pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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Check out Neil''s new article: Why isn’t Rappaport pricing important for consumers?
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Denverappraiser on Rapaport Prices
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Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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Excellent! Neil sure has a way of explaining complicated things in a clear manner.
Yes, nice explanation on the Rap Sheet.....
For years I''ve been calling it the CRAPAPORT.
To further expound on this, one also needs to be aware that although Mr. Rap is perceived to be an "independent" person, he really isn''t.
Rap also sells diamonds as a brokerage. He also hosts tenders of mass quantities of diamonds to be sold by him.
In addition, to the Rap Sheet there is also a listing of diamonds he is brokering or at least was as part of the subscription service he provides.
This listing of actual stones offered for sale is much more indicative of prices, as it is a price list, rather than a price guide of data that is hypothetical.
Actually, the prices listed here on PS are far more reliable than Rap''s publication. Why? They are posted with the proportion information, and the stones actually exist. For the consumer this is light years more reliable than relying on the ''Crap Sheet''.
Think about this.... If as a broker Rap wants to get more for a particular quality of stone he is offering for sale, isn''t there a built in interest to increase the price on the price sheet?
Neil has certainly written a very informative analysis of this for consumers... Nice job Neil.
Rockdoc
For years I''ve been calling it the CRAPAPORT.
To further expound on this, one also needs to be aware that although Mr. Rap is perceived to be an "independent" person, he really isn''t.
Rap also sells diamonds as a brokerage. He also hosts tenders of mass quantities of diamonds to be sold by him.
In addition, to the Rap Sheet there is also a listing of diamonds he is brokering or at least was as part of the subscription service he provides.
This listing of actual stones offered for sale is much more indicative of prices, as it is a price list, rather than a price guide of data that is hypothetical.
Actually, the prices listed here on PS are far more reliable than Rap''s publication. Why? They are posted with the proportion information, and the stones actually exist. For the consumer this is light years more reliable than relying on the ''Crap Sheet''.
Think about this.... If as a broker Rap wants to get more for a particular quality of stone he is offering for sale, isn''t there a built in interest to increase the price on the price sheet?
Neil has certainly written a very informative analysis of this for consumers... Nice job Neil.
Rockdoc
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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Thanks, Neil, I think this should be helpful to a lot of people.
Also, interesting procedural detail:
"What Rap does do is allow the dealers to keep the pricing of every stone current to the marketplace with a minimum of effort. When they originally buy a stone, they will examine that particular stone and set a price as a ratio of Rap based on these other characteristics."
I have to think what Leonid does with the Price Stats section, based on the tens of thousands listed on the "Quick Search," is based on a similar principle, allowing him to categorize automatically, based on an automatic screening of many data points, going beyond table & depth in some measure, allowing him to categorize in association with AGA grades.
Relatedly Rock, where you say...
Regards,
Also, interesting procedural detail:
"What Rap does do is allow the dealers to keep the pricing of every stone current to the marketplace with a minimum of effort. When they originally buy a stone, they will examine that particular stone and set a price as a ratio of Rap based on these other characteristics."
I have to think what Leonid does with the Price Stats section, based on the tens of thousands listed on the "Quick Search," is based on a similar principle, allowing him to categorize automatically, based on an automatic screening of many data points, going beyond table & depth in some measure, allowing him to categorize in association with AGA grades.
Relatedly Rock, where you say...
Agree with the first part, but to clarify on the second part...Pricescope''s two primary databases each have different data, with only the "search by cut" having the significant proportion data, and with the Quick Search/Price Stats sections having less of this.
Regards,
JohnQuixote
Ideal_Rock
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I second that. Nice job Neil. That link goes into my bookmarks.
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Roc,
Many people do not like Martin Rapaport, but his report does fill a need in the industry. Prior to it being published those of us who lived in places like Idaho were at the mercy of what ever pricing a dealer wished to impose upon us as we could not run down to the delaers on 47th and find out who would really give us the right pricing. We did not have the internet or Pricescope to assist us either, so we only got the best pricing when we went to NY or LA to fight for it, not when we needed a stone to fill in our inventories, as the dealers constantly charged us one price when trying to get our business, and another when filling our requests for stones between trips to the big cities.
While there are many pluses and minuses to his sheet, your calling it the Crap report is disrespectful and completely ignores its historical value and the openess that it brough to the market. Much of the openess that exists today started with Martin Rapaport, who at the time was threatened for his very life and I believe thrown out of the diamond dealer''s club. (I don''t remember all of the details, but I believe he was thrown out and had to go to court to be reinstated, someone who remembers accurately might illuminate us further on this.)
Perhaps I am overly sensitive on this Labor day, but I really find your post to be in poor taste and somewhat offensive.
Wink
Many people do not like Martin Rapaport, but his report does fill a need in the industry. Prior to it being published those of us who lived in places like Idaho were at the mercy of what ever pricing a dealer wished to impose upon us as we could not run down to the delaers on 47th and find out who would really give us the right pricing. We did not have the internet or Pricescope to assist us either, so we only got the best pricing when we went to NY or LA to fight for it, not when we needed a stone to fill in our inventories, as the dealers constantly charged us one price when trying to get our business, and another when filling our requests for stones between trips to the big cities.
While there are many pluses and minuses to his sheet, your calling it the Crap report is disrespectful and completely ignores its historical value and the openess that it brough to the market. Much of the openess that exists today started with Martin Rapaport, who at the time was threatened for his very life and I believe thrown out of the diamond dealer''s club. (I don''t remember all of the details, but I believe he was thrown out and had to go to court to be reinstated, someone who remembers accurately might illuminate us further on this.)
Perhaps I am overly sensitive on this Labor day, but I really find your post to be in poor taste and somewhat offensive.
Wink
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Thanks for the kind words everyone.
The dynamic in the PS database is somewhat different but the price stats tables are subject to some similar problems. Leonid doesn’t set the prices, he just processes the data and applies the formatting. The sellers set the price of each stone based on whatever criteria they wish. If a stone is listed by a dealer at a price that is perceived as too high for what it is, it won’t sell. It will set there until the market catches up with it, until the dealer gets tired of looking at it and lowers the price, or they pull it out and spend their efforts and bandwidth to list something that they think will be more promising. If a stone is perceived as being priced too low, it will quickly be bought and it will disappear from the database to be replaced by another with a higher price. As with Rap at the wholesale level, it’s a self equalizing system because the dealers are motivated to sell stones for as much as they can get while still actually making sales in light of the competitive reality of pricescope. It costs them money to carry the stone in inventory and it costs them money and reputation to keep listing a stone that never sells, especially if it’s seen as being overpriced, misgraded or otherwise deficient.
It''s worth noting that although the price stats tables are are based on actual stones, these are advertised asking prices, not actual transactions. Pricescope is better than most advertising venues about keeping these similar but they are decidedly not the same thing and the difference can be pretty important under certain circumstances.
Niel Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
The dynamic in the PS database is somewhat different but the price stats tables are subject to some similar problems. Leonid doesn’t set the prices, he just processes the data and applies the formatting. The sellers set the price of each stone based on whatever criteria they wish. If a stone is listed by a dealer at a price that is perceived as too high for what it is, it won’t sell. It will set there until the market catches up with it, until the dealer gets tired of looking at it and lowers the price, or they pull it out and spend their efforts and bandwidth to list something that they think will be more promising. If a stone is perceived as being priced too low, it will quickly be bought and it will disappear from the database to be replaced by another with a higher price. As with Rap at the wholesale level, it’s a self equalizing system because the dealers are motivated to sell stones for as much as they can get while still actually making sales in light of the competitive reality of pricescope. It costs them money to carry the stone in inventory and it costs them money and reputation to keep listing a stone that never sells, especially if it’s seen as being overpriced, misgraded or otherwise deficient.
Rather like Rap, the price stats tables derived from the database don’t, and can’t, include every important attribute of every stone and every deal for every customer. Not everyone is looking for the same things and most marketplaces are importantly different than the one here. It doesn’t work to compare one market with another without first being careful to understand both, a step that few people bother to take. Looking up a set of specs in the database and expecting a designer store in Aspen to charge those prices, or even a simple multiplier based on them is, quite simply, unreasonable. It’s not a valid comparison and I think it’s no more appropriate to use the database for this purpose than it would be to use Rap.
It''s worth noting that although the price stats tables are are based on actual stones, these are advertised asking prices, not actual transactions. Pricescope is better than most advertising venues about keeping these similar but they are decidedly not the same thing and the difference can be pretty important under certain circumstances.
Niel Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
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