be time for memes. I'll start.

 

ksinger

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msop04

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Ellen

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For the record, it never occurred to me that a vaccine that would never be given to pregnant women would carry a warning about what might happen to her or her unborn child if she's given this vaccine. So go ahead and criticize me for not knowing something so obvious....

It does not however, change the fact that only animal studies were done in the other vacs, and those results may not be indicative of what could happen in a human. That fact, remains.
 
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msop04

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@ksinger... this quote, to me, pretty much sums it up:

I fear we are witnessing the “death of expertise”: a Google-fueled, Wikipedia-based, blog-sodden collapse of any division between professionals and laymen, students and teachers, knowers and wonderers – in other words, between those of any achievement in an area and those with none at all. By this, I do not mean the death of actual expertise, the knowledge of specific things that sets some people apart from others in various areas. There will always be doctors, lawyers, engineers, and other specialists in various fields. Rather, what I fear has died is any acknowledgement of expertise as anything that should alter our thoughts or change the way we live.

ETA: and the Dunning-Kruger Effect is 100% SPOT. ON.

Thanks again for posting those articles.
 

ksinger

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Gosh, I can read the titles and tell you it's sad, yet true. I will read them though - thanks!

Oh, and one more in the same vein...

Intellectual humility: the importance of knowing you might be wrong
Why it’s so hard to see our own ignorance, and what to do about it.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-hea...ual-humility-explained-psychology-replication

excerpt:

"Intellectual humility is simply “the recognition that the things you believe in might in fact be wrong,” as Mark Leary, a social and personality psychologist at Duke University, tells me.

But don’t confuse it with overall humility or bashfulness. It’s not about being a pushover; it’s not about lacking confidence, or self-esteem. The intellectually humble don’t cave every time their thoughts are challenged.

Instead, it’s a method of thinking. It’s about entertaining the possibility that you may be wrong and being open to learning from the experience of others. Intellectual humility is about being actively curious about your blind spots.
.
.
.
There’s a personal cost to an intellectually humble outlook. For me, at least, it’s anxiety.

When I open myself up to the vastness of my own ignorance, I can’t help but feel a sudden suffocating feeling. I have just one small mind, a tiny, leaky boat upon which to go exploring knowledge in a vast and knotty sea of which I carry no clear map.

Why is it that some people never seem to wrestle with those waters? That they stand on the shore, squint their eyes, and transform that sea into a puddle in their minds and then get awarded for their false certainty?"
 

msop04

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Oh, and one more in the same vein...

Intellectual humility: the importance of knowing you might be wrong
Why it’s so hard to see our own ignorance, and what to do about it.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-hea...ual-humility-explained-psychology-replication

excerpt:

"Intellectual humility is simply “the recognition that the things you believe in might in fact be wrong,” as Mark Leary, a social and personality psychologist at Duke University, tells me.

But don’t confuse it with overall humility or bashfulness. It’s not about being a pushover; it’s not about lacking confidence, or self-esteem. The intellectually humble don’t cave every time their thoughts are challenged.

Instead, it’s a method of thinking. It’s about entertaining the possibility that you may be wrong and being open to learning from the experience of others. Intellectual humility is about being actively curious about your blind spots.
.
.
.
There’s a personal cost to an intellectually humble outlook. For me, at least, it’s anxiety.

When I open myself up to the vastness of my own ignorance, I can’t help but feel a sudden suffocating feeling. I have just one small mind, a tiny, leaky boat upon which to go exploring knowledge in a vast and knotty sea of which I carry no clear map.

Why is it that some people never seem to wrestle with those waters? That they stand on the shore, squint their eyes, and transform that sea into a puddle in their minds and then get awarded for their false certainty?"

Very good points, indeed. I feel that some people want so badly to place blame that they are blinded by their own emotions, completely unable to accept or trust anything that fails to strengthen/feed their own narratives.

I seriously hate to be wrong, and like you, I get anxiety when I just don't know enough to enter into the discussion - for fear of being "wrong" - so I just don't. Although this is my field of study and I feel pretty confident in discussing it, I will be the first to admit if I don't know the answer or if it's so complex that I feel it "above my pay grade", per se.
 

whitewave

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Well, that would make sense... as Fluzone High-Dose is given ONLY to the geriatric population, 65 years and older. It isn't meant to be given to pregnant women... or any women of child-bearing age.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_fluzone.htm

Who can receive Fluzone High-Dose?
In the United States, Fluzone High-Dose is licensed only for persons aged 65 years and older. As with all flu vaccines, Fluzone High-Dose is not recommended for persons with a history of severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or to components other than eggs. Information about vaccine components is located in package inserts from each manufacturer.

Let’s Not let facts get in the way of things now...

Misinformation on the internet is a crying shame. People read one thing and think they know what it means.

Thank you for pointing out that 65 year olds don’t get pregnant
 

YadaYadaYada

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@Ellen, please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way because I get where you are coming from but at this point what are you hoping to accomplish from this thread?

Is it to gain a better understanding from someone with medical background so you might change your mind?

Is it to try to convince someone with a medical background that there is more to it than what they studied?

Or is it to show other people reading this thread that there is another side to the story than what the medical community presents?

Because here is the truth, I don't see any change at the end of the day here. Speaking for myself, nobody is going to tell me what I witnessed with my son didn't happen. On the flip side unless someone experiences something for themselves there is always doubt...because they are taught vaccine reactions are rare but when you are the one it happens to, rare doesn't matter anymore.

Of course there is discussion for the sake of too and that's always good if we can agree to disagree, but discussions about vaccines rarely transpire without some degree of frustration on both sides.
 

whitewave

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The new movement is for pro science people to not even discuss vaccine safety with “pro death” people.

Meaning the anti vaccine people don’t have the science behind them, so there is no discussion to be had. No sense in wasting time or breath.

*not directed at anyone. Just stating what I have seen lately.
 

Gussie

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Oh, and one more in the same vein...

Intellectual humility: the importance of knowing you might be wrong
Why it’s so hard to see our own ignorance, and what to do about it.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-hea...ual-humility-explained-psychology-replication

excerpt:

"Intellectual humility is simply “the recognition that the things you believe in might in fact be wrong,” as Mark Leary, a social and personality psychologist at Duke University, tells me.

But don’t confuse it with overall humility or bashfulness. It’s not about being a pushover; it’s not about lacking confidence, or self-esteem. The intellectually humble don’t cave every time their thoughts are challenged.

Instead, it’s a method of thinking. It’s about entertaining the possibility that you may be wrong and being open to learning from the experience of others. Intellectual humility is about being actively curious about your blind spots.
.
.
.
There’s a personal cost to an intellectually humble outlook. For me, at least, it’s anxiety.

When I open myself up to the vastness of my own ignorance, I can’t help but feel a sudden suffocating feeling. I have just one small mind, a tiny, leaky boat upon which to go exploring knowledge in a vast and knotty sea of which I carry no clear map.

Why is it that some people never seem to wrestle with those waters? That they stand on the shore, squint their eyes, and transform that sea into a puddle in their minds and then get awarded for their false certainty?"

When I know I don't know is when I am most open to learning, hence I am at my smartest. Intellectual humility as in all other forms of humility is very empowering.
 

YadaYadaYada

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Pro death...really?

Well here is a scenario, what if a parent gives a child a vaccine and that child dies as a result of a vaccine reaction. They aren't pro death right?

Except that is the reality for parents of children who have had reactions to vaccines, maybe they weren't severe enough to cause death the first time but who is to say the next one won't be the shot responsible? That is what happened to a young girl in NJ who died after her second MMR shot. Vaccines CAN lead to severe reactions that can cause death, because I refuse to further vaccinate my son does not mean I am pro death and want him to die!
This is too much.
 
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