diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen??

[Rockdiamond]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Hi Jean- that was a good thread linked to by Lorelei- Good to see other professionals share my experience on feathers.

Re trading: Kenny is correct. Most sellers will be interested in buying your diamond ( if it's a desirable stone), or allowing you to trade it in for another.
A few tips to keep in mind:
1) selling to a dealer means taking a much lower price than retail- and even lower than wholesale. To find out how much similar diamonds are selling for use the link on the font page to search for fancy shaped diamonds in a similar color clarity and size range.
Generally speaking cushions, ovals, marquises radiant and emerald cut trade at similar prices- so if you don;t find a lot of emerald cuts, check other fancy shapes.

2) an outright cash sale is going to net you less than if you trade to a dealer for one of their stones- sometimes lot less.

3) It's probably a good idea to shop this around.
Ask a few sellers locally,( if possible) what they'd offer on a trade, or to purchase. I assume your diamond has a GIA report- that will make it possible for online dealers to at least give you an idea- although most probably won't make any firm offers without seeing the stone in person

4) if you can sell it privately, you'll probably get the highest price- but there's risk and hassle going that route.

hope this helps!

 

[jeaniefish]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Kenny and Rockdiamond,
Thanks to both of your for your input. I've thought about selling my diamond on-line myself (ebay and a couple of other sites) but that is ,as you said, really risky. I'm going to give this some further thought. I may go back to my B&M jeweler. He has already told me that: (1) emerald cuts don't bring as much as others, since they aren't as popular and (2)marquise cuts are a shape that nobody wants these days (really?). If that's true, then the reverse should also be true,meaning that he might be able to find another EC GIA diamond ( mine is also GIA cert.)for me nearer the D range. If I do find something else that I'm seriously interested in, I will be back to share my find and ask for y'alls input again.
jean

 

[Todd Gray]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Maybe I missed a reference to it previously in the thread, but did anybody mention Neil Beaty's article "A Consumers Guide to Reselling Diamonds" found here:https://www.pricescope.com/journal/consumer’s_guide_reselling_diamonds because it is truly an excellent article.

I think that Kenny's concept of a "mind clean diamond" is excellent and don't believe it was a shot at anybody in particular... the concept is simple enough, buy a diamond with characteristics that appeals to your preferences and comfort level. If the inclusions within a particular diamond seem bothersome to a consumer, they should continue looking for a diamond which does not contain those inclusions... Hey, they make more

I certainly buy diamonds (for inventory) based upon my personal preferences! There are certain inclusions which appeal to me (crystals, pinpoints, small [read: minute} clouds [groups of pinpoint size diamond crystals]; needles [shaped diamond crystals]); and others which cause me to pause and very carefully consider the (potential) impact in terms of durability (minute feathers, naturals, indented naturals); and others which I generally avoid all together [because they make me itch] such as extensive feathers, stacks of small feathers in close proximity, feathers which appear to run from the top to bottom of the diamond [indicated on both sides of the plotting diagram in close proximity], twinning wisps, cavities, etc. and plenty of dealers / appraisers / manufacturers, etc. will tell you that "they're fine" and they may perfectly well be, but everybody has their preferences (and should buy accordingly).

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Neither Marquise, or Emerald Cut is as popular as round.
Princess and cushion are also more "in vogue" today as compared to emerald and marquise.

Having said that- here's one aspect to this that bothers me.
As I walk down 47th street to go to work every day, I get accosted by people asking me "ARE YOU BUYING- ARE YOU SELLING???"

We know why they're asking me if I'm buying- they want to sell what they have in the showcase.
The dirty little secret about why they ask if I'm selling: They don't want to buy at .50cents on the retail dollar.
They want to buy at .10cents on the retail dollar. If that.
What I find objectionable is the methods.
FACT- if you own a business that puts cash out to buy from consumers, you need to buy WELL below wholesale. Otherwise it would make no sense to put out the cash.
But instead of simply informing the poor people who need to sell their diamond the truth, they insult the item offered.
"Oh no one wants this type of diamond anymore" "it's a bad diamond" "it's got a feather" yadda yadda.

As Kenny mentioned, gold is a known quantity- and scrap gold has a set value. Which is still way less than consumers pay for a new piece of gold, but at least it's an established price.
With diamonds, there are a lot of slimeball buyers who try to take advantage of unknowing sellers.
Not to say your guy is a slimeball, just giving you more of the reasons that you may have a tough time selling your stone outright.
Still way better off trading.
But it's also still a problem.
If a seller owns the diamond you want to trade up to, you're in a good position.
But the person you're working with most likely does not won the diamond you want to buy.
So he'll have to go out and buy a new diamond to satisfy you.

So it's not likely that you're going to come out there....
If you find someone that has (owns) the diamond you want, then you're in better shape.
But make sure it doesn't have any nasty feathers- which are really cracks.
KIDDING!!!

 

[coati]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Stone- I believe you're reading it wrong.
GIA won;t issue a VS2 grade on a diamond with an imperfection that reaches the surface.
A crystal is something else entirely.

Quoted from the article. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_feather_inclusions_durability_risk

GIA grading and feathers

GIA clarity graders plot feathers that extend from a diamond’s surface into the stone as “feathers.” If a feather is included and does not reach the surface, it is plotted as an “included crystal.” While the plotted crystal inclusion may actually be a fissure within the stone, if it does not reach the surface, GIA does not plot it as a feather, but the grader will plot it in the shape of the feather.

Apparently you did read it correctly Stone- my apologies.
I believe the content of the article is incorrect.
Feathers can be wholly contained within a diamond- proving this point is the GIA report posted above.
GIA will not grade a diamond VS2 if an inclusion reaches the surface.

Yes, feathers can be wholly contained within a diamond, but GIA teaches that they should be plotted as included crystals if they reach the surface (meaning they are close to the surface) but do not break the surface. My instructor explained the reasoning behind this-that a feather most likely originated from an included crystal. Feathers that reach the surface, but that do not break the surface are to be plotted with the feather symbol. When a feather breaks the surface and creates an opening, it's plotted as a cavity. I'll reword the article to better clarify the difference between reaching the surface and breaking the surface. The feather shown in the plot below indicates that it is close to the surface on the pavilion side, thus it is plotted as a feather. Would it be simpler to plot feathers that do not reach the surface as...feathers? Yes. I understand the reasoning, but I do find it a bit convoluted.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Another approach to the issue is to just keep shopping.
Lots of diamonds don't have feathers.

You can think of it as a mind clean thing.
Some people just want a certain color and clarity and prefer a diamond without feathers.
Nothing wrong with that.

Keep in mind to consider the source when discussing this subject with vendors.
Even the most honest vendor wants to sell all the diamonds in their inventory so they may argue against my suggestion especially here on PS where every idea reaches lots of buyers.
Their job is to address your fears.

Still it is your right as a buyer to pay attention to your own comfort level with feathers as with every other diamond characteristic.
I'm not saying everyone should never buy any diamond with a feather.
I'm just saying after getting educated it is your right to make your own decision about feathers on a case by case basis, OR just avoid them entirely.

Todd- the part in red was what I objected to. An honest vendor won't try to minimize real defects. They'll alert the buyer to them. I'm sure you would do that.
I agree with you, and Kenny, to an extent- a lot of sellers will try to minimize true deficits in the products they sell.
But the type of feathers contained in a accurately graded ( GIA graded) VS2 diamond are simply not anything to be concerned about.
No one should buy any stone they don't want- but I strongly believe that by making sure accurate information is posted, it benefits all - buyer and honest sellers alike.
See, if feathers in a VS2 were truly a problem, then the seller in question was trying to pass off a bill of goods. But the statement "Feathers in a VS2 are nothing to worry about" is not false. If we can't tell the wheat from the chaff, accurate, informative information goes down the drain.
Look at immunizations for kids- and the fuss that's being made.
Not to compare measles vaccine with diamonds in scope- but the point is that false warnings can be harmful to accurate info. I believe readers want accurate info.

 

[Todd Gray]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Another approach to the issue is to just keep shopping.
Lots of diamonds don't have feathers.

You can think of it as a mind clean thing.
Some people just want a certain color and clarity and prefer a diamond without feathers.
Nothing wrong with that.

Keep in mind to consider the source when discussing this subject with vendors.
Even the most honest vendor wants to sell all the diamonds in their inventory so they may argue against my suggestion especially here on PS where every idea reaches lots of buyers.
Their job is to address your fears.

Still it is your right as a buyer to pay attention to your own comfort level with feathers as with every other diamond characteristic.
I'm not saying everyone should never buy any diamond with a feather.
I'm just saying after getting educated it is your right to make your own decision about feathers on a case by case basis, OR just avoid them entirely.

Todd- the part in red was what I objected to. An honest vendor won't try to minimize real defects. They'll alert the buyer to them. I'm sure you would do that.
I agree with you, and Kenny, to an extent- a lot of sellers will try to minimize true deficits in the products they sell.
But the type of feathers contained in a accurately graded ( GIA graded) VS2 diamond are simply not anything to be concerned about.
No one should buy any stone they don't want- but I strongly believe that by making sure accurate information is posted, it benefits all - buyer and honest sellers alike.
See, if feathers in a VS2 were truly a problem, then the seller in question was trying to pass off a bill of goods. But the statement "Feathers in a VS2 are nothing to worry about" is not false. If we can't tell the wheat from the chaff, accurate, informative information goes down the drain.
Look at immunizations for kids- and the fuss that's being made.
Not to compare measles vaccine with diamonds in scope- but the point is that false warnings can be harmful to accurate info. I believe readers want accurate info.

I think that I'm a bit different than most diamond buyers in that I simply don't purchase anything (or sell any diamonds) which contain inclusions that I'm not comfortable with and/or which do not exhibit the visual performance which I expect... Suppliers have tried to force me into accepting a percentage of diamonds which I don't want in exchange for getting the ones which I wanted and I refuse. Cries of "but you've cherry picked all the really good stones - you HAVE to take some of the less desirable stones!" don't work with me... there are other suppliers who don't make such demands of me. But I hear what you're saying and understand that many vendors have not learned to stand up to their suppliers yet, but this isn't really accurate in terms of my competitors here on PS because I know that most of them cherry pick diamonds for their inventory in much the same way... And at the end of the day, our suppliers will sell those less desirable diamonds to a dealer with different selection standards and/or experience as a buyer.

Back in the mid 1990's when we were first introduced to H&A quality ideal cut diamonds, we were holding about $300K in inventory in non-ideal cut rounds... We were so impressed with the visual performance of the H&A diamonds that we wanted to sell nothing else and after discovering that our clients would select an ideal cut diamond over a non-ideal (premium cut, like AGS-2 proportions) practically every time, we sold off our inventory via the MLS and didn't look back... I don't know that most dealers would have done that, but I don't like to explain away inclusions or poor visual performance... I'd rather sell what I love and ensure that I do by only representing diamonds which don't give me pause...

And yes, I did learn this lesson the hard way! A few years ago a client walked into the store carrying a file folder full of pages which he'd printed off of the internet... it made me chuckle. Until he pulled out an inventory list from another internet dealer (who drop ships) and asked whether I could source a diamond which he was interested in... It was listed as a 1.60 carat, I color, SI-2 and was graded by a franchise laboratory which I consider to be sub-par; I immediately balked, but he insisted that it was the diamond he wanted... so I brought it in for evaluation and when the client showed up I politely explained why the diamond was structurally unsound (the feather which was the primary inclusion ran parallel to the girdle edge for like 3/4 of the circumference of the diamond!) and in comparison to my master set, the diamond was more L color than I color - which I explained was why it seemed like such a reasonable price for the grades represented on the "lab report", blah, blah, blah and then the customer said "Great, I'll take it!"

HUH?!?! Perhaps you didn't hear me... The feather within this diamond is positioned in such a way and is extensive enough that I'm afraid that 3/4 of the edge of this diamond will fall off if the diamond takes a good whack! And I don't agree with the clarity and color assigned to the diamond by the laboratory, I think the diamond is of a much lower quality...

And the customer said that he understood everything that I was saying, but that his fiance had picked this diamond out online and this is the diamond that she wanted... there was no talking him out of it. Finally I agreed to sell the diamond to him with the addition of a written disclaimer on our sales receipt which read "The diamond described does not meet our standard selection criteria and contains inclusions which we feel present an extreme durability risk. No warranty of any kind is applicable, nor implied. Buyer has been made aware of the risk and assumes all liability. Diamond not eligible for trade-in or consignment." Sign here... Okay, it's yours...

And do you know where that diamond ended up? On the hand of one of the tellers at the bank across the street from the store and every time I walked into the store, she would raise up her hand and holler "It's Nice Ice!" to my internal horror. I can't tell you how happy I was when they broke up and the diamond was sold to a local pawn dealer... not very nice, I know, but that diamond didn't come close to Nice Ice standards and was probably the most expensive diamond I ever sold in terms of negative advertising impact (if anybody looked at that diamond and heard her say "it's Nice Ice" I'm sure that their internal dialogue was "well I'll never buy one of those!")

So yea, I simply don't sell anything that I don't like... it's not worth it. $$$ Lesson learned $$$

 

[LD]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Oh Todd I absolutely loved your story. Just goes to show that for some people, all the "normal" issues and concerns don't apply and it's simply love at first sight!

Smart wording on the sales receipt!

 

[jeaniefish]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Hey Rockdiamond!
Thanks for your input about selling my current diamond. But you just couldn't resist, could you ? The "crack" about feathers. Thanks alot!
Jean

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

You're very welcome Jean!

I wish you the best- and hope this all works out exactly the way you want.

I think I remember you mentioned you'd had the diamond re-cut- I'll bet it's a beauty!!
You'll be able to find a buyer, I feel sure.

That was an interesting story Todd!

It's true that buyers for large sellers may have to buy stones they don't really like.
If the buyer for a department store needs 100 one carat stones there's simply no way for them to be as particular as you or I - or any of the better boutique type sellers such as most PS sponsors.
We're also extremely particular- none of the cutters we buy from would try to force us to buy stones we were not extremely fond of.
The exception might be a "lot" where it's an all or nothing proposition.
But even then we have always managed to twist the seller's arm enough to allow us to reject stones we were not happy with.
Personally, I don't find small internal feathers objectionable- and there has never been a single case of this type of imperfection causing us a problem during setting- or afterwards.
But of course, to each his own!

 

[jeaniefish]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Todd,
I had a "courageous conversation" with my DH a little while ago about how to reorganize the kitchen pantry Needless to say, a good laugh was really welcomed at that point , so I took a "time out" and logged on here. It's encouraging to know,as a potential buyer with little knowlege about diamonds,that there are dealers who take such care about the diamonds they select.
Jean

 

[Todd Gray]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Todd,
I had a "courageous conversation" with my DH a little while ago about how to reorganize the kitchen pantry Needless to say, a good laugh was really welcomed at that point , so I took a "time out" and logged on here. It's encouraging to know,as a potential buyer with little knowlege about diamonds,that there are dealers who take such care about the diamonds they select.
Jean

Thanks Jean

In my experience, most of the diamond dealers here on PS who hand select diamonds for their inventory do so with great care and adhere to a criteria which is standard to their operation. I'm certainly not alone in my, err, anal retentive nature when it comes to my selection process... but I agree with RD that I (and several other PS vendors) enjoy a rare exception by operating smaller scale business than many of our retail counterparts who operate large chain operations in that we're able to hand select each diamond for inventory and are able to spend upwards of an hour personally evaluating every diamond that we sell. If I were employed as a buyer for a large chain, I certainly wouldn't be able to afford the luxury of that kind of time!

You know... that emerald cut was listed on the MLS used by the trade and thus it is likely that another PS vendor could source it and evaluate it on your behalf. Note that I'm not offering to do so, the reality is that we're still in the midst of cleaning up probate related issues and I can't pull it in because I don't have a relationship with the supplier listed for that stone - but cruise the forum and select another vendor who appeals to you and I'm sure that they would be happy to try and source the stone and provide you with more detailed information than is currently provided by the seller on eBay. I have thoughts as to who I'd contact for this project, but don't think I can mention them on the forum without getting spanked (appropriately by admin) but the vendors who I'm thinking of are quite prominent and any one of the three will do just fine. And they might be willing to take your existing emerald cut in on consignment to help offset the cost... it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[jeaniefish]

Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Thanks Todd,
Great advice and I really do appreciate it. Also, thanks to everyone who took the time to post their answers and allay some of my fears. It really is a scary world out there if you are a once-in-while- buyer. I try to read everything I can but so much of it is way above my "learning curve" and makes my head spin!
Jean