Diamond Symmetry Example

[eander315]

I have been lurking here to educate myself about diamonds for the past few weeks. I am currently primarily concerned with cut. I''ve been looking at many different online images from the best vendors to try to determine if my personal rating for a given stone correlates well with the AGS rating and other ratings given by the vendor, HCA, etc.

The following stone looks to me like it has a couple of symmetry problems, but it is rated AGS 0 for cut and has ideal symmetry. The problems I am referring to can be seen in the regular loupe image as well as the hearts and arrows images and the Idealscope and ASET images. The base of most of the arrow shafts seem to be different. The best example is the arrows at 3 o''clock and 9 o''clock. The ASET image shows some green areas near the edge in the bottom right quarter. The hearts at 1:30 and 3 o''clock seem to be misshapen.

Are these images the result of a bad angle? How many of these images are typically taken without moving the stone? The Idealscope and loupe images seem to be exactly the same, but the rest appear to be at different orientations based on the angles of the arrows. I also assume that in order to take the hearts photo the diamond must be flipped over. Basically I am trying to determine if the apparent symmetry problems are the result of a photography issue or if the stone actually has physical symmetry flaws.

http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php?pid=63&lang=eng&sid%5B%5D=257&src=loupe

Also, thank you to everyone on PS for all of their friendly and helpful information! I was uncomfortable with my level of knowledge and didn''t really know where to start a few weeks ago. I''m in a lot better shape now thanks to everyone here and at GOG

 

[whatmeworry]

Let me put a disclaimer out front: I have bought from infinity diamonds in the past.

Big picture: This is a gorgeous diamond.

Small picture: I guess if someone (not just infinity) is going to market their diamonds
as super ideal or H&A why shouldn''t you the consumer analyze the hearts, arrows, symmetry to the infinite detail?
I suppose you probably will see symmetry issues (for you) with this diamond if you look close enough.
I don''t think new pictures are going to change these issues for you. The cleft in those hearts aren''t going away with new pictures. That doesn''t make this diamond any worse.
You should step back a little because you are analyzing to the nth degree and
you shouldn''t lose sight of the big picture. Good luck with your search.

 

[kcoursolle]

The diamond is beautiful and has excellent stymmetry. Honestly, it''s going to be stunning in person and nothing to worry about!!!

 

[strmrdr]

photography

call Wink and discuss the stone.

 

[eander315]

I didn''t mean to say that this diamond had anything wrong with it. In fact, it''s almost the opposite. Given that it''s an Infinity diamond and that it''s rated AGS 0 by someone who knows way more about this than I do, I''m assuming that I am analyzing the photos incorrectly or that the issues I indicated are actually just an artifact created during the photography process and do not actually exist. I''m just curious if that is the case, or if appraisers or the expert members of PS would take those issues into account or if they are considered minor and irrelevant. I was just using this stone as an example. In retrospect, I should have attached those images so as not to potentially offend anyone. That was definitely not the goal

 

[strmrdr]

This is the best picture of the stone showing the symmetry face up.

 

[whatmeworry]

Forget the fact that it''s Infinity or AGS0 or whatever or even the photography. Those symmetry issues are non-issues to me. Not even close.

 

[zerj]

Actually I have had the same question. I don't think the eander is trying to say there is anything wrong with the diamond or even asking for an opinion of its quality. Just curious about the test setup.

When I look at the strmrdr's idealscope image I see the base of several arrows all shifted to the top left. My engineer brain wants to push down slightly on the lower right edge (about 4:30ish) of the diamond and see if that gets the reflections to line up a little better and the bases become more symetric.

So I am curious if this is a setup error or a symmetry problem, Or perhaps it is a symmetry problem in that one side of the girdle is ever so slightly thicker so its not facing up at a perfectly normal. Without knowing how the image is taken I have no way of knowing.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/16/2008 3:26:12 PM
Author: eander315
I didn''t mean to say that this diamond had anything wrong with it. In fact, it''s almost the opposite. Given that it''s an Infinity diamond and that it''s rated AGS 0 by someone who knows way more about this than I do, I''m assuming that I am analyzing the photos incorrectly or that the issues I indicated are actually just an artifact created during the photography process and do not actually exist. I''m just curious if that is the case, or if appraisers or the expert members of PS would take those issues into account or if they are considered minor and irrelevant. I was just using this stone as an example. In retrospect, I should have attached those images so as not to potentially offend anyone. That was definitely not the goal

And we are definitely NOT offended, thank you for courtesy in making sure that we knew you did not intend to.

Up until a very short time ago all of these photos were taken by a third party who obviously did not always take the time to make sure all of the pictures were taken with the diamonds perfectly level. even 1/2 a degree of tilt can affect the appearance of the photo. To actually have the diamonds perfectly level is probably one of the hardest factors of taking a good reflector type image of a diamond. For this reason Infinity has now hired someone who will be doing all of their photos to make sure that what you see is indeed what you are getting.

I have not been able to read all of the thread yet, but I see that some have already jumped in to share with you about the quality of our diamonds, and I want to thank Storm, kcoursolle and whatmeworry as well as others who might be further down in the thread for their kind words. It is one of the nice things about representing a quality product, and the kind words are, as always, greatly appreciated!

Wink

P.S. As Storm indicated, I am always happy to talk with you at any time.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/16/2008 3:38:49 PM
Author: zerj
Actually I have had the same question. I don''t think the eander is trying to say there is anything wrong with the diamond or even asking for an opinion of its quality. Just curious about the test setup.

When I look at the strmrdr''s idealscope image I see the base of several arrows all shifted to the top left. My engineer brain wants to push down slightly on the lower right edge (about 4:30ish) of the diamond and see if that gets the reflections to line up a little better and the bases become more symetric.

So I am curious if this is a setup error or a symmetry problem, Or perhaps it is a symmetry problem in that one side of the girdle is ever so slightly thicker so its not facing up at a perfectly normal. Without knowing how the image is taken I have no way of knowing.

mostly you are seeing the effect of less than 2 degrees tilt in the way the diamond is sitting.
I couldn''t nail it down exackly but its between 1 and 2 degrees.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

May I thank everyone answering in this thread for their kind words? And add to that that you have been actually too kind.

Honestly, when it comes down to our photography, we stink. I simply have to admit that.

BUT

In building our company, our first focus was the stones, and we were lucky to find a photographing service in Antwerp, so that we did not need to worry how to get the pics done that we wanted. The flipside was that these guys are working for a fixed fee, and we have little to no weight on getting them to put more time in each pic and to obtain a higher quality-level.

This situation changed last week. We now have our own photographer-designer (brand-manager) in-house, and we are currently working on set-ups which will soon produce more consistent and higher-quality pics. We hope that the bad smell of our photographs will soon be over.

At the same time, the good point that our pics were taken outside of our control will no longer be. You will have to trust us that we did not fiddle with our upcoming pictures. Then again, some of you are smart enough to detect that anyway.

Live long,

 

[eander315]

Date: 5/16/2008 3:38:49 PM
Author: zerj
Actually I have had the same question. I don't think the eander is trying to say there is anything wrong with the diamond or even asking for an opinion of its quality. Just curious about the test setup.


When I look at the strmrdr's idealscope image I see the base of several arrows all shifted to the top left. My engineer brain wants to push down slightly on the lower right edge (about 4:30ish) of the diamond and see if that gets the reflections to line up a little better and the bases become more symetric.


So I am curious if this is a setup error or a symmetry problem, Or perhaps it is a symmetry problem in that one side of the girdle is ever so slightly thicker so its not facing up at a perfectly normal. Without knowing how the image is taken I have no way of knowing.

That's exactly correct, I had a very strong feeling that this was caused by a photography error, and everyone's posts here affirm that. Previously I had assumed that the diamond was always level when the photos were taken, and anything that shows up in the photos are physically part of the diamond. Although in hindsight it's fairly obvious, I didn't know how difficult it can be to get a good picture of a diamond. I will take that into consideration in the future. Thanks everyone for their responses, and again I apologize for the tactless way I presented my question.

 

[strmrdr]

It is no problem asking questions about images, if you want some help with them just start a thread titled something like help with image evaluation.
I look for threads like that to help out with as does Garry and others.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/16/2008 4:58:38 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
May I thank everyone answering in this thread for their kind words? And add to that that you have been actually too kind.

Honestly, when it comes down to our photography, we stink. I simply have to admit that.

BUT

In building our company, our first focus was the stones, and we were lucky to find a photographing service in Antwerp, so that we did not need to worry how to get the pics done that we wanted. The flipside was that these guys are working for a fixed fee, and we have little to no weight on getting them to put more time in each pic and to obtain a higher quality-level.

This situation changed last week. We now have our own photographer-designer (brand-manager) in-house, and we are currently working on set-ups which will soon produce more consistent and higher-quality pics. We hope that the bad smell of our photographs will soon be over.

At the same time, the good point that our pics were taken outside of our control will no longer be. You will have to trust us that we did not fiddle with our upcoming pictures. Then again, some of you are smart enough to detect that anyway.

Live long,

Why not simply scan the stone Paul and use DiamCalc and Gem Adviser. Solves all the problems?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

We do offer a scan, plus Gemadviser, on each stone also.

But we think that the public also has a right to the actual pictures, however difficult they are to capture.

Live long,

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/17/2008 7:05:45 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
We do offer a scan, plus Gemadviser, on each stone also.

But we think that the public also has a right to the actual pictures, however difficult they are to capture.

Live long,

What I would do is get a helium scanner, provide an actual picture and a heart image and use the DC images for IS and ASET.
I agree with you on actual images but with the helium generated files not all the images have to be actual.
Then you can provide a helium report to show off your workmanship in numbers!
I do believe the helium is available to you unlike in the US.
Garry can clarify that.

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 5/17/2008 7:05:45 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
We do offer a scan, plus Gemadviser, on each stone also.


But we think that the public also has a right to the actual pictures, however difficult they are to capture.


Live long,

I would much rather see a picture of the actual diamond than a picture of a computer representation.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/17/2008 2:01:20 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 5/17/2008 7:05:45 AM

Author: Paul-Antwerp

We do offer a scan, plus Gemadviser, on each stone also.



But we think that the public also has a right to the actual pictures, however difficult they are to capture.



Live long,

I would much rather see a picture of the actual diamond than a picture of a computer representation.

Me too, even though I have seen time and again how accurate the scanned then Gemadvisered images are.

Paul is keenly interested in having NO POSSIBLE question as to the quality and look of his gems, which is why he originally thought it would be better to hire a third party to take the unbiased photos. Unfortunately they had no problem taking bad photos and posting them up though which created a negative image of his gems rather than a true image of them.

I like it that Paul insists on the genuine picture and still has all of the other information available. Not only does Paul''s closet not have any skeletons, I do not think he even has a closet when it comes to the information he provides.

What is ironic, is that many of his vendors do not know what to make of all of that information. He is having to have them taught about cutting to understand how to present the stones to their retail clients. Many of you here could do the teaching quite well!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. I think it interesting (sad) that so few jewelers know much about the most important factor in a diamond''s beauty, that of cut.

I will admit that I thought I knew a lot about cutting, I was one of the few jewelers that I knew who really cared.

Then I came here and had to study like heck to catch up with latest information that some of the consumers here already knew. I can laugh about it a little now, but I remember shortly after I started selling on the internet, and long before I came to Pricescope, telling a client that it was absurd for him to ask me about crown and pavilion angles and that he needed to learn how to look at a diamond. In this case it really was, as the stone in question was a pear shape and absolutely no work had been done at that time on what angles it would take to make a stone beautiful in a pear shape, you really did need to know how to use your eyes.

Still, I would have said the same thing about a round at that time. Sigh.

Now I have a hard time understanding why any professional would not know these things, but the truth is that this community here at Pricescope is a VERY tiny microcosm of the gem business. Paul is one of many professionals striving to bring the industry, kicking and screaming many of them, into the current century in the knowledge that they need to properly understand and evaluate cut.

I hope all of you in the Pricescope community understand how fortunate you are to have people like Paul, Garry, Storm, Todd, Jonathan, The Artist formerly known as John Quixote and others to bring you this information and to patiently explain it again and again to all who ask.

Wink

 

[ayala_jessica]

Date: 5/17/2008 4:15:55 PM
Author: Wink
P.S. I think it interesting (sad) that so few jewelers know much about the most important factor in a diamond''s beauty, that of cut.

I will admit that I thought I knew a lot about cutting, I was one of the few jewelers that I knew who really cared.

Then I came here and had to study like heck to catch up with latest information that some of the consumers here already knew. I can laugh about it a little now, but I remember shortly after I started selling on the internet, and long before I came to Pricescope, telling a client that it was absurd for him to ask me about crown and pavilion angles and that he needed to learn how to look at a diamond. In this case it really was, as the stone in question was a pear shape and absolutely no work had been done at that time on what angles it would take to make a stone beautiful in a pear shape, you really did need to know how to use your eyes.

Still, I would have said the same thing about a round at that time. Sigh.

Now I have a hard time understanding why any professional would not know these things, but the truth is that this community here at Pricescope is a VERY tiny microcosm of the gem business. Paul is one of many professionals striving to bring the industry, kicking and screaming many of them, into the current century in the knowledge that they need to properly understand and evaluate cut.

I hope all of you in the Pricescope community understand how fortunate you are to have people like Paul, Garry, Storm, Todd, Jonathan, The Artist formerly known as John Quixote and others to bring you this information and to patiently explain it again and again to all who ask.

Wink

Oh yes we are indeed the lucky ones to have virtually easy and unlimited access to people who are so generous with their knowledge and time ! When I enter one of those high end (and mostly high bill) jewelry stores and ask about cut, eventually I (really a non expert) end up explaining cut to professional people who know even less than me !! That puzzles me each and every time...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/17/2008 2:01:20 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 5/17/2008 7:05:45 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
We do offer a scan, plus Gemadviser, on each stone also.


But we think that the public also has a right to the actual pictures, however difficult they are to capture.


Live long,

I would much rather see a picture of the actual diamond than a picture of a computer representation.

Even if the pictures could be tampered with - or of a different diamond (as has and does happen) and the computer model was always gauanteed to be most accurate and easily able to obtain confirmation as to its authenticity?

(BTW I am not aware of any Pricescope vendor who abuses your trust with doctored or fake photo''s)

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Wink it is such a pity they broke or lost the mold after they made you.

Drena and I are looking forward to sharing your company again in a couple of weeks.

 

[haider]

It''s not a proper hearts and arrows diamond. Try these guys http://www.niceice.com/ Remember H&A is measure of good symmetry not proportions.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/18/2008 12:56:42 PM
Author: haider
It''s not a proper hearts and arrows diamond. Try these guys http://www.niceice.com/ Remember H&A is measure of good symmetry not proportions.

yes it is proper h&a.
Todd at niceice is one of Paul''s dealers so a diamond from him would be close to this one.
Paul runs a pretty tight ship and his diamonds are pretty consistent one to the next.

 

[strmrdr]

When Wink gets back from vacation lets see if he can take another heart image with the camera properly centered over the viewer.
That will put the question to rest.

 

[whatmeworry]

Even if the pictures could be tampered with - or of a different diamond (as has and does happen) and the computer model was always gauanteed to be most accurate and easily able to obtain confirmation as to its authenticity?


(BTW I am not aware of any Pricescope vendor who abuses your trust with doctored or fake photo''s)

Assuming no tampering with images. An actual IS photo has a big advantage because many times it will show the inclusions of the diamond that you might not see in in a regular photograph. A scan wouldn''t pick up those inclusions.

Yes a Diamcalc would be useful because you would then have a standard lighting environment to judge diamonds across different vendors who use different lighting and photography setups.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 5/18/2008 6:51:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Wink it is such a pity they broke or lost the mold after they made you.

Drena and I are looking forward to sharing your company again in a couple of weeks.

Hey, what about my mold? And aren''t you looking forward to seeing me again?

And why isn''t there a smiley for someone crying and feeling sorry for himself? This one maybe?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/18/2008 3:13:51 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 5/18/2008 6:51:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Wink it is such a pity they broke or lost the mold after they made you.

Drena and I are looking forward to sharing your company again in a couple of weeks.

Hey, what about my mold? And aren''t you looking forward to seeing me again?

And why isn''t there a smiley for someone crying and feeling sorry for himself? This one maybe?

So sorry if I offened you Paul

But Wink won cudos for his humility Paul, which given how much he really does know about diamond cut, is all the more humble.

I will be on the look out and hand you an appropriate award when the time comes

Meanwhile you know that we are loooking forward to catching up with you and many others in the Pricescope pro'' gang at Vegas

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/18/2008 3:13:51 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 5/18/2008 6:51:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Wink it is such a pity they broke or lost the mold after they made you.

Drena and I are looking forward to sharing your company again in a couple of weeks.

Hey, what about my mold? And aren't you looking forward to seeing me again?

And why isn't there a smiley for someone crying and feeling sorry for himself? This one maybe?

Here's one.

And a thread with just about any icon you might need in the future. They're all through the thread, not just the first page. It's quite a collaboration.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/emoticons-in-one-place-together.74763/

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/18/2008 6:51:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Wink it is such a pity they broke or lost the mold after they made you.


Drena and I are looking forward to sharing your company again in a couple of weeks.

Thank you. And I yours. I am grateful that my flight is only about an hour of flight time and an hour of waiting. I do not envy you your trip from Oz.

Wink