Dear waterlilly

[Puppmom]

It sucks that this thread has become so hostile. I truly believe that none of the people here are the problem. We''re NOT the reason dogs end up in shelters. We all have in common that we adore our pets and I''m sure that''s why we all get so worked up on the subject.

I don''t want to sound like Polly Positive or make peace or insinuate that nothing said here has pissed me off but, really, the target audience for all of our preaching is not reading this thread.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 7/1/2010 10:56:58 AM
Author: Loves Vintage

Date: 7/1/2010 10:34:32 AM

Author: Hudson_Hawk

Date: 7/1/2010 10:03:36 AM

Author: waterlilly

Date: 7/1/2010 8:52:28 AM


Author: Hudson_Hawk

Date: 7/1/2010 7:34:37 AM



Author: waterlilly



Regardless of the euthanasia aspect, you can''t deny that shelters are often a destination for bully breeds. And as also noted, not all triggers are found during standard screening by shelters. And the fact that 58% of the 2000 dogs noted above were euthanized pit bulls, one can reasonably assume that they had psychological or aggression problems.

One can only assume. THIS IS MY POINT. You obviously have no idea what goes on in shelters or dog rescue. That assumption is dead (no pun intended, obviously) wrong.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Waterlily and LV, this discussion is going nowhere polite and I''d REALLY prefer to not get blasted for telling you what I really think so I''m going to agree to disagree and bow out now. I''ve voiced my opinions and argued my points over and over and over again, but you continue to judge and belittle those of us who don''t bow down at your wise and oh so authoritative views on the subject. This is clearly not something that can be resolved because you REFUSE to accept that other people have valid opinions that differ from yours.

Rising Sun just said what I''m trying to say much more eloquently.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/1/2010 9:40:35 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
I must admit that while I support my local breed rescue club, I am MORE supportive of great breeders because I think they do more for dogs than shelters. Shelters have their place, but they also enable BYB and puppy mills by taking in their ''unwanted'' dogs. When I used to volunteer at a shelter in the midwest, I would have people come in talking about how much they hated BYBs and puppy mills and wanted to adopt an unwanted dog, but often times the dog they adopted was from some scumbag BYB who couldn''t find a home for his dogs and left them at the shelter.

ETA: I''ve said it before and I''ll say it again. A reputable breeder will make you sign a contract stating that you can never, under any circumstances, allow one of their dogs to go to a shelter. If a dog must be rehomed, it goes back to the breeder so that the breeder can screen the new owner in ways a shelter won''t. And often times breeders place these dogs free of cost. That is a practice I''m much more supportive of.

Many people have no idea what ethical breeder to for their dogs and their breeds. It''s nice to hear someone give them the credit that they deserve. Ethical breeders do not have unwanted dogs and their litters are generally placed before they are born. Give credit where it is due.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:10:08 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
Waterlily and LV, this discussion is going nowhere polite and I'd REALLY prefer to not get blasted for telling you what I really think so I'm going to agree to disagree and bow out now. I've voiced my opinions and argued my points over and over and over again, but you continue to judge and belittle those of us who don't bow down at your wise and oh so authoritative views on the subject. This is clearly not something that can be resolved because you REFUSE to accept that other people have valid opinions that differ from yours.

Rising Sun just said what I'm trying to say much more eloquently.

You're obviously feeling a bit emotional about this issue, HH. I did not say anything remotely judgmental or belittling to you, unless you consider my statement that your logic was faulty somehow belittling. It certainly was not intended to be. And, honestly, I've heard you say much, much worse here. Seriously.

So, you think the reason that most pit bulls are euthanized is "for psychological or agression problems", yet you also think there are reasons for euthanasia other than aggression, so you agree with me, yet you also want to agree to disagree with me. Ohh-kay. Yeah, maybe step away from the thread for a while?

ETA: I also acknowledged in my post that it is a person's choice whether to buy or adopt. I would never suggest to you that your choice is right or wrong. Of course, I know people IRL, who purchase their dogs from reputable breeders, pet shops and backyard breeders. I do not say anything to them. I smile and dote upon their beautiful dogs. I have no desire to judge these people in their presence or to make them feel bad for their choices. Their choices are their own.

 

[Haven]

Date: 7/1/2010 7:34:37 AM
Author: waterlilly
Haven: 'I'd much rather see people get dogs from reputable breeders when they know they aren't going to be able to really give a shelter dog the structure, rehabilitation, training, everything else that he is going to need. I think it takes an extremely committed owner to adopt a shelter dog with aggression issues, and unfortunately, so many shelter dogs HAVE aggression issues. That's just not what everyone wants to sign up for when they adopt a dog, and that is OKAY.'

Really, so many shelter dogs have aggression issues? Again, I'll ask - how many dogs have you rescued that you are basing that statement on?? What shelter do you know of has money to spend housing dogs that are a potential liability or just outright aggressive? Please, a starving bag of bones dog that makes the slightest lip curl when someone tests its reaction to a hand being stuck in the first bowl of food it's had in weeks - euthanized.

I'm baffled.

waterlilly,

I never said that most dogs in shelters are "outright aggressive" as you put it. I did say that 90% of the dogs that I see in the shelters where I volunteer have aggression issues. I hope you don't really believe that a dog who is "a starving bag of bones dog that makes the slightest lip curl when someone tests its reaction to a hand being stuck in the first bowl of food it's had in weeks" is the only type of aggressive dog out there.

My dog came home with aggression issues, but they were on the other end of the spectrum as your example, and an inexperienced dog owner probably wouldn't have even realized that she had aggression issues at all. She was affectionate and calm in the shelter, and she got along with her cage mates and all of the cats in the cat room. On one of our walks before we adopted her she got into a little tiff with another dog on a leash, a sort of growling and attempted biting interaction. She repeated this with other dogs once we were home. Over time we learned that she becomes aggressive with dogs that are also aggressive, or insecure, meaning scared, timid, or a variety of other states.

I believe this is an important point for this discussion: Aggressive dog behavior exists on a spectrum, and not all aggressive dogs will exhibit aggressive behavior in every situation. This becomes an especially important point to realize when you become involved in the adoption process for shelter dogs. My dog, who is a joy and a love and has brought more positive things into my life than I can ever explain in words, was returned by another family before we adopted her. This family told the shelter it was because they were divorcing, but I'd bet that it was really because they didn't truly know what they were getting into when they adopted her. She is not the kind of dog that you can just take for a walk twice a day or bring to the dog park and everything will be fine. She needs structure and training and it took us a very long time of working with her before we could safely bring her to the dog beach to swim. She didn't appear aggressive in the shelter, and by your response, it sounds like you wouldn't label her as aggressive. But she is. And she needs owners who are willing to really work with her on these issues so she can live a balanced life.

The amount of dogs I've adopted is not important, here. I work in shelters and I work with the dogs (and cats) on a weekly basis. I train the dogs to walk on a leash. I help figure out which dogs get along well enough to become cage mates. I bring them out into the public and try to find homes for them.

As for your question regarding shelters spending money on housing dogs that are a potential liability--the four shelters I work with ALL house dogs that have aggression issues. As I said earlier, these issues fall on a spectrum. Some are easier to spot, and others, not so much. But if we start adopting dogs to families who aren't able or willing to help their dogs achieve balance, then we're doing the dogs a disservice, and we're perpetuating people's negative perception of shelter dogs.

It doesn't seem like you realize this, but everyone responding in this thread is an animal lover. It is okay to have different opinions about breeders and shelters, and I imagine that different areas have different dog populations in their shelters.

On an unrelated note: I don't know you at all from PS, but I think that people would be more likely to really listen to what you have to say if you wrote your responses in a calm, rational tone.

ETA: I meant to write that it is OKAY to have different opinions about certain issues. I know that my purpose is never to convert people into believing what I believe. Minus all of the aggressive posts, I think discussions like this are healthy and raise awareness by showing people different perspectives. We do not all have to agree with each other.

 

[charbie]

I''m sorry, but I have the need to make a comment.

I have two dogs- 1 we fostered/adopted, the other from the shelter. Both were raised from puppyhood-on. However, I grew up with a chocolate lab who came from a well-known breeder in our area. When I wanted a dog, my husband and I discussed getting a lab from the same breeder who bred Ghirardelli, the precious dog I grew up with.

I wanted a dog from that breeder, because I knew I would have a LAB- not a dog who may not have all the features of a LAB that I wanted. People want certain dogs for their certain breed traits- when getting a dog from a shelter OR EVEN A FOSTER PUPPY- you may end up with something else. Excuse me if I''m wrong, but isn''t that the RESPONSIBLE thing to do? Get a dog who has the traits you have studied up on, so that you can best handle that dog?

In the end, I did end up fostering to adopt a dog. He was reported to be a chocolate lab. This dog is NOT 100% lab. His coat varies in color, and his face is pretty obvious NOT to be a full lab. He was born on a farm to a lab mother, and then we received him at 8 weeks. I''m sure he''s part lab, but not full. It''s ok, but not knowing exactly what he is makes me a bit anxious at times, because if he does have a breed with different traits that I should handle differently, well, as his mother

i want to know!

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:03:31 AM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/1/2010 8:18:49 AM

Author: Brown.Eyed.Girl

Waterlily, I respect and admire you for your love and defense of animals, especially shelter animals. I think it's very apparent that you really care for animals, and I definitely can't fault you for wanting to defend adoption is the better? best? option.


However, I think the WAY you defend your position doesn't necessarily help it, y'know? Attacking people for the choices they have already made in regard to their own beloved pets and members of the family isn't going to convert anyone to your cause.


And with that said, I think NO ONE here is saying that adoption is a bad option. I think everyone on this thread is an animal lover, and in all of our perfect worlds, strays wouldn't exist because ALL animals would have loving, caring homes. BUT adoption isn't for everyone. Different strokes for different folks. And I don't think people who buyer from reputable breeders should be castigated for their choice (now someone buying from/supporting/running a puppy mill or ignorant backyard breeding - TOTALLY different case, and those people SHOULD be castigated).


There are perfectly legitimate reasons for buying from reputable breeders. People want to show and breed, or people want a specific breed, because they have allergies, or size constraints, or want characteristics that tend to run strongly in Breed A versus Breed B. That's their choice, just as it is your choice to adopt from shelters. I don't get all this acrimony here.


And I will admit I am biased - I have two purebred Bengal cats, I grew up with a Chihuahua (though we got him from, I think, one of those couples who didn't think to neuter/spay their dogs - he was neurotic for sure but the best dog ever), and my mom got purebred Chihuahua puppies this time around because she wanted to stay with the breed.

I respect the work that you do. I cannot respect the attitude you have toward others who have made different choices. You are not entitled to make decisions for others or to berate them for it.

Sorry, attitude? Berating people? I honestly am baffled at how people are twisting words and acting like victims for being asked to back up things they have said or being questioned for making statements that have no truth.

How many times can I say - I don't care where someone gets their dog & I have no problem with REAL breeders?

I have not said "I adopt because breeders are a bad option because of xyz..."

But plenty of people have said "I bought because adopting is a bad option because of xyz.."

If you feel the need to defend your decision to buy a dog, don't do it by denigrating adoption with made up reasons.

 

[Haven]

waterlilly--It isn''t WHAT you are saying, it''s HOW you are saying it. We call it "tone" in my English classes. Your passion for this issue is wonderful, and I imagine that it is your passion that is driving your posts, but once you have some time to calm down and walk away from this thread for a while, you will (hopefully) be able to see what people are talking about when they address the fact that you sound angry and defensive.

I didn''t mean this post to be snarky in any way. I''m simply trying to explain. I have a feeling that it is going to be taken the wrong way, but that''s definitely not my intent.

 

[ForteKitty]

threadjack... but somewhat related since backyard breeding was discussed.

My grandma's neighbor from around the corner breeds his 3 siamese cats, then sells the kittens. have done it for years. we have reported him, but nothing they can do.

A month and a half ago, my cousin found the momma 4 big blocks away, across a major street too. (she has tags) She was sick, dehydrated, and passed out on the floor. these stupid kids were poking her with a stick and attempting to kick her, so she picked her up and brought her home. (we believe he dropped her off to be rid of her because that cat never leaves the front lawn)

Three weeks later, she gave birth to a ball of kittens. all the cords were tightly knotted, and it looked like a ball of yarn w/ kittens attached. 8 kittens! My mom had to rush to cut the cords off the kittens, and some were cut so close to the belly we were afraid they wouldn't stop bleeding. two kittens had cords tightly wrapped around their legs.

They are now 2.5 weeks old, and very very cute. one with the wrapped cord will need to have his foot amputated. it's black and shriveled up. he's also the runt so we have to make sure we help him feed otherwise he gets pushed out by the bigger ones. the other one still has a slightly swollen foot, but he's healthy otherwise and he walks on it.

We now have 5 siamese kittens, 2 black (kinda reverse siamese pattern w/ slightly white face and legs), and one grey tabby. We found homes for the siamese and grey kittens already. The new owners will sign a contract promising to fix them and to keep them as strictly indoor cats, as there are coyotes around here. The black ones still need homes. Anyone in the LA area? I can't keep any more.. we already have 12 cats at home.

Sorry for my rambling... Point of this? backyard breeders like that deserve to be punished. Getting his balls removed is a good start. but since that's not legal, any suggestions on what to do with people like that? We have also seen guys selling chihuahua puppies out of a box for $40...

 

[lyra]

I do think this thread has gotten to the point of preaching to the choir, sorry. Waterlily, bless you for the work you do, it must be heartbreaking. One of my breeder friends worked for many years for the SPCA, and it really burnt her out in the end. She was the most clinical person I have ever known, but year after year, it takes it''s toll. I wish there was a solution out there, but I don''t think people would go for it anyway. We can try to educate as best we can. We can love and train the animals that come into our lives, in whatever manner the do, as best we can. The problem lies with the people who abandon their pets, the puppy mills and backyard breeders, and no one here is any of those things. Most everyone on PS has adopted at least one pet, and that is great. Everyone on PS loves their pets and firmly commit to lifetime relationships with their chosen pets. So many other people do not, and that is the problem. Take care.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:52:01 AM
Author: lyra
I do think this thread has gotten to the point of preaching to the choir, sorry. Waterlily, bless you for the work you do, it must be heartbreaking. One of my breeder friends worked for many years for the SPCA, and it really burnt her out in the end. She was the most clinical person I have ever known, but year after year, it takes it's toll. I wish there was a solution out there, but I don't think people would go for it anyway. We can try to educate as best we can. We can love and train the animals that come into our lives, in whatever manner the do, as best we can. The problem lies with the people who abandon their pets, the puppy mills and backyard breeders, and no one here is any of those things. Most everyone on PS has adopted at least one pet, and that is great. Everyone on PS loves their pets and firmly commit to lifetime relationships with their chosen pets. So many other people do not, and that is the problem. Take care.

Thanks, yes, it's heartbreaking every day. The most heartbreaking part is how many perfect - absolutely perfect - dogs are euthanized simply because there is no time or money left to house them. I can't stand to hear people make statements suggesting that those dogs are somehow faulty or perpetuate the myth that the best way to get a good dog is to purchase one.

 

[Laila619]

Haven, those kitties sure love you!

I am saddened that in this day and age, so many people are still apparently buying animals fron breeders instead of giving homes to all the needy and homeless shelter and stray pets.

Why do some people still falsely think purebreeds are better?

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:41:52 AM
Author: ForteKitty
threadjack... but somewhat related since backyard breeding was discussed.

My grandma's neighbor from around the corner breeds his 3 siamese cats, then sells the kittens. have done it for years. we have reported him, but nothing they can do.

A month and a half ago, my cousin found the momma 4 big blocks away, across a major street too. (she has tags) She was sick, dehydrated, and passed out on the floor. these stupid kids were poking her with a stick and attempting to kick her, so she picked her up and brought her home. (we believe he dropped her off to be rid of her because that cat never leaves the front lawn)

Three weeks later, she gave birth to a ball of kittens. all the cords were tightly knotted, and it looked like a ball of yarn w/ kittens attached. 8 kittens! My mom had to rush to cut the cords off the kittens, and some were cut so close to the belly we were afraid they wouldn't stop bleeding. two kittens had cords tightly wrapped around their legs.

They are now 2.5 weeks old, and very very cute. one with the wrapped cord will need to have his foot amputated. it's black and shriveled up. he's also the runt so we have to make sure we help him feed otherwise he gets pushed out by the bigger ones. the other one still has a slightly swollen foot, but he's healthy otherwise and he walks on it.

We now have 5 siamese kittens, 2 black (kinda reverse siamese pattern w/ slightly white face and legs), and one grey tabby. We found homes for the siamese and grey kittens already. The new owners will sign a contract promising to fix them and to keep them as strictly indoor cats, as there are coyotes around here. The black ones still need homes. Anyone in the LA area? I can't keep any more.. we already have 12 cats at home.

Sorry for my rambling... Point of this? backyard breeders like that deserve to be punished. Getting his balls removed is a good start. but since that's not legal, any suggestions on what to do with people like that? We have also seen guys selling chihuahua puppies out of a box for $40...

ForteKitty - Definitely start a new thread for these babies! You will get more a response if they have their own thread and some photos. There are quite a few posters here from LA, so maybe they can offer some advice.

Thank you to you and your mom for savings these babies and their momma. And, wow to 12 cats? Are they all yours, or some fosters?

 

[lilyfoot]

Date: 7/1/2010 12:00:00 PM
Author: Laila619
Haven, those kitties sure love you!

I am saddened that in this day and age, so many people are still apparently buying animals fron breeders instead of giving homes to all the needy and homeless shelter and stray pets.

Why do some people still falsely think purebreeds are better?

I understand that some people go to breeders specifically because they do think purebreds are better than mixed breeds (which of course, isn't a fact), but that is not the only reason why somebody would choose not to adopt a shelter or rescue animal (and go with a breeder instead). There are plenty of purebreds in shelters and rescues, and even some of those so-called "designer" breeds, should that be their fancy.

I own both a purebred and a mix-breed dog, and I think they're both great

 

[Prana]

Date: 7/1/2010 12:24:20 PM
Author: lilyfoot

Date: 7/1/2010 12:00:00 PM
Author: Laila619
Haven, those kitties sure love you!

I am saddened that in this day and age, so many people are still apparently buying animals fron breeders instead of giving homes to all the needy and homeless shelter and stray pets.

Why do some people still falsely think purebreeds are better?

I understand that some people go to breeders specifically because they do think purebreds are better than mixed breeds (which of course, isn''t a fact), but that is not the only reason why somebody would choose not to adopt a shelter or rescue animal (and go with a breeder instead). There are plenty of purebreds in shelters and rescues, and even some of those so-called ''designer'' breeds, should that be their fancy.

I own both a purebred and a mix-breed dog, and I think they''re both great

I can speak for myself here. We wanted an American Bulldog based off of the traits of the breed. Sure I can go get an American Bulldog from a shelter, but where is the proof that he is a purebreed? I can pretty much guarantee that it won''t be a pedigree. How do I know what health issues may have been passed down to him? How do I know?

We wanted to know these things. It was important to us. Just because we got our dog from a reputable breeder doesn''t mean he won''t have any problems, but it certainly takes the guess work out of figuring stuff out. Dogs are not all the same. Different dogs have different personality traits. We wanted a dog with certain personality traits, American Bulldogs fit our bill. American bulldogs are also prone to hip dysplasia, which can be almost non-existent if the line of breeding is good. They are also prone to dog aggression and being very territorial. We didin''t want our dog to suffer those problems if we could avoid it. Our breeder was able to show us pictures of all of Boris''s ancestors, and tell us how old they were when they passed, what their temperments were like, etc. So we have a decent idea of what to expect from our dog.

With a shelter dog, you really don''t know. You cannot prove that it is a purebreed, therefore, you are risking personality traits that may not be compatible with you and your lifestyle.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 7/1/2010 12:24:20 PM
Author: lilyfoot

Date: 7/1/2010 12:00:00 PM
Author: Laila619
Haven, those kitties sure love you!

I am saddened that in this day and age, so many people are still apparently buying animals fron breeders instead of giving homes to all the needy and homeless shelter and stray pets.

Why do some people still falsely think purebreeds are better?

I understand that some people go to breeders specifically because they do think purebreds are better than mixed breeds (which of course, isn''t a fact), but that is not the only reason why somebody would choose not to adopt a shelter or rescue animal (and go with a breeder instead). There are plenty of purebreds in shelters and rescues, and even some of those so-called ''designer'' breeds, should that be their fancy.

I own both a purebred and a mix-breed dog, and I think they''re both great

I agree with Lilyfoot.

Laila, some people MAY decide to buy a dog from a breeder because they feel that purebreds are somehow "better" than mixed-breeds. But in my experience, that hasn''t been the case. It''s just that the prospective owner knows which breed tends to have the characteristics that best fit his/her family, and wants to optimize the chances that they will in fact get a dog with those desireable (to them) characteristics.

Just an example of this kind of thinking: Maybe your family is very water-loving, really enjoys water sports, and lives near a body of water. Also, maybe you have small children and you want a dog who is very child-friendly. And maybe you want a dog who will be somewhat intimidating and make a lot of noise if someone tries to break into your house. In that scenario, you might decide to get a lab since most labs love water, love kids, and hate intruders!

Since most breeds have breed-specific traits that are usually found in dogs of that particular breed, buying a purebred dog is just one way to increase the chances that you''re getting a dog that will work well with your family. It''s not that the purebred dog is "better" than the mixed-breed dog . . . it''s just that it''s often easier to know what you''re getting with a purebred.

 

[charbie]

Date: 7/1/2010 12:57:20 PM
Author: girlface

Date: 7/1/2010 12:24:20 PM
Author: lilyfoot

Date: 7/1/2010 12:00:00 PM
Author: Laila619
Haven, those kitties sure love you!

I am saddened that in this day and age, so many people are still apparently buying animals fron breeders instead of giving homes to all the needy and homeless shelter and stray pets.

Why do some people still falsely think purebreeds are better?

I understand that some people go to breeders specifically because they do think purebreds are better than mixed breeds (which of course, isn''t a fact), but that is not the only reason why somebody would choose not to adopt a shelter or rescue animal (and go with a breeder instead). There are plenty of purebreds in shelters and rescues, and even some of those so-called ''designer'' breeds, should that be their fancy.

I own both a purebred and a mix-breed dog, and I think they''re both great

I can speak for myself here. We wanted an American Bulldog based off of the traits of the breed. Sure I can go get an American Bulldog from a shelter, but where is the proof that he is a purebreed? I can pretty much guarantee that it won''t be a pedigree. How do I know what health issues may have been passed down to him? How do I know?

We wanted to know these things. It was important to us. Just because we got our dog from a reputable breeder doesn''t mean he won''t have any problems, but it certainly takes the guess work out of figuring stuff out. Dogs are not all the same. Different dogs have different personality traits. We wanted a dog with certain personality traits, American Bulldogs fit our bill. American bulldogs are also prone to hip dysplasia, which can be almost non-existent if the line of breeding is good. They are also prone to dog aggression and being very territorial. We didin''t want our dog to suffer those problems if we could avoid it. Our breeder was able to show us pictures of all of Boris''s ancestors, and tell us how old they were when they passed, what their temperments were like, etc. So we have a decent idea of what to expect from our dog.

With a shelter dog, you really don''t know. You cannot prove that it is a purebreed, therefore, you are risking personality traits that may not be compatible with you and your lifestyle.

I will quote myself from earlier in the page:

I wanted a dog from that breeder, because I knew I would have a LAB- not a dog who may not have all the features of a LAB that I wanted. People want certain dogs for their certain breed traits- when getting a dog from a shelter OR EVEN A FOSTER PUPPY- you may end up with something else. Excuse me if I''m wrong, but isn''t that the RESPONSIBLE thing to do? Get a dog who has the traits you have studied up on, so that you can best handle that dog?

In the end, I did end up fostering to adopt a dog. He was reported to be a chocolate lab. This dog is NOT 100% lab. His coat varies in color, and his face is pretty obvious NOT to be a full lab. He was born on a farm to a lab mother, and then we received him at 8 weeks. I''m sure he''s part lab, but not full. It''s ok, but not knowing exactly what he is makes me a bit anxious at times, because if he does have a breed with different traits that I should handle differently, well, as his mother i want to know!

 

[Bunny007]

In all fairness, OP started a thread, directed only to Lilyfoot, and the content was dripping with sarcasm and thinly-veiled hostility. If that wasn''t intended to provoke hostility from Lilyfoot in return, then I don''t understand its purpose. I think she''s handled herself fine, considering.

 

[Puppmom]

Date: 7/1/2010 12:58:08 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 7/1/2010 12:24:20 PM
Author: lilyfoot

Date: 7/1/2010 12:00:00 PM
Author: Laila619
Haven, those kitties sure love you!

I am saddened that in this day and age, so many people are still apparently buying animals fron breeders instead of giving homes to all the needy and homeless shelter and stray pets.

Why do some people still falsely think purebreeds are better?

I understand that some people go to breeders specifically because they do think purebreds are better than mixed breeds (which of course, isn''t a fact), but that is not the only reason why somebody would choose not to adopt a shelter or rescue animal (and go with a breeder instead). There are plenty of purebreds in shelters and rescues, and even some of those so-called ''designer'' breeds, should that be their fancy.

I own both a purebred and a mix-breed dog, and I think they''re both great

I agree with Lilyfoot.

Laila, some people MAY decide to buy a dog from a breeder because they feel that purebreds are somehow ''better'' than mixed-breeds. But in my experience, that hasn''t been the case. It''s just that the prospective owner knows which breed tends to have the characteristics that best fit his/her family, and wants to optimize the chances that they will in fact get a dog with those desireable (to them) characteristics.

Just an example of this kind of thinking: Maybe your family is very water-loving, really enjoys water sports, and lives near a body of water. Also, maybe you have small children and you want a dog who is very child-friendly. And maybe you want a dog who will be somewhat intimidating and make a lot of noise if someone tries to break into your house. In that scenario, you might decide to get a lab since most labs love water, love kids, and hate intruders!

Since most breeds have breed-specific traits that are usually found in dogs of that particular breed, buying a purebred dog is just one way to increase the chances that you''re getting a dog that will work well with your family. It''s not that the purebred dog is ''better'' than the mixed-breed dog . . . it''s just that it''s often easier to know what you''re getting with a purebred.

I just have to laugh at myself here for a minute, Irishgrrrl. We went with a breeder for a few reasons, one of which was the fact that we LOVED the specific breed. We did a ton of research trying to figure out what breed of dog was right for us, spending over a year visiting breeders, bench shows and just researching breeds in general. Well, my dog is the ANTI-Rhodesian Ridgeback. He has a sensitive stomach, he''s scared of everything, his pads are super sensitive, he''s not destructive and doesn''t dig and he''s pretty passive. Go figure...we love him anyway.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 7/1/2010 1:13:57 PM
Author: charbie

Date: 7/1/2010 12:57:20 PM

Author: girlface

Date: 7/1/2010 12:24:20 PM

Author: lilyfoot

Date: 7/1/2010 12:00:00 PM

Author: Laila619

Haven, those kitties sure love you!


I am saddened that in this day and age, so many people are still apparently buying animals fron breeders instead of giving homes to all the needy and homeless shelter and stray pets.

Why do some people still falsely think purebreeds are better?

I understand that some people go to breeders specifically because they do think purebreds are better than mixed breeds (which of course, isn't a fact), but that is not the only reason why somebody would choose not to adopt a shelter or rescue animal (and go with a breeder instead). There are plenty of purebreds in shelters and rescues, and even some of those so-called 'designer' breeds, should that be their fancy.


I own both a purebred and a mix-breed dog, and I think they're both great

I can speak for myself here. We wanted an American Bulldog based off of the traits of the breed. Sure I can go get an American Bulldog from a shelter, but where is the proof that he is a purebreed? I can pretty much guarantee that it won't be a pedigree. How do I know what health issues may have been passed down to him? How do I know?


We wanted to know these things. It was important to us. Just because we got our dog from a reputable breeder doesn't mean he won't have any problems, but it certainly takes the guess work out of figuring stuff out. Dogs are not all the same. Different dogs have different personality traits. We wanted a dog with certain personality traits, American Bulldogs fit our bill. American bulldogs are also prone to hip dysplasia, which can be almost non-existent if the line of breeding is good. They are also prone to dog aggression and being very territorial. We didin't want our dog to suffer those problems if we could avoid it. Our breeder was able to show us pictures of all of Boris's ancestors, and tell us how old they were when they passed, what their temperments were like, etc. So we have a decent idea of what to expect from our dog.


With a shelter dog, you really don't know. You cannot prove that it is a purebreed, therefore, you are risking personality traits that may not be compatible with you and your lifestyle.

I will quote myself from earlier in the page:



I wanted a dog from that breeder, because I knew I would have a LAB- not a dog who may not have all the features of a LAB that I wanted. People want certain dogs for their certain breed traits- when getting a dog from a shelter OR EVEN A FOSTER PUPPY- you may end up with something else. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the RESPONSIBLE thing to do? Get a dog who has the traits you have studied up on, so that you can best handle that dog?

In the end, I did end up fostering to adopt a dog. He was reported to be a chocolate lab. This dog is NOT 100% lab. His coat varies in color, and his face is pretty obvious NOT to be a full lab. He was born on a farm to a lab mother, and then we received him at 8 weeks. I'm sure he's part lab, but not full. It's ok, but not knowing exactly what he is makes me a bit anxious at times, because if he does have a breed with different traits that I should handle differently, well, as his mother i want to know!

I don't think you have any reason to be anxious. You've had him long enough to know his personality, right? Whether a certain behavior comes from being a particular breed or just an individual trait - behaviors are behaviors and not dealt with differently because your dog is of a particular breed. Even dogs of the same breed displaying the same behaviors may need to be approached differently - it's all about the individual, not the breed. It might give insight about where the behaviors come from, but it's not going to help you respond to them differently...does that make sense? Breed vs. breed vs. breed - it's still a dog.

For example: Most bullies require very strong leadership - because typically they display a very head strong personality, not just because they are bullies...KNIM?

Because a breed has typical traits, that doesn't mean you automatically treat them as if they are expressing those traits. If I have a very soft Pittie, I treat him softly, I don't go strong with him just because he's a Pit. At the same time, if I had a Golden Retriever that tried to throw his weight around - I wouldn't go soft on him because he's supposed to be a happy go lucky Golden.

Anyway, hope that made sense!

 

[lilyfoot]

Date: 7/1/2010 1:25:35 PM
Author: Bunny007
In all fairness, OP started a thread, directed only to Lilyfoot, and the content was dripping with sarcasm and thinly-veiled hostility. If that wasn''t intended to provoke hostility from Lilyfoot in return, then I don''t understand its purpose. I think she''s handled herself fine, considering.

Heeeey, how''d my name get in there?! I don''t think girlface could ever have hostility towards me, nor I towards her, I mush and gush over her gorgeous puppy too much

It''s waterlily, not me!

 

[Bunny007]

Ohhhh sorry Lilyfoot! I knew it was some kind of Lily. I guess my neurons are misfiring today.

 

[partgypsy]

Yes Waterlily, that''s what gets me, how many great animals (without issues) there are out there in the shelters, that don''t even have a chance at adoption at good dog owners, and again I feel because of preconceptions of what adopted dogs are like. Studies have shown that mixed breed dogs are often healthier and better temperment- wise than purebreeds due to hybrid vigor. But, people often get purebreeds because they feel they have more control, over personality, health, but that can be an illusion. Our dog stylist got a pure bred standard poodle, pedigreed, was breeding it, but then it developed severe seizures.

And I really wish people would stop picking on Waterlily. Please remember this all started with an obnoxious post by girlface in CAPS (ALA YELLING), which evolved to her starting a specific post to Waterlilly calling her out with quotes "You are the ignorant one."
Her dog may not have agression issues but she seems to.

 

[Prana]

This thread was started for Waterlilly, not Lillyfoot.


I''m glad that it sparked the conversations that ensued.

And yes, I wlil call someone out who calls me ignorant without having the whole story. The only sarcasm I see in my original post is the first line. The rest is an explanation referring back to the posts in the other thread, as well as some clarification. I wrongly called Waterlilly ignorant, and quickly apologized. Not exactly sure where you see hostility?

 

[lilyfoot]

Date: 7/1/2010 2:01:52 PM
Author: Bunny007
Ohhhh sorry Lilyfoot! I knew it was some kind of Lily. I guess my neurons are misfiring today.

Eh, it''s alright

 

[Prana]

Date: 7/1/2010 2:03:57 PM
Author: part gypsy
Yes Waterlily, that''s what gets me, how many great animals (without issues) there are out there in the shelters, that don''t even have a chance at adoption at good dog owners, and again I feel because of preconceptions of what adopted dogs are like. Studies have shown that mixed breed dogs are often healthier and better temperment- wise than purebreeds due to hybrid vigor. But, people often get purebreeds because they feel they have more control, over personality, health, but that can be an illusion. Our dog stylist got a pure bred standard poodle, pedigreed, was breeding it, but then it developed severe seizures.

And I really wish people would stop picking on Waterlily. Please remember this all started with an obnoxious post by girlface in CAPS (ALA YELLING), which evolved to her starting a specific post to Waterlilly calling her out with quotes ''You are the ignorant one.''
Her dog may not have agression issues but she seems to.

I''ve posted responses to clarify my original post, as it has been clearly misconstrued. I''m not sure where I''ve come across as aggressive, but would appreciate it if you could point it out to me so that I can type differently. And yes, I did originally call Waterlilly ignorant, and upon realizing that I was wrong, apologized, and clearly stated that I was not in the right to have done that. I''m not really sure what else to say. I''ve tried to clarify how my original post was intended, even if that''s not how it came out.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 7/1/2010 1:27:12 PM
Author: puppmom

Date: 7/1/2010 12:58:08 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

I agree with Lilyfoot.

Laila, some people MAY decide to buy a dog from a breeder because they feel that purebreds are somehow ''better'' than mixed-breeds. But in my experience, that hasn''t been the case. It''s just that the prospective owner knows which breed tends to have the characteristics that best fit his/her family, and wants to optimize the chances that they will in fact get a dog with those desireable (to them) characteristics.

Just an example of this kind of thinking: Maybe your family is very water-loving, really enjoys water sports, and lives near a body of water. Also, maybe you have small children and you want a dog who is very child-friendly. And maybe you want a dog who will be somewhat intimidating and make a lot of noise if someone tries to break into your house. In that scenario, you might decide to get a lab since most labs love water, love kids, and hate intruders!

Since most breeds have breed-specific traits that are usually found in dogs of that particular breed, buying a purebred dog is just one way to increase the chances that you''re getting a dog that will work well with your family. It''s not that the purebred dog is ''better'' than the mixed-breed dog . . . it''s just that it''s often easier to know what you''re getting with a purebred.

I just have to laugh at myself here for a minute, Irishgrrrl. We went with a breeder for a few reasons, one of which was the fact that we LOVED the specific breed. We did a ton of research trying to figure out what breed of dog was right for us, spending over a year visiting breeders, bench shows and just researching breeds in general. Well, my dog is the ANTI-Rhodesian Ridgeback. He has a sensitive stomach, he''s scared of everything, his pads are super sensitive, he''s not destructive and doesn''t dig and he''s pretty passive. Go figure...we love him anyway.

HA! Puppmom, I feel your pain! Frenchies are supposed to weigh about 28 pounds or less when they''re full-grown, and they supposedly don''t like to play fetch. Of course, we wound up with a 40 pound Frenchie who would fetch all day long if you let him! LOL!

And our oldest is a mixed-breed who we *think* is part black lab and part pit bull. Well, he''s a big love bug! If a burglar broke into our house, he''d probably lick the burglar to death!

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:34:09 AM
Author: waterlilly

Date: 7/1/2010 11:03:31 AM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/1/2010 8:18:49 AM

Author: Brown.Eyed.Girl

Waterlily, I respect and admire you for your love and defense of animals, especially shelter animals. I think it''s very apparent that you really care for animals, and I definitely can''t fault you for wanting to defend adoption is the better? best? option.


However, I think the WAY you defend your position doesn''t necessarily help it, y''know? Attacking people for the choices they have already made in regard to their own beloved pets and members of the family isn''t going to convert anyone to your cause.


And with that said, I think NO ONE here is saying that adoption is a bad option. I think everyone on this thread is an animal lover, and in all of our perfect worlds, strays wouldn''t exist because ALL animals would have loving, caring homes. BUT adoption isn''t for everyone. Different strokes for different folks. And I don''t think people who buyer from reputable breeders should be castigated for their choice (now someone buying from/supporting/running a puppy mill or ignorant backyard breeding - TOTALLY different case, and those people SHOULD be castigated).


There are perfectly legitimate reasons for buying from reputable breeders. People want to show and breed, or people want a specific breed, because they have allergies, or size constraints, or want characteristics that tend to run strongly in Breed A versus Breed B. That''s their choice, just as it is your choice to adopt from shelters. I don''t get all this acrimony here.


And I will admit I am biased - I have two purebred Bengal cats, I grew up with a Chihuahua (though we got him from, I think, one of those couples who didn''t think to neuter/spay their dogs - he was neurotic for sure but the best dog ever), and my mom got purebred Chihuahua puppies this time around because she wanted to stay with the breed.

I respect the work that you do. I cannot respect the attitude you have toward others who have made different choices. You are not entitled to make decisions for others or to berate them for it.

Sorry, attitude? Berating people? I honestly am baffled at how people are twisting words and acting like victims for being asked to back up things they have said or being questioned for making statements that have no truth.

How many times can I say - I don''t care where someone gets their dog & I have no problem with REAL breeders?

I have not said ''I adopt because breeders are a bad option because of xyz...''

But plenty of people have said ''I bought because adopting is a bad option because of xyz..''

If you feel the need to defend your decision to buy a dog, don''t do it by denigrating adoption with made up reasons.

"...Pets belong on the list because there is NEVER a reason for anyone to purchase a dog when millions are euthanized yearly. Every age, EVERY breed. Maybe you need to spend some time in a kill shelter and be the one that holds down a few dogs on kill day, you''ll change your mind pretty quickly...."

These are your own words. No one is twisting what you have said. I never said it is wrong to adopt. I have done so in the past. I have no need to defend myself for anything nor am I doing so. The way you have expressed yourself, IMO, does more to hurt than help.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

D.O.G. we joke is a retriever in a chow's body. He has the traits of a chow that we love (loyal, headstrong, etc) but loves our cats (bordering on thinking he is one), loves kids and other dogs, loves people-strangers and friends alike, is lazy and likes to sleep, will try and lick/kiss you to death, loves to be groomed and will let the groomers do just about anything with/to him, he'll fetch, hates thunderstorms and is happy and jolly all around.

In fact, the only thing I can think of that he does NOT like is the scale at the vet's office. It's not even a raised scale, just a mat on the floor. But he refuses to go on it. Poor guy has a complex about his weight.

ETA: he's also very docile and submissive. We observed him with his pack at the breeder's and chose him specifically because of this.