Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Definition of Eye Clean??

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
D

dastewar

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
43
I imagine that eye clean means different things to different people, and I am curious as to how others on this forum think of eye clean.

I''ve been thinking of it as any inclusion you can see with your eye (of course!) at any face up angle (not from the bottom) from any distance. After reading this forum, I became encouraged to consider SI stones, but the SI''s I''ve seen all fail my definition. Once I locate the inclusion with my eye, I have a mental hurdle that I''m tripping over -- I guess I think it''s not "mind clean" to me.

Maybe I''m overanalyzing it -- I''m interested to see what others think of as an eye clean.
 
my definition of eye clean is the same as yours. For it to be eye clean, I would not be able to detect the imperfection without a loupe looking at it from any distance. It''s for this reason I personally would lean towards vs2 or even (gasp!) vs1. I know there are some very eye clean si-1''s on these threads but I think it would take a lot of looking to find them. Once I knew where the imperfection was that would be all that I would be able to see and it would drive me nuts! I think there is a wide array of si-1''s, some are eye clean (or close) while others aren''t to me. If I could find an eye clean one in this clarity grade it would save money for sure over a vs1 especially or vs2.
 
In the trade, eye clean is loosely defined as no visible inclusions face up from about 12-18 inches with the unaided eye.

With your mind set, go for VS clarity - you will sleep better, and not second guess yourself.
 
Date: 5/11/2005 9:24:42 PM
Author:Smith
I imagine that eye clean means different things to different people, and I am curious as to how others on this forum think of eye clean.
Click to expand...

We get this question a lot.

Eye-clean ‘live:’

Our definition is that inclusions are not seen when the diamond is viewed in the face-up position between 8 and 10 inches away, using natural daylight and 20/20 vision. This is a baseline.

Remember that if someone is nearsighted or has radar vision they may see more than others. For that matter, scrutiny from 2.5 inches away, after studying the plot of inclusions or for over-long periods of time could reveal more - but these are not normal viewing conditions.

Another thought... Eye-Clean and photos:

When Internet shopping, you will likely be looking at high quality magnified photos. Remember that no one ever sees a diamond at 40x mag when they walk into a jewelry store unless they are permitted to see it under a microscope. A large computer monitor makes that 40x photo even more revealing.

If you’re going photo-happy (have viewed so many you may be losing perspective) try this: Take a mm ruler and place it on your screen. Measure the picture on the monitor and then consider the actual size of your diamond, from the documentation. This will give an idea of the virtual compared to the reality.
 
John,

In order to be "eye-clean" face up from 2" what clarity grade do you need to be looking at?

VS1?

VS2?
 
My definition is the same as yours, and I have an SI1 stone. The only time I have seen any inclusions is when I didn''t have glasses on or contacts in (I''m nearsighted, looked at the plot to find the inclusions, and had the stone face down. When I have let jewelers look at my stone through a loupe now that it''s set, all have guessed my stone is at least a VS2 (and usually a G in color!). So, there are good SI stones out there. That being said, I have seen my fair share of SI stones with extremely visible inclusions. I think the type of inclusion really makes a difference with whether you see it.
 
It does seem that from F to VS2, the clarity grades are pretty tight, but SI1 & SI2 play a little loose and fast.
 
Date: 5/11/2005 10
6.gif
4:32 PM
Author: USFBulls
John,

In order to be 'eye-clean' face up from 2' what clarity grade do you need to be looking at?

VS1?
VS2?
Click to expand...

VS1 and VS2 should only be visible under magnification. Of course, there are SI1 and SI2 diamonds that may have no noticable inclusions from your 2" distance as well... It all depends on the diamond and how it was graded.

Here is a GIA page that gives some defs.

Much depends on the lab, boys and girls. That is why it's necessary to fix our own definition of eye-clean within the SI grades.
 
Now this is interesting. From the GIA website:

Slightly Included (SI1 and SI2): contain noticeable inclusions which are easy (SI1) or very easy (SI2) to see under 10X. In some SIs, inclusions can be seen with the unaided eye.

When I took the GIA Diamond Grading Class (got to grade actual stones) in 1989 the definition was:
Slightly Included (SI1 and SI2): contain noticeable inclusions which are easy (SI1) or very easy (SI2) to see under 10X. In SI2 they may be eye-visible through the pavillion when the stone is table-down on a white background.

Has the GIA loosened up the SI clarity grades?

 
my best advise when buying SI stones is don''t EVER loupe the stone first, try to find the inclusions under different light conditions with your naked eyes (top view) without knowing where the inclusions are located ,this way your mind can''t play tricks on you,if it''s eye clean then it''s eye clean.
 
from the tutorial:

SI2 is the borderline of ‘eye visible’. My definition: if an inclusion is apparent to the naked eye, in normal light, from 14-16 inches, without knowing its position, the stone is ‘I’ for Imperfect or the European term – ‘ P’ for Pique (PeeKay).

1 in 100 people can see VS2 inclusions; if this worries you then buy VS1, or wait a decade till your ability to focus close up drops away ;-)
 
Date: 5/12/2005 12:15:52 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
from the tutorial:

SI2 is the borderline of ‘eye visible’. My definition: if an inclusion is apparent to the naked eye, in normal light, from 14-16 inches, without knowing its position, the stone is ‘I’ for Imperfect or the European term – ‘ P’ for Pique (PeeKay).

1 in 100 people can see VS2 inclusions; if this worries you then buy VS1, or wait a decade till your ability to focus close up drops away ;-)
Click to expand...
If 1 in 100 can see VS2 inclusions how many can see SI 1 inclusions?
 
1 in 20 or 1 in 50 maybe engagement age couples might be able to see VS2
Maybe 2 or 3 times as many can see SI1 - this is just my anecdotal experiance.
 
I''ll say it again. There is no hard statistic with SI inclusion visibility.

It''s all dependent on a combo platter of the particular diamond, the lab that did the grading and the viewer him/herself.
 
Date: 5/12/2005 1:34:23 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
1 in 20 or 1 in 50 maybe engagement age couples might be able to see VS2
Maybe 2 or 3 times as many can see SI1 - this is just my anecdotal experiance.
Click to expand...
Garry
what is engagement age?
34.gif
 
ha ha ha
30.gif


what ever age you are when the feeling comes over you
36.gif


I thinking late 20''s - as opposed to blind boomers like me with pryosobia
 
Date: 5/12/2005 4:22
6.gif
3 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
as opposed to blind boomers like me with pryosobia
Click to expand...
Pyrosobia?

Whats that? The uncontrolable urge to set things on fire when sober?
 
It meght be spulled wrung, but it is how your arms keep getting shorter as you get older.
and the print on menus gets smaller
 
Presbyopia Garry, but surely that does not apply to you - it usually only affects people once they reach their mid forties!
9.gif
 
Date: 5/11/2005 11:50:12 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
my best advise when buying SI stones is don''t EVER loupe the stone first, try to find the inclusions under different light conditions with your naked eyes (top view) without knowing where the inclusions are located ,this way your mind can''t play tricks on you,if it''s eye clean then it''s eye clean.
Click to expand...
DF, this is very sage advice, IMO.
1.gif
When I first looked at my stone--with my eyes and a quick 10X louping, I couldn''t see anything, prompting to ask my jeweler what the catch was...I mean, was he really showing us a 3 ct VS1 we were NOT about to spend $60,000 on????? It was only AFTER I looked at the cert plot that I saw why it was an SI2--there was one feather off to the side...once I saw the plot, knew where to look, took the loupe and tilted the stone a certain way,I could see it.

To quote DF, eye clean and mind clean are two different things...what your "mind" (and eye) can tolerate may be different from others. i know some people would have gone nuts once they knew where that inclusion was...others like myself wouldn''t care becasue it fit our bill for "mind clean" and eye clean.

This is a personal threshold. Look at a lot of stones and you''ll know what makes you most comfortable. Same with the color grade as well.
1.gif
 
My definition of "eye clean" is like yours. No visible inclusions at any angle. but even some VS diamonds aren''t "eye clean" they can have inclusions to the side of or underneath the stone. My SI1 diamond is "eye clean" but when I loupe it, the inclusion on the side jumps out at me. My other ering was also an SI1 and when I louped that, it took a long time to find the inclusions. I personally don''t mind seeing inclusions through the loupe. IMO, why pay for a quality that can''t be seen with the naked eye (vvs-some SI''s)? The only thing about SI diamonds is that you absolutely can''t buy them sight unseen (unless you trust your vendor) because the inclusions may or may not be visible.
 
Date: 5/12/2005 1:46:28 AM
Author: JohnQuixote
I''ll say it again. There is no hard statistic with SI inclusion visibility.

It''s all dependent on a combo platter of the particular diamond, the lab that did the grading and the viewer him/herself.
Click to expand...
John,

I am very interested in purchasing a diamond from WF in the next month or so.

Since my definition of eye clean differs than yours if i specify what i am looking for will you guys let me know if the SI 1 or SI2 i am considering is eye clean under my definition or yours?

just trying to clear up any misunderstandings before they occur.

thanks!
 
Date: 5/12/2005 12:41:25 PM
Author: USFBulls

John,

I am very interested in purchasing a diamond from WF in the next month or so.

Since my definition of eye clean differs than yours if i specify what i am looking for will you guys let me know if the SI 1 or SI2 i am considering is eye clean under my definition or yours?

just trying to clear up any misunderstandings before they occur.

thanks!
Click to expand...
USFBulls,

No problem. We realize that definitions vary and can be confusing. That's why we are very specific about our baseline for judgment.

When you determine which diamond(s) you're interested in let us know, and include a description of what you expect, specifically, in regard to cleanliness. One of our team, often Brian, can speak to you live via phone with the diamond in-hand if you like.

Thanks for the clarity, err, clarification
1.gif
 
The only visible thing on mine without a loupe is a tiny little "feather" along the girdle, just below the girdle and just barely breaking it. Its something a prong could cover but its so tiny and only seen by ME that I won''t do it so I can see it.

Eye clean to me means you cant see it when looking at it face up.
 
If you can see something little like that then you always know you have your diaamond
 
Thanks John
 
I have had my SI 2 stone from Whiteflash for a year and, although I can easily see the inclusions under a loupe, there are several small ones, I still cannot locate them without the loupe.
My stone is 4.10 carats and it is hard to find an eye clean Si 2 in that size. I specified what I wanted and waited a few months. Lesley rejected several more expensive stones because she felt they were not eye clean. She finally came up with the perfect stone for me.
I was very pleased with the stone and the excellent service I got from Whiteflash. Brian gave me a full explanation of the stone and it was better than described.
 
Date: 5/11/2005 10:09:19 PM
Author: Smith
It does seem that from F to VS2, the clarity grades are pretty tight, but SI1 & SI2 play a little loose and fast.
Click to expand...

You may be under the fairly common misconception that the clarity grades are exact measurements and of the same size. A VVS clarity grade is extremely tight and a small grade, a VS grade is larger in its parameters and an SI grade is huge in comparrison. Clarity grading is much more an interpretive art form than a measurement such as color or cutting. Some inclusions in black are an easy I1, whereas the same inclusion in a colorless crystal may easily be an SI1 or conceivably a VS2. Granted, those would be extreme examples, but it is not so much that the graders are playing fast and losse, but that there are much greater variations allowed in those grades.

Even many I1 stones are eye clean under normal viewing conditions, but may be graded I1 because of potentially damaging inclusions, such as a cleavage breaking the plane of the girdle. Many of you would be surprised at the eye clean stones you could enjoy if you did not have the plot and a loupe to guide you to the inclusion, but many of you will be able to spot the same inclusions with your eyes. It depends a lot on your eyes.

I have one client who can consistently point out VS2 inclusions to me without ever using a loupe and he can do it from across my desk. I can not see the same inclusions with my glasses off from three inches and because I am very nearsighted I have nearly 2x vision at three inches. This is a good thing for my business, because he always buys at least VS1 stones, sometimes VVS.

It all boils down to what your eyes perceive and what you want. Feel free to want or demand the higher clarity grades if you like them, feel free to save some money if your eyes do not see the lower clarity grades and the idea of them does not detract from your enjopyment of the stones.

By the way, here is a thought. I have a few clients who like unusual inclusions, such as the perfect 12 or 13 billion year old "replica" of the space shuttle from Deep Space Nine that was found in a diamond I was appraising for a client. They bought the stone when they were young and poor and she always wanted to upgrade to an eye clean stone. Once I showed them the space shuttle under the microscope they ended up buying her a pair of earrings instead of upgrading. I now have a small group local clients I call when I find a really wonderful inclusion in stones that I am inspecting for purchase.

Each diamond can be unique, and so are their buyers. Look at the stone with your eyes and let your heart tell you what is right for you. Paper is nice for security of purchase, but it should not be the determinant of what you will accept or not accept.

Wink
 
Date: 5/13/2005 10:17:35 AM
Author: Wink

By the way, here is a thought. I have a few clients who like unusual inclusions, such as the perfect 12 or 13 billion year old ''replica'' of the space shuttle from Deep Space Nine that was found in a diamond I was appraising for a client. They bought the stone when they were young and poor and she always wanted to upgrade to an eye clean stone. Once I showed them the space shuttle under the microscope they ended up buying her a pair of earrings instead of upgrading. I now have a small group local clients I call when I find a really wonderful inclusion in stones that I am inspecting for purchase.
Click to expand...
Wink, that''s a really wonderful story, and concept. Months ago, someone else...was it Mara...??...suggested they, too, looked for diamonds with specifically interesting inclusions.

Certainly, this is a way to non-commoditize them. If I were creating a database for these guys, seems like it could be handy to have a column with an open field to mention things like that.

And where you say you..."have a small group local clients I call when I find a really wonderful inclusion in stones that I am inspecting for purchase..." what a wonderful way to add a creative component to your work!
 
Date: 5/11/2005 9:56:38 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 5/11/2005 9:24:42 PM
Author:Smith
I imagine that eye clean means different things to different people, and I am curious as to how others on this forum think of eye clean.
Click to expand...

We get this question a lot.

Eye-clean ‘live:’

Our definition is that inclusions are not seen when the diamond is viewed in the face-up position between 8 and 10 inches away, using natural daylight and 20/20 vision. This is a baseline.

Remember that if someone is nearsighted or has radar vision they may see more than others. For that matter, scrutiny from 2.5 inches away, after studying the plot of inclusions or for over-long periods of time could reveal more - but these are not normal viewing conditions.

Another thought... Eye-Clean and photos:

When Internet shopping, you will likely be looking at high quality magnified photos. Remember that no one ever sees a diamond at 40x mag when they walk into a jewelry store unless they are permitted to see it under a microscope. A large computer monitor makes that 40x photo even more revealing.

If you’re going photo-happy (have viewed so many you may be losing perspective) try this: Take a mm ruler and place it on your screen. Measure the picture on the monitor and then consider the actual size of your diamond, from the documentation. This will give an idea of the virtual compared to the reality.
Click to expand...

Excellent input Sir John.

Expounding upon this ... Clarity is perhaps the one characteristic that is most overestimated by clients who come to the store after viewing magnified images online. Many times we''ll pull out an SI1 that they swore they''d be able to see and once it''s in front of them ... nope!


Definition of "eye clean" ... I stand in agreement with my compadres here but would add the following ...


The most important defintion is the one that the person who is purchasing assigns to it which is why it is wise to ask.

I''ll never forget the following conversation...
Customer: Is the diamond "eye clean"?
Vendor: "Yes it is! It''s a GIA lab graded VS2."

A week goes by, the ring is made and the diamond set ...

Customer: "I got the ring and it is lovely, HOWEVER I see inclusions when I tilt the diamond upside down! You told me the diamond was "eye clean"! I want my money back!
Vendor: But ...
Customer: NO BUTS ABOUT IT ... I WANT MY MONEY BACK!
Vendor: But the definition of eye clean is when you hold the diamond up approx. 12 inches and observed in the face up position.
Customer: That may be YOUR definition but it certainly isn''t mine.

Has this happened to any of ya''ll? If it hasn''t ... it will eventually.
14.gif


 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top