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Onemax

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
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39
Hi everyone,

Thank you for all your help thus far! I am still very new to diamonds and would like to know your oppinion on these diamonds.


White Flash
. Report: EGL
. Shape: Round Ideal Cut
. Carat: 1.70
. Clarity: SI2
. Colour: D
. Depth %: 59.5
. Table %: 54
. Girdle: TN
. Measurements: 7.79-7.85X4.65
. Polish: Excellent
. Symmetry: Excellent
. Culet: Very Small
. Fluorescence: None
. 4 Star Rating
http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-1489211.htm

Abazias
. Report: EGL
. Shape: Round Brilliant
. Cut Grade: Ideal
. Measurements: 7.79-7.85X4.65
. Carat: 1.70
. Clarity: SI2
. Colour: D
. Depth: 59.5%
. Table: 54%
. Crown Height: 15%
. Pavilion Depth: 42%
. Girdle Thickness: Thin
. Polish: Excellent
. Symmetry: Excellent
. Culet: Very Small
. Fluorescence: None
. Graining: Very Slight
Comments: EXELENT IDEAL CUT - The quality of the cut of this diamond achieves Excellence in symmetry and porportions, thus obtaining the optimal dispersion of light and brilliance
http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=52672747&src=builder
I put the Abazias'' diamond through the HCA and it scored 1.7
Light Return: Good
Fire: Excellent
Scintillation: Excellent
Spread or diameter for weight: Excellent
Total Visual Performance: 1.7 - Excellent
within TIC range.

I looked at the EGL certificate for the Abazia''s diamond but don''t really know how to evaluate what I am looking at as far as inclusions are concerned.

I would love hear the community''s thoughts especially since this is an EGL SI2.

Thanks so much!
 
I could be wrong but they might be the exact same diamond

I would be wary of buying EGL diamonds (especially Israel EGL) as the colour and clarity could be way off and would only do so with a trusted appraiser.
 
1st off, I think they are the same virtual stone. If you look at all the dimensions given, they are the same.

EGL you might want to be careful with that. A SI2 can easily be a I1. You will have to ask the vendor to tell you if it is eye-clean.

On the HCA, it is within the pendant/ear-ring stone range, it is probably going to be a dark stone under close observation so not a good stone for a ring.
 
So how do I know if it''s an Israel EGL?


What HCA range should I be looking at to narrow my seach!

Thnaks so much!
 
Date: 11/3/2008 11:30:37 AM
Author: Deelight
I could be wrong but they might be the exact same diamond

I would be wary of buying EGL diamonds (especially Israel EGL) as the colour and clarity could be way off and would only do so with a trusted appraiser.
Click to expand...
Ditto. This diamond would have to be called in to WF or Abazias most likely for evaluation. It isn't a badly cut stone but you could do better. What are you looking for, as much size and a colourless diamond on a budget?
 
For a ring, try to get the cross to within the overlap of AGS/GIA ideal ranges, that would be the best. I think if the dimensions are still within AGS it will still be fine. Try and stay near the upper diagonal side of the red color band. Read the warnings on how to use the HCA.
 
Date: 11/3/2008 11:39:46 AM
Author: Onemax
So how do I know if it''s an Israel EGL?


What HCA range should I be looking at to narrow my seach!

Thnaks so much!
Click to expand...
It says it is on the Abazias link. With the HCA you aren''t using it to select diamonds, it is more of a case that diamonds which score 2 or below are considered equal ( a lower score isn''t better than a higher one) then you evaluate using Idealscope images and other methods. If you have Idealscope images and the other info provided then the HCA''s use is limited. If a diamond scores over 2, it has top symmetry and you have the other cut info provided, then that may also be worth consideration.

If you want to make it easier, then look for some AGS0 cut grade and GIA Excellent stones.
 
I was looking for an eye clean SI2 D-H stone in the range of 1.6-1.8ct. It looks like I won''t be able to fit those qualities into my budget of $7000 though. I guess I''ll keep looking. I wonder if the state of the world economy will ease diamond prices a bit.

Thanks for your info!
 
Date: 11/3/2008 11:45:15 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
For a ring, try to get the cross to within the overlap of AGS/GIA ideal ranges, that would be the best. I think if the dimensions are still within AGS it will still be fine. Try and stay near the upper diagonal side of the red color band. Read the warnings on how to use the HCA.
Click to expand...
And don't use those warnings to choose stones by categorizing them as ' young person's stone' or ' older person's' stone otherwise you could miss out on some great diamonds. Basically you need to carefully evaluate the more shallow stones as you noted earlier SC, but otherwise onemax these warnings are guidelines and not meant to be used as a rule.
 
Sounds good.

I did call Whiteflash this morning and am waiting for a reply on whether it is "eye-clean" but I guess the concensus is that this stone is dark and not suited for a ring.

I''ll keep looking and go from there.

Thanks so much! This site is great!
 
Date: 11/3/2008 11:46:34 AM
Author: Onemax
I was looking for an eye clean SI2 D-H stone in the range of 1.6-1.8ct. It looks like I won''t be able to fit those qualities into my budget of $7000 though. I guess I''ll keep looking. I wonder if the state of the world economy will ease diamond prices a bit.

Thanks for your info!
Click to expand...
You are welcome!

Would you consider lowering the colour and carat? You could still have a white diamond if the cut was good and a well cut stone will still look impressive!
 
Date: 11/3/2008 11:53:03 AM
Author: Onemax
Sounds good.

I did call Whiteflash this morning and am waiting for a reply on whether it is 'eye-clean' but I guess the concensus is that this stone is dark and not suited for a ring.

I'll keep looking and go from there.

Thanks so much! This site is great!
Click to expand...
Not necessarily....This is where it can get tricky if the warnings on the HCA are taken literally and it is confusing when you are learning. This is a shallower stone yes and there is a possibility it might look a little dark due to obstruction issues - possibly. However we really cannot predict with any certainty that a diamond WILL do this and not be suited for a ring. If you are interested in this one, ask if WF can call it in for you, they are the experts and will be able to tell you whether in their professional opinion the diamond -

Is suited for a ring stone
Has obstruction issues
And is eyeclean.

That is the best course of action if you like the sound of this one and the price is right! And it is important to keep an open mind when you are on a budget. I would make any sale final on an independant appraisal, as EGL Israel are said to be soft on grading, that way you will know if the stone is a good deal.
 
Date: 11/3/2008 11:49:15 AM
Author: Lorelei
Date: 11/3/2008 11:45:15 AM

Author: Stone-cold11

For a ring, try to get the cross to within the overlap of AGS/GIA ideal ranges, that would be the best. I think if the dimensions are still within AGS it will still be fine. Try and stay near the upper diagonal side of the red color band. Read the warnings on how to use the HCA.
Click to expand...

And don''t use those warnings to choose stones by categorizing them as '' young person''s stone'' or '' older person''s'' stone otherwise you could miss out on some great diamonds. Basically you need to carefully evaluate the more shallow stones as you noted earlier SC, but otherwise onemax these warnings are guidelines and not meant to be used as a rule.
Click to expand...

Who give you the Mummy power to decide what I can say or not in this thread?
 
I just may have to lower the colour and carat weight in order to meet my budget.

Also should I be concerned with the dimentions of the stone. I notice that even though some stones are of the same carat weight they can have different dimentions (ie. 7.77 vs 7.95)?
 
Date: 11/3/2008 11:57:38 AM
Author: Stone-cold11









Date: 11/3/2008 11:49:15 AM
Author: Lorelei









Date: 11/3/2008 11:45:15 AM

Author: Stone-cold11

For a ring, try to get the cross to within the overlap of AGS/GIA ideal ranges, that would be the best. I think if the dimensions are still within AGS it will still be fine. Try and stay near the upper diagonal side of the red color band. Read the warnings on how to use the HCA.
Click to expand...

And don't use those warnings to choose stones by categorizing them as ' young person's stone' or ' older person's' stone otherwise you could miss out on some great diamonds. Basically you need to carefully evaluate the more shallow stones as you noted earlier SC, but otherwise onemax these warnings are guidelines and not meant to be used as a rule.
Click to expand...

Who give you the Mummy power to decide what I can say or not in this thread?
Click to expand...
SC, as I have tried to explain before to you ( along with others), that we are trying to make sure new posters get the best and most accurate help we can offer, we all have a responsibility to do this. You haven't been here very long to see how things work or have worked, but we all have to be open to advice or correction given on our posting at times, that is how you learn and get better - and also to be aware of our limitations as consumers. I have had my share of corrections in the past and I didn't like it - until I realized why the experts were correcting my advice when I needed it - then I listened to what they had to say and came back posting more effectively. In order to help new posters then it can be important to at least consider any advice given so we can be an excellent resource for the new consumer when buying a diamond, and so we can continue to improve the quality of the help we give. I am proud of Pricescope like I said before and the tiny part I play in it, and it is important to have the continued growth, prosperity and success of this website in mind, as well as helping those who ask for advice in RT to the best of our ability. I said something similar to you last week and regrettably I don't think you understood where I was coming from, but I really hope get what I am saying now - and why I am saying it.
 
Date: 11/3/2008 12:06:02 PM
Author: Onemax
I just may have to lower the colour and carat weight in order to meet my budget.

Also should I be concerned with the dimentions of the stone. I notice that even though some stones are of the same carat weight they can have different dimentions (ie. 7.77 vs 7.95)?
Click to expand...
The diameter is a factor to consider certainly, carat weight doesn''t always relate to face up size. Basically a well cut stone should have a good face up spread for its weight and make the most of its size due to edge to edge sparkle that a poorly cut stone won''t have. Shallower diamonds may have a larger spread for the weight, deep stones vice versa.
 
Thanks, that''s helpful!
 
Physical fact is physical fact. That angle combination will cause a loss in light performance, it is not even the marginal difference between old and young people ring stone. That is why that combination is always graded less than ideal. I will warn people what they are likely to find with that geometry, what and how they want to proceed is up to them. I do not like your way of doing things, babying up people, suggesting that certain information should not be given to them because it will cause confusions. How is that different from trying to complete a sale? Just that you are not making any commission. I will inform someone of my opinions and how and what they decided to do with that information and opinion is up to them.
 
Date: 11/3/2008 4:29:58 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Physical fact is physical fact. That angle combination will cause a loss in light performance, it is not even the marginal difference between old and young people ring stone. That is why that combination is always graded less than ideal. I will warn people what they are likely to find with that geometry, what and how they want to proceed is up to them. I do not like your way of doing things, babying up people, suggesting that certain information should not be given to them because it will cause confusions. How is that different from trying to complete a sale? Just that you are not making any commission. I will inform someone of my opinions and how and what they decided to do with that information and opinion is up to them.
Click to expand...
And if I think your opinions are likely to be misleading to a new poster then I will continue to point it out.
2.gif
That is only fair to them.
 
Date: 11/4/2008 2:51:41 AM
Author: Lorelei

And if I think your opinions are likely to be misleading to a new poster then I will continue to point it out.
2.gif
That is only fair to them.
Click to expand...

Then to be fair, when Garry makes the same remark about a stone's predicted performance using his HCA predictions, as in this post, I will expect you to correct him too.
 
Date: 11/4/2008 4:53:01 AM
Author: Stone-cold11






Date: 11/4/2008 2:51:41 AM
Author: Lorelei

And if I think your opinions are likely to be misleading to a new poster then I will continue to point it out.
2.gif
That is only fair to them.
Click to expand...

Then to be fair, when Garry makes the same remark about a stone's predicted performance using his HCA predictions, as in this post, I will expect you to correct him too.
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier in an above post, there is a possibility that the diamond in question might have obstruction issues and would need careful evaluation. However the poster is on a budget and was interested to find out more concerning that diamond, therefore my advice was for an expert vendor to call the stone in to see if it would be a decent choice for a ring - if it was not then they could advise accordingly with a degree of certainty and experience, rather than we who haven't even seen the diamond in question to state that the diamond was definitely not suited for a ring.

Anyway I think we should get back to helping this poster as I don't want to derail their thread further.
 
Date: 11/4/2008 5:12:34 AM
Author: Lorelei

Like I said earlier in an above post, there is a possibility that the diamond in question might have obstruction issues and would need careful evaluation. However the poster is on a budget and was interested to find out more concerning that diamond, therefore my advice was for an expert vendor to call the stone in to see if it would be a decent choice for a ring - if it was not then they could advise accordingly with a degree of certainty and experience, rather than we who haven''t even seen the diamond in question to state that the diamond was definitely not suited for a ring.

Anyway I think we should get back to helping this poster as I don''t want to derail their thread further.
Click to expand...

You can say you disagree with me but you can''t say I cannot say something, it is my opinion. Also you are not being fair by not making the same statement with regards to the similiar comment make by Garry.
There is nothing about possibility, it will happen, it is physics. All the other facets, LGF and stars, are of a lower angle combination than the crown and pav angles, so if these exhibit the characteristics, the other combinations will only perfrom worse off.
So you would not want to bring this fact up to his attention so that he can take note of it when he gets the stone and see it for himself? I do not see the logic behind that from the point of helping the consumer. He can still call it in with a trusted vendor and get their opinions on if it is a good ring stone. But in the end, he should decide for himself if the stone works for him, and for me, to do that he needs to know what the stone is predicted to do and look at that, not whitewash away into just trusting the vendors. In this case, that means to look at the ring stone, when he gets it, close up and see if the shadow effect really bothers him. If he does not know that is possible, will he check it immediately or wait until somedays later, after the return period and notice it?

Anyway, that''s my opinion of this, I will not argue anymore or respond to any of your comments on this matter and I agree that we should get back to helping the original poster.
 
SC, I don''t see where Lorelei told you once "you can''t say something"..she simply added to your comments, and rightfully so.
I must say I am starting to find this bickering of yours slightly embarassing, it has happened in at least 2 new posters threads that I am aware of, and it gives an unpleasant view of PS to our new mbrs.
As Lorelei mentioned, we have All been corrected at some stage by those who have been around longer and have more knowledge than us - I don''t see why you feel you should be exempt from this, you are not being singled out as it seems you may think.
The last time this issue came up, a number of us tried to explain as politely as possible the real issues behind the corrections. I fear you have simply ignored us all, which doesn''t bode well for anyone.
Personally, this sort of arguing would have been a turn off for me when I was a new poster, especially the accusations of "mummying", "babying"etc..
Please try to see things from the OP''s POV.


To Onemax, I apologize for the interruption, and wish you good luck in your search
1.gif
 
Date: 11/4/2008 6:20:02 AM
Author: Stone-cold11









Date: 11/4/2008 5:12:34 AM
Author: Lorelei

Like I said earlier in an above post, there is a possibility that the diamond in question might have obstruction issues and would need careful evaluation. However the poster is on a budget and was interested to find out more concerning that diamond, therefore my advice was for an expert vendor to call the stone in to see if it would be a decent choice for a ring - if it was not then they could advise accordingly with a degree of certainty and experience, rather than we who haven't even seen the diamond in question to state that the diamond was definitely not suited for a ring.

Anyway I think we should get back to helping this poster as I don't want to derail their thread further.
Click to expand...

You can say you disagree with me but you can't say I cannot say something, it is my opinion. Also you are not being fair by not making the same statement with regards to the similiar comment make by Garry.
There is nothing about possibility, it will happen, it is physics. All the other facets, LGF and stars, are of a lower angle combination than the crown and pav angles, so if these exhibit the characteristics, the other combinations will only perfrom worse off.
So you would not want to bring this fact up to his attention so that he can take note of it when he gets the stone and see it for himself? I do not see the logic behind that from the point of helping the consumer. He can still call it in with a trusted vendor and get their opinions on if it is a good ring stone. But in the end, he should decide for himself if the stone works for him, and for me, to do that he needs to know what the stone is predicted to do and look at that, not whitewash away into just trusting the vendors. In this case, that means to look at the ring stone, when he gets it, close up and see if the shadow effect really bothers him. If he does not know that is possible, will he check it immediately or wait until somedays later, after the return period and notice it?

Anyway, that's my opinion of this, I will not argue anymore or respond to any of your comments on this matter and I agree that we should get back to helping the original poster.
Click to expand...
You rightly advised that this stone could be a shallower diamond which might have obstruction issues and might not be suitable for a ring stone. However even the creator of the HCA will tell you that the usage warnings are meant to be used as guidelines and not an absolute rule. The poster then said that she had already contacted WF about this diamond and then thought due to the advice given here that this diamond may not be suitable for a ring stone - which is not necessarily the case. You also posted the HCA usage warnings, and due to the fact that last week you were advising grouping diamonds into 'older person's stone' and 'younger person's stone', I wanted to make sure that this poster was using the HCA in the right way and not limiting themselves by doing this, especially in this middle range.

Even if the diamond in question did show some darkness on close observation when worn in a ring, it may not be something that might even be noticeable to the wearer, who also wants a big stone on a budget. Trade offs have to be made when working with limited funds, that is why I suggested that the poster continued with hearing what Whiteflash had to say about the diamond when they received it as to its suitability for their purposes of setting it in a ring. It may well not be at all suitable, however I am sure Whiteflash will advise accordingly. As the poster is on a budget as mentioned before, her priorities might be a big pretty stone - and even if the diamond did show any darkness in some lighting conditions, it may not be a problem or an issue. It may not be what some would choose for a ring stone, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and diamonds are bought for many reasons, what might be an ideal diamond for one person another might never choose. But it is important to keep an open mind so we can help all posters, not just those with large budgets who want a superideal cut diamond.

And before I finish, I would ask you to stop using accusatory and insulting terms such as me ' mummying', ' babying up' and ' whitewashing' when giving posters responsible advice on trusting their professionals.
38.gif


ETA - thank you AJ for understanding what I am trying to say.
 
Just a thought here... I''m noticing the WF stone says it''s an Expert Selection stone or it has the logo for it anyway. Wouldn''t this designation alleviate a bunch of the concerns because of the scrutiny WF classifies its stones with? I was under the impression that ES was a bit better than a regular listing and ACA was a bit better than ES, is this normally a safe assumption?

I wonder if the HCA results would be any different if we were able to input angles instead of percentages for the crown and pavilion fields.
 
Date: 11/4/2008 7:22:25 AM
Author: girlie-girl
Just a thought here... I'm noticing the WF stone says it's an Expert Selection stone or it has the logo for it anyway. Wouldn't this designation alleviate a bunch of the concerns because of the scrutiny WF classifies its stones with? I was under the impression that ES was a bit better than a regular listing and ACA was a bit better than ES, is this normally a safe assumption?

I wonder if the HCA results would be any different if we were able to input angles instead of percentages for the crown and pavilion fields.
Click to expand...
Thats a good observation GG, I think however it is a virtual stone...But it would be very useful if it was as then more info would be available, but I don't know if it is an ES....

ACA are Whiteflash's top cut brand hearts and arrows as you probably know. Expert Selection are primarily value for the money stones, some rounds may be ' near miss' ACA as the standards for the brand are very strict. Others may be well made stones ( well cut and performing diamonds) but they might not be as close to ACA standards. But depending on what you are looking for, ES can be great choices. It is always best to evaluate each diamond on its own merits regardless of the cut or brand designation however. As to the HCA angles are more accurate, WF might be able to run a Sarin on the diamond to get detailed measurements of the stone if it warrants it.
 
Date: 11/4/2008 6:43:52 AM
Author: arjunajane
SC, I don't see where Lorelei told you once 'you can't say something'..she simply added to your comments, and rightfully so.

I must say I am starting to find this bickering of yours slightly embarassing, it has happened in at least 2 new posters threads that I am aware of, and it gives an unpleasant view of PS to our new mbrs.

As Lorelei mentioned, we have All been corrected at some stage by those who have been around longer and have more knowledge than us - I don't see why you feel you should be exempt from this, you are not being singled out as it seems you may think.

The last time this issue came up, a number of us tried to explain as politely as possible the real issues behind the corrections. I fear you have simply ignored us all, which doesn't bode well for anyone.

Personally, this sort of arguing would have been a turn off for me when I was a new poster, especially the accusations of 'mummying', 'babying'etc..

Please try to see things from the OP's POV.

To Onemax, I apologize for the interruption, and wish you good luck in your search
1.gif
Click to expand...

I interpret this as Lorelei is trying to shut me up
'And don't use those warnings to choose stones by categorizing them as ' young person's stone' or ' older person's' stone otherwise you could miss out on some great diamonds. Basically you need to carefully evaluate the more shallow stones as you noted earlier SC, but otherwise onemax these warnings are guidelines and not meant to be used as a rule.' Just as she interpret my observation in another post wrongly today

Yes, I simply ignore you guys because how you go about using the HCA is wrong, you have no idea what the bands are for, what the warnings are actually about. The choice is still with the OP on what he intends to do with the stone, I have never said do not go with that stone, ever. You brought this up and expect me to not defend myself when I find your opinions is wrong or contradictory to what and how I do things and expect me not to defend myself?
 
Date: 11/4/2008 7:49:06 AM
Author: Stone-cold11






Date: 11/4/2008 6:43:52 AM
Author: arjunajane
SC, I don't see where Lorelei told you once 'you can't say something'..she simply added to your comments, and rightfully so.

I must say I am starting to find this bickering of yours slightly embarassing, it has happened in at least 2 new posters threads that I am aware of, and it gives an unpleasant view of PS to our new mbrs.

As Lorelei mentioned, we have All been corrected at some stage by those who have been around longer and have more knowledge than us - I don't see why you feel you should be exempt from this, you are not being singled out as it seems you may think.

The last time this issue came up, a number of us tried to explain as politely as possible the real issues behind the corrections. I fear you have simply ignored us all, which doesn't bode well for anyone.

Personally, this sort of arguing would have been a turn off for me when I was a new poster, especially the accusations of 'mummying', 'babying'etc..

Please try to see things from the OP's POV.


To Onemax, I apologize for the interruption, and wish you good luck in your search
1.gif
Click to expand...

Yes, I simply ignore you guys because how you go about using the HCA is wrong.
Click to expand...
Ignore all you wish, but you appear to be the one who obviously isn't open to advice on how to properly use the HCA and interpret its limitations and usage warnings.
1.gif
Continue as you want, but you can be sure that if you post misleading information, it will be corrected.

I am only sorry that you are not open to what is meant to be helpful advice. I have been trying to help you but obviously you don't see it that way, it is a shame as you have learned a lot in the short time you have been here and given some good posts and advice at times.

Onemax, please let us know how you get on concerning this diamond.
 
Date: 11/4/2008 7:28:15 AM
Author: Lorelei

Thats a good observation GG, I think however it is a virtual stone...But it would be very useful if it was as then more info would be available, but I don''t know if it is an ES....

ACA are Whiteflash''s top cut brand hearts and arrows as you probably know. Expert Selection are primarily value for the money stones, some rounds may be '' near miss'' ACA as the standards for the brand are very strict. Others may be well made stones ( well cut and performing diamonds) but they might not be as close to ACA standards. But depending on what you are looking for, ES can be great choices. It is always best to evaluate each diamond on its own merits regardless of the cut or brand designation however. As to the HCA angles are more accurate, WF might be able to run a Sarin on the diamond to get detailed measurements of the stone if it warrants it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification Lorelei, it''s pretty much how I understood it to be as well. LOL I wonder then if the ES logo is just a mistake on the listing? I was surprised to see it honestly since it''s a virtual stone and all... I would be interested to see the angles. I guess we''ll all find out shortly if this stone warrants the extra attention or not.
1.gif


SC I''m not sure what''s going on with you but your posts are getting pretty nasty toward Lorelei. Might I suggest using the ''Report Concern'' feature if you have an issue with her correcting you rather than making the negative comments you are. I''m not trying to jump on any bandwagons, but your recent posts are leaving a real bad taste in my mouth and there is no need for the snide remarks.
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