Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Diamond choice dilemma

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
Hi guys,

Have been searching for a while and been given a last minute curve ball by the jeweller I’ve been talking to. We have been looking at online diamonds he can get but has also just told me about a diamond in the shop. He is not pressuring me into purchasing the one in the shop but it does seem like the specs sound very good in comparison to what we can get on line. It has the following specs;

1.01crt round brilliant
CLarity: IF
D colour
No fluorescence.
Polish, symmetry and proportions all excellent.
Table diameter 55.5%
Crown height 15%
Pavilion depth 42.5%
Thin to medium girdle thickness
Cutlet size pointed.
Hearts and arrows “ideal cut”

this diamond is IGI certified from Antwerp around 2006 and this is what’s doing my head in, based on reading on the internet it’s not up to the same standard of GIA rating. The specs are excellent and works out to be around $7k.

im thinking even if the rock isn’t quite at the level of what’s in the IGI report it may still be worth the 7k. If it had a gia report then may be down graded a little based on what I read on the Internet.

can anyone give me their thoughts? Much appreciated
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
Thanks, I’ll ask the same. What’s your view on the specs and measurements I put above?
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
What's the crown and pavilion angles that are being reported? With 42.5% pavilion I'm guessing around a 40.6 pavilion angles. And 15% crown height around 34.5 to 35 crown angle.

Is that about right?

While IGI is not well respected in the US because of lack of consistency, etc it's my understanding their international operations are more reputable, even if not to the standards of GIA or AGS.

Remember the whole point of a cert is to provide reassurance. They claim a D IF but what if it's actually a G VS1 and you pay for a F VVS2? See how confusing that is?

If he's serious and you are really interested I would ask them to recertify with AGS. If the specs come back the same, you should pay the cert fee. If not, he pays and you can walk on the deal or he adjusts the price accordingly.

Also, if this is a true H&A stone with ideal cut make him provide you H&A images along with an ASET image so we can help you determine light performance and symmetrical precision.

In short, he needs to put up or shut up. ;)2
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
What's the crown and pavilion angles that are being reported? With 42.5% pavilion I'm guessing around a 40.6 pavilion angles. And 15% crown height around 34.5 to 35 crown angle.

Is that about right?

While IGI is not well respected in the US because of lack of consistency, etc it's my understanding their international operations are more reputable, even if not to the standards of GIA or AGS.

Remember the whole point of a cert is to provide reassurance. They claim a D IF but what if it's actually a G VS1 and you pay for a F VVS2? See how confusing that is?

If he's serious and you are really interested I would ask them to recertify with AGS. If the specs come back the same, you should pay the cert fee. If not, he pays and you can walk on the deal or he adjusts the price accordingly.

Also, if this is a true H&A stone with ideal cut make him provide you H&A images along with an ASET image so we can help you determine light performance and symmetrical precision.

In short, he needs to put up or shut up. ;)2
There were no other specs on the IGI report, only the ones I listed so unfortunately I don’t have the angles.
Im in Australia so not simple to get it inspected unless it gets sent overseas.
The jeweller claims to have purchased this a while ago 10+years... They have an excellent reputation here in Australia but wary as does sound like a very good deal with those specs. They other option we were discussing was to purchase off the internet and he didn’t mind if I went with either option, no pressure was applied to shape my decision to buying the IGI diamond.

the rock in the flesh looks excellent but that’s to my untrained eye!
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
According to the diamond search tool (under the resources tab above) a true H+A diamond with these specs should set you back around $15k so there is something not right here. Definitely in the realm of “too good to be true”.
very true! He did say it was worth about 20k aud... but since had it for a while preferred to get rid of it for liquidity.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
Being in Australia have you found Holloway Diamonds yet? @Garry H (Cut Nut) is the owner and also the creator of the idealscope along with being a moderator here.

If close by, it would be a good spot to see some quality stones and maybe buy an IS scope.

I agree it sounds suspect about real value at $20k and liquidating for $7k because they've owned for 10+ years. Seems fishy.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
Since you have nothing better to go by, you can use the math noted here to estimate the crown & pavilion angles using the table, crown height & pavilion depth percentages. The problem is these percentage values are averaged and rounded so it's really just an approximation and not exact science.


If you want to utilize tan-1 in Excel, you have to be a little trickier and use the degrees and atan functions. Below is a screen cap of how to do it.

Based on this, it appears this "ideal cut" stone has a near 34 crown and 40.36 pavilion. If it's really slipping below 40.6 it concerns me as you may have some leakage. Definitely need to do some additional research and get images or use a scope to confirm light performance.


Capture200.PNG

Capture201.PNG
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,125
So I have two questions: if the diamond is that great, why hasn’t he sold it in the past decade, and if the diamond is that great, why can’t he sell it at full retail price since at the price he’s selling it he won’t be able to replace it in his inventory. Those two questions are what makes this look less like a good deal and more like he’s running some dodgy sales tactic on you. But as people above have said: have him send it out for an AGS (or even GIA) report and offer to pay the cost of the report in addition to the already agreed upon cost for the diamond if it comes back within one color and clarity grade of the IGI report (I wouldn’t insist on the same color/clarity grade - I think within one is sufficient).
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
Hi guys, thanks so much for all your replies it’s much appreciated.

this has put me off a bit and I don’t think I will pursue it!

Im now just looking online at comething like these that are GIA certified. All are excellent colour d SI1s. What’s your thoughts?




 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
Hi guys, thanks so much for all your replies it’s much appreciated.

this has put me off a bit and I don’t think I will pursue it!

Im now just looking online at comething like these that are GIA certified. All are excellent colour d SI1s. What’s your thoughts?


7646344.jpeg

6665446.jpeg

7959616.jpeg

7823473.jpeg
Attached the GIA reports above for each. Thanks all!
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
I would not recommend any of these. The proportions are not complimentary.

Try staying within these parameters:
  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5 if paired w/ 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired w/ 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets (aka LGF's)
  • Inverse relationship between the crown & pavilion angles, meaning steep crown/shallow pavilion or vice versa
  • HCA score of 0-2 (prefer 1-2 for an e-ring)(might possibly consider 2.5 in rare situations)
Am I understanding you correctly that you getting D color is of high importance to you? Have you seen some stones in person? I ask because many people have a tough time differentiating between D-G colored stones. So sometimes the "need" for a certain color or clarity is based on either cultural preferences, or the mindset that a certain grade is best.

If you were to get a true super ideal stone, this seems to be a good bargain for F color and VS2 clarity. Apply coupon SPOOK19 and get an extra $600 off the stone. =)2


Capture300.PNG


Here's a few others around the $7k range.



 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
I would not recommend any of these. The proportions are not complimentary.

Try staying within these parameters:
  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5 if paired w/ 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired w/ 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets (aka LGF's)
  • Inverse relationship between the crown & pavilion angles, meaning steep crown/shallow pavilion or vice versa
  • HCA score of 0-2 (prefer 1-2 for an e-ring)(might possibly consider 2.5 in rare situations)
Am I understanding you correctly that you getting D color is of high importance to you? Have you seen some stones in person? I ask because many people have a tough time differentiating between D-G colored stones. So sometimes the "need" for a certain color or clarity is based on either cultural preferences, or the mindset that a certain grade is best.

If you were to get a true super ideal stone, this seems to be a good bargain for F color and VS2 clarity. Apply coupon SPOOK19 and get an extra $600 off the stone. =)2


Capture300.PNG


Here's a few others around the $7k range.



hi Sledge,

thanks for taking the time to write.
I’m keen on James Allen as I have my eye on one of their rings and can’t find a similar one on white flash unfortunately.

I do not have a requirement for D colour, I was just going off the advice that colour is the second most important thing to consider.... but I’m learning a lot as I go, so I will broaden my search. Just want it to be as sparkly as possible!. I’ll try and search with the specs that you’ve provided above (if James Allen has these filters).

cheers
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
JA only allows you to filter by depth, table, lab and fluor levels. Additionally they decided to remove certs from their site a few months back, so you are going to have to request cert after cert to do searching with them.

Quite honestly, their recent tactics are real turn off and while I will help you regardless, JA won't get my own business as I don't want my dollars to support them.

On a side note, if you like a particular setting, you could post a link and maybe someone knows an alternate, or perhaps a custom option is feasible. Lastly, you could buy the setting from JA and have it shipped to WF so WF could set the stone. Just an idea.
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
JA only allows you to filter by depth, table, lab and fluor levels. Additionally they decided to remove certs from their site a few months back, so you are going to have to request cert after cert to do searching with them.

Quite honestly, their recent tactics are real turn off and while I will help you regardless, JA won't get my own business as I don't want my dollars to support them.

On a side note, if you like a particular setting, you could post a link and maybe someone knows an alternate, or perhaps a custom option is feasible. Lastly, you could buy the setting from JA and have it shipped to WF so WF could set the stone. Just an idea.
Ive got a few issues... one is time constraints I need it in approx 3 weeks :( this wasn't well planned by me unfortunately!

I appreciate the help.

The Certs are quite easy to get I just need to request on the chat. I have the following;

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.06-carat-e-color-si2-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-7879344
7879344.jpeg

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.01-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-7332218
7332218.jpeg

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.00-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-7608800
7608800.jpeg

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.01-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-7718502

7718502.jpeg
 

Snowdrop13

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,662
Please don’t rush into buying! This is an important purchase, and your partner will have to wear and look at this stone for a long time!

In terms of the 4 C’s, everyone has to make their own decision about a sweet spot. Here on Pricescope pretty much everyone will put CUT first, followed by CARAT. After that it varies. COLOR down to a G looks pretty white (although some people are very sensitive to this, it’s a good idea to see some stones in person. I have an ‘I‘ superideal which appears white to my eyes). CLARITY? Definitely look for something which is eye clean, personally I wouldn’t buy an Si2 but you can ask James Allen to vet it for you. VS2 and Si1 should be safe at this size.
 

Sunstorm

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
1,419
Because it has a 2006 report you definitely need a new report, it simply may not be an IF anymore and an over 1 carat D IF for sure needs to have a GIA (or AGS). Why pay for something that is not what you are paying for?
Reading about the price though something is likely not right here. I would just take the advice of the people here and make a safe and great choice,
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
Because it has a 2006 report you definitely need a new report, it simply may not be an IF anymore and an over 1 carat D IF for sure needs to have a GIA (or AGS). Why pay for something that is not what you are paying for?
Reading about the price though something is likely not right here. I would just take the advice of the people here and make a safe and great choice,
Cheers, agreed. I’ve chosen to move on from this as it’s put me off to be honest! I’m now looking at the JA options a few posts above that all have GIA Certs
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
I'm traveling but will try to comment later when I get home.
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
Thinking about checking our F colours also since from what I understand the difference will be barely noticeable and will likely be cheaper, appreciate some thoughts?
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,278
Thinking about checking our F colours also since from what I understand the difference will be barely noticeable and will likely be cheaper, appreciate some thoughts?
Unless your name is Clark Kent, you would not notice any difference between an E and an F in real life - it's tricky for 'normal people' to tell them apart on a white piece of paper, nevermind when one is on a finger, being waved around, not next to diamonds of adjacent colours, and reflecting the surrounding environment and lighting ;-)
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
Have you seen stones in person yet? I'd recommend you got to a local shop and have them pull D-H stones, GIA 3x and all around 1 carat size. Hopefully all with similar proportions too but that may be a lot to ask.

Essentially I would like you to view 5 as close to possible identical stones, except the color, in a side by side condition. Ask the sales person to NOT tell you which and which and then start identifying them by color using YOUR eyes.

Let's pretend you can identify the H has a little tint, but the other 4 stones look the same to you. Them I'd set your color minimum as G. Or perhaps although you see a smidge amount of tint in the H, maybe it's not bothersome, so you set H as your minimum.

Obviously lowering color requirements will help increase size, clarity or save a few bucks. And honestly if you can't see the difference between a D and G it's pointless to pay that price premium for a feature you can't see.

In regards to the other 4 stones, I probably like 2 the best but concerned with clarity because of size of clouds, clouds being grade setting and note about additional clouds not shown. I'm leery of SI2's and would want additional vetting to give me warm fuzzies. On 3 while it may work I don't like a shallow 34 crown paired with a shallow 40.6 pavilion. I am attaching the HCA for you though. The last one I don't love because of the shallow 33.5 crown. This in combo with other proportions is what's kicking up the earring/pendant note on the HCA.

I was trying to find you something better but fell asleep last night.

Again, here's the HCA on stone 3.

20191029_080057.jpg
Screenshot_20191029-080003_Chrome.jpg
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
Have you seen stones in person yet? I'd recommend you got to a local shop and have them pull D-H stones, GIA 3x and all around 1 carat size. Hopefully all with similar proportions too but that may be a lot to ask.

Essentially I would like you to view 5 as close to possible identical stones, except the color, in a side by side condition. Ask the sales person to NOT tell you which and which and then start identifying them by color using YOUR eyes.

Let's pretend you can identify the H has a little tint, but the other 4 stones look the same to you. Them I'd set your color minimum as G. Or perhaps although you see a smidge amount of tint in the H, maybe it's not bothersome, so you set H as your minimum.

Obviously lowering color requirements will help increase size, clarity or save a few bucks. And honestly if you can't see the difference between a D and G it's pointless to pay that price premium for a feature you can't see.

In regards to the other 4 stones, I probably like 2 the best but concerned with clarity because of size of clouds, clouds being grade setting and note about additional clouds not shown. I'm leery of SI2's and would want additional vetting to give me warm fuzzies. On 3 while it may work I don't like a shallow 34 crown paired with a shallow 40.6 pavilion. I am attaching the HCA for you though. The last one I don't love because of the shallow 33.5 crown. This in combo with other proportions is what's kicking up the earring/pendant note on the HCA.

I was trying to find you something better but fell asleep last night.

Again, here's the HCA on stone 3.

20191029_080057.jpg
Screenshot_20191029-080003_Chrome.jpg
Hi Sledge,

I’ve looked at D in comparison to a G stone in store and seemed to tell the difference, although not sure if that was due to the cut as the D looked much better. Probably a sales ploy to chose a more expensive diamond.

They also showed be a D and F and I couldn’t really tell them difference, so I’ll stick with F to D range.

I’ve got a few more. I’m getting so lost now in what may look good… especially with the shallow crown comments etc. the ones I listed below don’t seem to be as shallow.

1) $6170
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.01-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-7817954
7817954.png

2)$6020
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.03-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-7485309
7485309.png
 

PeaSoup

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2019
Messages
18
@sledge whats your thoughts on these 2?

I've cut my decision making down to the wire and need to pull the trigger on a purchase today, would be greatful if you could have a look at these two also.
 

Snowdrop13

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,662
Do you know if they’re both eye clean? The numbers and inclusions look better on the second one.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
3,811
Have you spoke to or considered GoG?

 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top