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Diamond Novice: Some questions...

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pfb

pfb

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
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36
I'm the kind of person that gets interested in something then obsessively tries to learn as much as possible about the subject... Currently it's diamonds, driven largely by the fact that I need to buy an engagement stone!

I've learned *so* much in the tutorials, forums, and vendor/supporter websites, but still have some questions.

I'll also preface that the my vision (moderate astigmatism and presbyopia, yes getting old sucks) makes it difficult for me to make a lot of subjective judgements by sight.

Also note that all references to AGS Ideal 0 mean the *new* AGS Ideal 0 standards, not the old.

Questions:
----------

1. Hearts & Arrows. Seems like this is a subjective area, and without any AGS/GIA rating or standards, its seems like it's up to the vendor to make the determination. Overall, would every AGS Ideal 0 with excellent polish/symmetry show some level of hearts & arrows pattern? Do the other cut angles have any impact on the hearts/arrows crispness? What percentage of AGS 0's would you estimate to either not show an H&A at all or show a pretty mangled one?

2. If you had a diamond that was:
- AGS graded
- Ideal 0 cut
- G or better color
- VS2 or better clarity
- Threw a HCA score of between 1.0 and 2.0
What quality risks might be associated with that stone? What would you look for if you had the diamond in your hands?

3. I'm just begining to understand cheated girdles, and certainly don't want this thread to focus on these issues, but is it safe to assume that an AGS 0 does not have a adverse painting or digging?

4. Subjective question. If you had a few nearly identical excellent stones AGS0,G+,VS2+,1 carat+, HCA 1-2, identical price, would you pick the one that had:
- One grade better clarity?
- One grade better color?
- An extra 8 points?
( I guess I know the answer will be "the one that looks best to your eye", which is frustrating for me cause I can't see 'em that well!)
 
Date: 8/25/2006 10:08:56 PM
Author:pfb
I'm the kind of person that gets interested in something then obsessively tries to learn as much as possible about the subject... Currently it's diamonds, driven largely by the fact that I need to buy an engagement stone!

I've learned *so* much in the tutorials, forums, and vendor/supporter websites, but still have some questions.

I'll also preface that the my vision (moderate astigmatism and presbyopia, yes getting old sucks) makes it difficult for me to make a lot of subjective judgements by sight.

Questions:
----------

1. Hearts & Arrows. Seems like this is a subjective area, and without any AGS/GIA rating or standards, its seems like it's up to the vendor to make the determination. Overall, would every AGS Ideal 0 with excellent polish/symmetry show some level of hearts & arrows pattern?
no

Do the other cut angles have any impact on the hearts/arrows crispness?
yes LGF% being a major one

What percentage of AGS 0's would you estimate to either not show an H&A at all or show a pretty mangled one?

unknown

2. If you had a diamond that was:
- AGS graded
- Ideal 0 cut
- G or better color
- VS2 or better clarity
- Threw a HCA score of between 1.0 and 2.0
What quality risks might be associated with that stone? What would you look for if you had the diamond in your hands?

it would likly be a pretty stone, Id ask for a heart image because I like optical symmetry.
Id look for arrows in the proper lighting.

3. I'm just begining to understand cheated girdles, and certainly don't want this thread to focus on these issues, but is it safe to assume that an AGS 0 does not have a adverse painting or digging?

yes and no... the dont allow extreme painting or more than very mild digging but they do allow painting that affects the face up appearance of the diamond and the scint.


4. Subjective question. If you had a few nearly identical excellent stones AGS0,G+,VS2+,1 carat+, HCA 1-2, identical price, would you pick the one that had:
- One grade better clarity?
- One grade better color?
- An extra 8 points?
( I guess I know the answer will be 'the one that looks best to your eye', which is frustrating for me cause I can't see 'em that well!)

id go down to an I or maybe j color with the best cut I could get and eyeclean si1 and up in size
Click to expand...
 
One thing I have learned in the years since I was a newbie is that "lower colored" and SI stones can be GORGEOUS and they offer a great value in diamond-buying. My first stone was a 1.53 AGS-0 H&A G/VS2 RB. I bought a G/VS because I was nervous and that was a "comfort zone" for me.

I upgraded last year to a beautiful 2.36 AGS-0 H&A J/SI2 that is totally eye-clean (even under close scrutinization) and VERY white.

My priorities are these... killer cut, white and eye-clean. After that, it''s ALL about SIZE, baby!!!
31.gif


AGS0HandA2.36JSI2Beauty.jpg
 
I definitly understand the opportunity for great value by getting an "eyeclean" SI1/2 and a "white" J or K, but in trying to understand more fully some of the other topics I mentioned, I moved the baseline up to G/VS2 so there are no questions about eyeclean or whiteness... Focusing more on the permutations of an AGS 0 cut.

Trying to expand my knowledge a little!
 
To number 4 I''d answer that I''d probably take the 8 points if the cut was equal. G is a great color (and H is not bad either), and I also prefer VS1 or VS2. So if you were at G VS2, I''d likely take the 8 points but I''d consider taking a VS1.
 
I'd love to hear more discussion on why an AGS0 with ideal symmetry wouldn't show some H&A...

I can understand why a steep/shallow/poorly symmetrical diamond wouldn't show H&A, but not why an Ideal might not.

What is LGF%?
 
Date: 8/25/2006 10:08:56 PM
Author:pfb
2. If you had a diamond that was:
- AGS graded
- Ideal 0 cut
- G or better color
- VS2 or better clarity
- Threw a HCA score of between 1.0 and 2.0
What quality risks might be associated with that stone? What would you look for if you had the diamond in your hands?


4. Subjective question. If you had a few nearly identical excellent stones AGS0,G+,VS2+,1 carat+, HCA 1-2, identical price, would you pick the one that had:
- One grade better clarity?
- One grade better color?
- An extra 8 points?
( I guess I know the answer will be 'the one that looks best to your eye', which is frustrating for me cause I can't see 'em that well!)
Click to expand...
OK, I'll tackle #2 and #4.

#2 I don't think I know for sure what you mean by "quality risks"... do you mean something like a feather that may break the surface causing a potential durability problem? Or do you mean something like a little excessive depth? Or a thick girdle? Or crown and pav angles that may be on the shallow side or nearing a steep/deep combo? All that would, of course, be obvious information on the cert. So if I had the diamond in my hand, what would I do? I would compare it with other diamonds. I would take the time to observe it in all various lighting conditions, look at it under a loupe, with an H&A viewer, an IS... etc. If I loved what I saw, and the price was right... I would buy it.

#4 In a one carat+ stone, I am not sure that 8 points would even be noticeable to the eye. I am all about SIZE, but also all about buying only what you can SEE. SO... even though I love lower colored stones, assuming all were eye-clean, from your scenario above, I guess I would buy the higher colored stone. The 8 points (or the clarity grade) just don't seem worth it to me, I guess.
 
Date: 8/25/2006 11:36:22 PM
Author: JulieN
Must read this: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hearts-arrows-cut-branded-non-branded-standards.21569/
Click to expand...

Excellent link. Addresses my "ideal/ex/ex not always = H&A" question exactly.

Follow up question:

Are "ideal-scope", "ASET scope", and "Hearts & Arrows" viewer all fundamentaly the same? Tools for easily observing the H&A pattern?

And do expert diamond viewers need these tools, or can they judge the optical symmetry merely with a loupe?
 
Date: 8/25/2006 11:32:46 PM
Author: pfb
I''d love to hear more discussion on why an AGS0 with ideal symmetry wouldn''t show some H&A...

I can understand why a steep/shallow/poorly symmetrical diamond wouldn''t show H&A, but not why an Ideal might not.

What is LGF%?
Click to expand...
AGS doesnt grade h&a a non-h&a with the right amount of contrast can get the AGS0 score

lgf
http://goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Cut/PartsAndFacets/
 
not really.

HA viewer is for determining symmetry.
Ideal Scope is for determining light return and contrast, but you can see symmetry in it.
ASET is for determining light return as well as the where the light is drawn from, and contrast, but you can see symmetry in it.

You can't see hearts in IS and ASET.
 
Date: 8/25/2006 11:57:39 PM
Author: strmrdr
lgf

http://goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Cut/PartsAndFacets/
Click to expand...

So does it refer to "length girdle facet %" as shown on a helium report or "lower girdle facet"?

Can you clarify what it is refering to? Length of lower girdle facet as a percent of diamond diameter?

Sorry to pepper you with questions, but that's how I learn. Didn't see the answer in the link.

[Sorry, posted before I saw your second link. That looks like an in-depth explanation, I'll take a look!. Thanks!]
 
Date: 8/26/2006 12:06:45 AM
Author: JulieN
not really.


HA viewer is for determining symmetry.

Ideal Scope is for determining light return and contrast, but you can see symmetry in it.

ASET is for determining light return as well as the where the light is drawn from, and contrast, but you can see symmetry in it.


You can''t see hearts in IS and ASET.
Click to expand...

So if you see great optical symmetry (arrows) with IS or ASET, can you assume the hearts would be equally crisp? Or to ask another way, can you have great arrows without great hearts? I presume not.
 
Date: 8/26/2006 12:18:11 AM
Author: pfb

Date: 8/26/2006 12:06:45 AM
Author: JulieN
not really.


HA viewer is for determining symmetry.

Ideal Scope is for determining light return and contrast, but you can see symmetry in it.

ASET is for determining light return as well as the where the light is drawn from, and contrast, but you can see symmetry in it.


You can''t see hearts in IS and ASET.
Click to expand...

So if you see great optical symmetry (arrows) with IS or ASET, can you assume the hearts would be equally crisp? Or to ask another way, can you have great arrows without great hearts? I presume not.
Click to expand...
arrows show symmetry of only a very few facets. mostly just 2 per arrow.
each heart requires that 6 facets be properly aligned.
 
Pfb,

I too am a person that likes to find out everything about a subject, especially if I am laying down some serious cash. I understand your knowledge quest. I did the same thing when I was looking for a stone. I found a stone that was good by the numbers and looked good too.

It sounds like you know you want G/VS2 or better in an ASG0 (Ideal) cut. Those are good numbers. I found in my research that ideal stones with similar numbers can have a different appearance. Broadfire, pinfire, and brilliance can be effected by small amounts of angle variety and brillianterring (painting/digging). Due to the differences I found it helpful to show ideal stones that displayed different visual qualities to my girlfriend. Her input helped me pick the right stone.

Although "you" may not be able to "see" these differences, the person you are buying the stone for may have a preferece. I highly recommend using them for your eyes if you are happy with the numbers.

Enjoy the knowledge quest. There is a lot of info out there and you can over analyze diamonds if you only focus on the paper reports. There are (in my opinion) 2 parts: numbers and visual. The numbers give you a selection and the visual picks the winner. Just my 2 cents.
9.gif
 
Date: 8/26/2006 12:18:11 AM
Author: pfb


... Or to ask another way, can you have great arrows without great hearts? I presume not.
Click to expand...
You are correct. It is absolutely possible to have great arrows without great hearts. And as Brian Gavin has often been quoted as saying, "It''s all in the hearts."
 
If:

- AGS Ideal cut 0/ex/ex does not necessarily mean great *optical* symmetry;

- Partial optical symmetry can evaluated face up with an Ideal or ASET scope, but these look at arrows (and a couple of facets) only;

- The presence of nice arrows doesn't neccessarily mean nice hearts or predict excellent optical symmetry of the unseen facets;

- Full optical symmetry can be evaluated by additionally looking at the "hearts" with an H&A scope, from the rear of the diamond.

How would one go about fully judging optical symmetry on a mounted diamond? Or determining if a mounted stone is H&A? Sounds like it can't be done.
 
I think for a mounted stone you either have to "un-mount" it and use a H&A viewer or trust the vendor. If you are looking to pay the premium for a H&A, AGS0 stone, I would recommend buying it loose if you intend to see it first. If you buy it online then ask for pictures. I am sure there are plently of nice mounted stones out there. I feel that if the numbers, certification, etc. are important to you, then you should have the stone bought seperately to make sure it is the real deal.
 
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