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DenverAppraiser on TV - Diamonds Aren''t Forever

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Shay37

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Congrats to Neil.

In a side note, INSURANCE anyone?

And if that wasn''t a hammered setting, it certainly had taken some cough abuse cough.

shay
 

Modified Brilliant

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Good job Neil.


The more information that appears in the media given by industry experts the better.
Not every jewelry and diamond consumer reads PS forums. I''m still amazed everyday how uninformed
some folks are about their expensive diamond rings. "Wear it and forget about it" is a common belief.


Diamonds can get damaged?


www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 

mrssalvo

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Date: 3/23/2007 8:35:10 PM
Author: Shay37


In a side note, INSURANCE anyone?
I was thinking the same thing shay...


congrats Neil!!
 

RockDoc

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Hi Neil

You made a nice presentation, but knowing how these things go with TV, I will bet a dollar to a donut, that they taped you for hours, and only presented a very small fraction of what you did.

The "L" shape break has me curious. Sounds like maybe some internal graining originally? Where you able to come up with a cause for this? For a girdle to chip in two spots, I think is rather uncommon too, Did it have a thin girdle or shallow crown.

Did she have insurance?

Not to play favorites here, but if you don''t have insurance, and have some damage in wear, I commonly see that consumers want to make the seller held liable. In some instances this may be deserved, but in others, I am not sure exactly how much liability the seller should have, and for how long.

You looked good in the interview.....kudos

Rockdoc
 

Regular Guy

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Yes Neil congratulations, and good work.

Can you share if she did have insurance? I''m guessing not. Even if she didn''t realize that should happen to a diamond...did she think she might never lose it? Of course, there may be some risks she was willing to take, and not others. Then again...what''s the saying...fool me twice, shame on me?
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/23/2007 9:34:45 PM
Author: RockDoc
Hi Neil

You made a nice presentation, but knowing how these things go with TV, I will bet a dollar to a donut, that they taped you for hours, and only presented a very small fraction of what you did.

The ''L'' shape break has me curious. Sounds like maybe some internal graining originally? Where you able to come up with a cause for this? For a girdle to chip in two spots, I think is rather uncommon too, Did it have a thin girdle or shallow crown.

Did she have insurance?

Not to play favorites here, but if you don''t have insurance, and have some damage in wear, I commonly see that consumers want to make the seller held liable. In some instances this may be deserved, but in others, I am not sure exactly how much liability the seller should have, and for how long.

You looked good in the interview.....kudos

Rockdoc
ITa - she acted as though tiffany diamonds are supposed to be harder or something LOL That "chip" is more like a giant cleave! And it seems to be under the half bezel... what''s up with that? I don''t think tiffany is responsible for this at all, didn''t they tell her to get insurance? LOL I''m surprised tiffany doesn''t offer Tiffany Brand tm insurance LOL
 

Beacon

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Nice interview, very professional!

I wonder what that gal did to crack that stone? I feel one would have had to have some awareness of hitting it or *something*. It''s totally ruined.

Did they give you on this stone? Were there any inclusions like feathers that might have made it vulnerable? Here is a case where if I only had the Tiffany cert, I would not feel as good as if I had a GIA cert.
 

denverappraiser

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Thanks. It was fun.

For obvious reasons, I can’t discuss the details of the client but I’ll try to answer what I can. Yes, the interview filming took about an hour and they chose about 15 seconds worth that they though made their point. I’m thrilled that they didn’t pick a segment of me picking my nose or something. I especially liked that the interview with the client was done in front of my safe with my company name in the background the entire time. It’s a pity they couldn’t spell my name right. I think the original idea was to put together a hatched job against Tiffany for selling defective diamonds and they were clearly a bit disappointed with what I had to say so perhaps I should be glad that it didn’t turn into a hatchet job aimed at me.

Based on looking at the mounting, the ring was subjected to a fair amount of wear, much of which is visible in the pictures. The mounting is cast 950 platinum. The damage to the stone occurred in at least 2 and possibly 3 separate incidences over the span of several years. The ‘L shaped chip' is a cleave that runs from the edge of the stone diagonally through to the pavilion, roughly parallel to the crown. The piece is completely separated from the bulk of the stone and is being held on by the channel wall. The visible girdle is thin faceted. The stone is roughly a 70 pointer. It was reported to have been a VS1 although the damage is so severe that there really is no way to corroborate that. I think it's entirely plausible.


As was mentioned at the end of the story, most insurance carriers would call this a covered peril under their standard policies. A claim for the first chip would probably have resulted in a complete replacement of the diamond which raises an interesting question about what the damages are for the second and subsequent events. If the stone was already worthless, there would be no monetary damages and insurance wouldn’t be applicable. Chipped diamonds generally have what’s known as salvage value, meaning that the insurance company can sell the damaged stone to a cutter after they’ve completed the claim and this was clearly lost by the latter damage but on a stone this size the salvage value after the original chip would have been a fraction of the value of the total claim. In effect, there was a loss from the big cleave that was the subject of the story but 90% of her monetary loss occurred at the time of the first chip several years before.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

denverappraiser

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Date: 3/24/2007 9:11:58 AM
Author: denverappraiser

The ‘L shaped chip' is a cleave that runs from the edge of the stone diagonally through to the pavilion, roughly parallel to the crown.
That should read 'the edge of the table.

Neil Beaty
GG(GA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/24/2007 2:39:36 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 3/24/2007 1:20:20 PM
Author: JohnQuixote


I don’t mean to question you Neil, but isn’t it possible that the altitude in Seriously though, congrats.
It’s nice that the media in Denver knew who to seek for top advice, and convenient that an ICGA just happens to live in the mile high city.
Buyers appreciate information on how to care-for & maintain their jewelry over time in general. In an ideal (excellent) world, we would do a better job communicating the importance of good insurance to all clients.Even a flawless diamond can chip if struck on a cleavage plane.

I’m impressed with your technical mumbo jumbo skills. I’m especially impressed with your usage of the technical term for Hooters Airlines but gosh John, why would someone strike you there, you’re a married man?



Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

ps. The client is from Aspen at close to double the altitude. I''m sure she counts Denver as the flatlands.
okay boys you''re too funny LOL Now I''m seriously afraid for my stone, I think I''ll go back to my original idea of incasing it in metal. It won''t sparkle much there, but it''ll be safe LOL
 

Maisie

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Good grief - what has she been doing? Boxing? That is one heck of a break!! I thought bezel settings were meant to protect the diamond..... I guess it can''t if you go round whacking stuff!!
 

denverappraiser

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Date: 3/24/2007 8:59:53 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
okay boys you''re too funny LOL Now I''m seriously afraid for my stone, I think I''ll go back to my original idea of incasing it in metal. It won''t sparkle much there, but it''ll be safe LOL

Cehra,


There is a certain breakage risk to owning diamonds, but it’s not really all that high. There’s an instructive lesson to be learned from the insurance companies here. They will assume this risk, along with the risk of theft, fire, loss and a whole litany of other perils for a fee on the order of 2% of the value per year. This would suggest that they expect to pay a claim less than once every 50 years. In practice, this sort of thing is nowhere near the top of the things so people file claims about so if we call it ¼ of the claims we’re talking an expected loss rate for breakage of once every 200 years. It’s actually less than that since they’re extracting some decent profits on this deal and I think 25% of the claims is probably a bit high. It’s also worth noting that they don’t give a discount for bezels or other settings that are seen as more secure. They just don’t see it as making all that much difference.


The moral of the story isn’t that you are especially pushing your luck by owning and wearing diamonds. Set it in something that makes your heart sing, buy an insurance policy backed by a well-documented appraisal, wear and enjoy it, and file a claim in the unlikely case that you need to. That’s what you’re paying them for.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 3/24/2007 9:38:02 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 3/24/2007 9:11:58 AM
Author: denverappraiser

The ‘L shaped chip'' is a cleave that runs from the edge of the stone diagonally through to the pavilion, roughly parallel to the crown.
That should read ''the edge of the table.

Neil Beaty
GG(GA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Great story Neil - well done

Roc and Neil, it seems to me that L shaped chips are the norm, not the exception when very large damage occurs.

And looking at the images of the shank of this ring, this lady is rough on her ring.
I suspect that the ring spins on her finger and the stone has been upside down inside her hand for the dents that we can see on the video in the metal itself. She probably should have balls inside the band to stop it spinning, or give up brick laying.

Also the usage of the word ''common'' for chipping - maybe un-common would be a better term?

John one of the nice things about diamond is they show well developed cleavage. And that is a very favourable thing. I am all in favour of it too.

Damaged diamonddamaged shank.JPG
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Here is an excellent example of L shaped damage on a princess we were polising the corners off. (We do that with every princess +1/2 ct in order to make them live forever).

Roc I suspect that this diamond may have been laser sawn because of excessive stress. It is one of the reasons why I now have changed my opinion about stress and risk of breakage since I know such stones are streamed to laser sawing and laser bruting in highly mechanised factories so as to reduce the cutters risk of breakage. (it was VS2 btw, before the event)

you can see how the chipping has followed the octahedral planes, and there are flaws now right through the rest of the stone.

I have donated the carcass to science. An article is being written about it for the Australian Gemmologist. Then it will go into the students collection at the GAA.

damage princess22.JPG
 

JohnQuixote

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Date: 3/24/2007 2:39:36 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 3/24/2007 1:20:20 PM
Author: JohnQuixote


I don’t mean to question you Neil, but isn’t it possible that the altitude in Seriously though, congrats.
It’s nice that the media in Denver knew who to seek for top advice, and convenient that an ICGA just happens to live in the mile high city.
Buyers appreciate information on how to care-for & maintain their jewelry over time in general. In an ideal (excellent) world, we would do a better job communicating the importance of good insurance to all clients.Even a flawless diamond can chip if struck on a cleavage plane.

I’m impressed with your technical mumbo jumbo skills. I’m especially impressed with your usage of the technical term for Hooters Airlines but gosh John, why would someone strike you there, you’re a married man?


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

ps. The client is from Aspen at close to double the altitude. I'm sure she counts Denver as the flatlands.
Ooh, he’s a TV star and a trickster!

Sorry boys, I’m a SWA man:Luv the festival seating and funny attendants…but I can think of several reasons one might get struck on Neil’s whimsical 'cleavage plane' (I’ll spare our gentle readers any shallow/shallow or Mohs jokes).

Neil, you get bonus points for working 'flatlands' into your post.

Judging by Garry's enthusiasm; if HA had routes to Oz they mightn’t have gone out of business.

(We’ll be here all night folks.Don’t forget to tip your waitresses.)
 

RockDoc

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Hi Garry

Was there strain in the stone before the "event"?

What was the event? Heat and vibration ? or an impact?

Do you have a side view with polarized filters? Top view doesn''t really show the angle of the grain direction.

Laser sawing does make the stones very brittle.

HPHT treatment results sometimes in organized strain patterns.

Looks like a fun stone to play with.

Rockdoc
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 3/25/2007 12:45:22 AM
Author: RockDoc
Hi Garry

Was there strain in the stone before the ''event''?

What was the event? Heat and vibration ? or an impact?

Do you have a side view with polarized filters? Top view doesn''t really show the angle of the grain direction.

Laser sawing does make the stones very brittle.

HPHT treatment results sometimes in organized strain patterns.

Looks like a fun stone to play with.

Rockdoc
As I wrote Roc, the stone was having its corners polished off. As you can see the others had already been done.
Unfortunately I did not check it with a polariscope before hand.
It has none now - but that is normal after the stone has broken for any inherennt stress to have been released.

I do not know if it was laser sawn.

I do not see the "fun" side of loosing a very fine 1ct diamond.
 

RockDoc

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Garry....

RE : Fun

I didn''t mean that in a way that would infer I thought the damage to the stone was fun.

I meant it from a scientific research position in trying to determine the ''why" it broke. True, if there is no strain evident once it was "released", there isn''t too much to be learned from it. But examining it to see what other factors might be ascertained would be "fun". I''ve been attempting to study this to determine relevant cause of these things. It is just difficult to get "before" and "after" samples to work on producing studies.

I certainly did not mean my use of the word "fun" in any negative way.

Rockdoc
 

pyramid

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Date: 3/24/2007 11:58:15 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Here is an excellent example of L shaped damage on a princess we were polising the corners off. (We do that with every princess +1/2 ct in order to make them live forever).

Roc I suspect that this diamond may have been laser sawn because of excessive stress. It is one of the reasons why I now have changed my opinion about stress and risk of breakage since I know such stones are streamed to laser sawing and laser bruting in highly mechanised factories so as to reduce the cutters risk of breakage. (it was VS2 btw, before the event)

you can see how the chipping has followed the octahedral planes, and there are flaws now right through the rest of the stone.

I have donated the carcass to science. An article is being written about it for the Australian Gemmologist. Then it will go into the students collection at the GAA.

Garry H

I meant to ask this at that time I read this thread, but are you also now of the opinion now that different types of inclusions in diamonds can pose a durability risk?
 

kcoursolle

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Date: 3/23/2007 8:35:10 PM
Author: Shay37
Congrats to Neil.

In a side note, INSURANCE anyone?

And if that wasn''t a hammered setting, it certainly had taken some cough abuse cough.

shay
I had the same thoughts after watching it!! Also, I thnk people in general wear their rings too much and don''t get them cleaned, polished, and inspected very often.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/9/2007 11:10:38 AM
Author: Pyramid

Date: 3/24/2007 11:58:15 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Here is an excellent example of L shaped damage on a princess we were polising the corners off. (We do that with every princess +1/2 ct in order to make them live forever).

Roc I suspect that this diamond may have been laser sawn because of excessive stress. It is one of the reasons why I now have changed my opinion about stress and risk of breakage since I know such stones are streamed to laser sawing and laser bruting in highly mechanised factories so as to reduce the cutters risk of breakage. (it was VS2 btw, before the event)

you can see how the chipping has followed the octahedral planes, and there are flaws now right through the rest of the stone.

I have donated the carcass to science. An article is being written about it for the Australian Gemmologist. Then it will go into the students collection at the GAA.

Garry H

I meant to ask this at that time I read this thread, but are you also now of the opinion now that different types of inclusions in diamonds can pose a durability risk?
The VS inclusion near the corner was not the corner that broke Pyramid.

On balance I still believe inclusions are more likely not to be the parts of diamonds that are associated with breakage.

Only the internal stress part was under discussion.
In that respect i still believe Roc''s old assertion that stress causes changes in diamonds optics that mean the proportions should change are popycock. (9The old Von Sterbug debate about 8* supremecy and cutting complexity)
 

BigDiamonds

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Very informative! It''s nice to know an independent appraiser in Denver- hopefully I will be seeing you soon!
 

pyramid

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Thanks Garry. Yes I had noticed it was the internal stress part you had discussed in regard to laser being used to cut rough but I just wondered if it also meant stress and inclusions. It must be horrible when a nice stone like that gets so much damage
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/10/2007 6:55:17 AM
Author: Pyramid
Thanks Garry. Yes I had noticed it was the internal stress part you had discussed in regard to laser being used to cut rough but I just wondered if it also meant stress and inclusions. It must be horrible when a nice stone like that gets so much damage
But Pyramid, it died fora good cause, because now you believe me that inclusions and breakage do not go hand in hand.
 
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