Dear waterlilly

[yssie]

Date: 7/1/2010 2:31:35 AM
Author: Haven
yssie--I understand that you took issue with what I said, but I still think it's true.

I've owned shelter dogs (and cats) my entire life, and I've learned that people who say things like 'My great-aunt Mildred adopted a cat from the shelter and it turned out to be completely psychotic' aren't very likely to be good pet owners at all. I've heard so many 'horror' stories from people who see my dog, ask if she's a Pit mix, and then tell me about their sister's college roommate's father's business partner who adopted a Pit mix that was perfect for three years and then it bit their six-year-old child, so they would NEVER adopt a shelter dog. Frankly, I hope they don't. People like that probably make for horrible dog owners because they don't sound like their really open to truly learning anything about what it really takes to properly raise a dog. It takes work. Shelter or breeder dog alike, they all need regular walks, exercise, discipline, diet, and TIME.

I think there are a lot of horrible breeders out there. I wish that all of those great dog owners who went the breeder route would have adopted shelter dogs because we need more responsible owners to adopt from shelters.

I can't answer how one justifies supporting the breeding of any animal because that is something I would never choose to participate in. However, I don't judge people for doing it. Does it break my heart when I meet a really grade pet owner with a strong breed dog from a breeder? Absolutely. I WISH they would have come in to the shelter and given those dogs a shot. I do. We have so many amazing dogs that just want to be in a good family. But most of them are strong, and they need really dedicated owners.

I have no idea how to solve the problem, so I just keep on going in and volunteering to clean cages, walk the dogs, show them at adoption events, man the fundraisers, cuddle with the kiddies, and I encourage people to check out the shelters before they go to a breeder. I protested the pet store that recently opened in our local mall that got their puppies from a puppy mill. (They've since closed, that's a start.) I'm raising my little Pit mix to be the best behaved dog she can be so every time someone asks me where I got her I can show them how wonderful a shelter dog can be. But really, it's taken a lot of work, and there are just so many people who wouldn't be able to put in the effort. My own mother only walks her dogs every other day, and I feel no end of guilt about that. It's my experience that many dogs in our shelters need strong owners to really help them lead good lives, and unfortunately most of the owners I see out there are just not that great.

I think we agree on the fundamentals Haven. You're obviously a great pet-owner, and the problem truly distresses you. All animals deserve dedicated owners willing to put time and effort into caring for a pet.


To the highlighted part - if someone wants to adopt a certain type, I too wish they would go to the shelters for their first efforts. It may work out, it may not, but I wish they would at least try, that by itself would be a huge step forward.


The best we, as individuals, can do at this point is advise well when asked, clean cages, walk the animals, show the public model examples, man the fundraisers, cuddle the kitties, and protest the puppy mills, like you've said. I sleep well at night knowing I'm making as much of a difference as I can, but it doesn't stop me from wishing that I could do more.

 

[Haven]

I came back to add an ETA that I think we really agree on the basics. Funny that you just said the same thing.

I often feel guilty because the animal shelters distress me so much that I take breaks from my time with them. It''s one of those things that is so heartbreaking to me that sometimes I just cannot face it. But then I know that I need to be in there helping, and so I go back.

The cat room is the hardest place for me. There are literally HUNDREDS of kitties in there, and the minute you sit down they crawl all over you. I feel blissful when I''m there with them and we''re getting good snuggles in, but then when I go to stand up and the realization hits me that I can''t take them home it''s horrible. They''re a band of lovers, those kitties.

 

[yssie]

Yknow, I think I''ve seen that pic on here before!


So sweet

 

[PilsnPinkysMom]

Just wanted to lend some more support. Your pup is HANDSOME! I currently have a shelter dog... quirky and a troublemaker, but still sweet, gentle, loving soul. During the rough days I certainly wish I had a dog that I raised from puppyhood instead of a "teenager" that came with a lot of baggage. I''d lie if I said I never considered going the breeder route, some 14 years from now once Zoey is no longer with us.

My beef is with "backyard breeders" looking to make a quick buck, pet stores, and puppy mills

And because photos make everything better-- Z swimmin'' at the dog pool. She goes a few times a week, on days she doesn''t run. It''s good for her joints! This pup has a better exercise regimen than me

 

[waterlilly]

Girlface: "I truly had no idea that my beautiful dog did not deserve a loving home just because he was not from a shelter." Seriously? This is what you invented from what I wrote? Give me a break.

Question - to you and HH: how many rescued Chow Chow's and Am.Bully's have you had in your home to base your statements on? Thinking that dogs from rescue are mentally and physically unbalanced in some way is a complete myth. It is no more true than the myth that all bully's are viscous dogs.

People buy dogs, people get tired of the dog or the dog gets pregnant with neighbors dog because people are idiots and then they dump them in shelters or surrender them to rescues. People buy dogs and have NO CLUE about what breed they want other than how a dog looks. Bullies, JRT's and huskies are a perfect example - the average home can NOT meet the needs of these breeds. After a few months, dumped.

My USDAA-ADCH Pit X that I rescued at 4 years old with a chain embedded in his neck would beg to differ that you have to have a puppy in order to end up with a well trained dog. Obedience and agility titles can be earned by any dog regardless of breed.

It's obvious people really are (oooh, here comes the word again) ignorant about rescue dogs.

You do realize you can rescue puppies right? Although my favorite dogs to foster are adults, I've got six 9 week old labs coming on Saturday, their mom went to heaven Monday morning. Sweet, goofy, face licking black lab mom. Having dealt with the news of that yesterday - despite making it very clear our rescue would take mother AND pups (in between trying to work my actual job) I probably should have just kept my mouth shut on the other thread knowing it was a bit personal, but I could not help myself.

I don't even comprehend the comment about buying from a breeder so you could train a dog not "re-train" it? How do you retrain a rescued puppy?

Puppies are an ENORMOUS amount of work. You have to put a lot of time and effort in to ANY dog, it has nothing to do with you having purchased your dog from a breeder. If you are inexperienced, it doesn't matter how great a pedigree is - its all about choosing the appropriate breed or mix.

Haven: "I'd much rather see people get dogs from reputable breeders when they know they aren't going to be able to really give a shelter dog the structure, rehabilitation, training, everything else that he is going to need. I think it takes an extremely committed owner to adopt a shelter dog with aggression issues, and unfortunately, so many shelter dogs HAVE aggression issues. That's just not what everyone wants to sign up for when they adopt a dog, and that is OKAY."

Really, so many shelter dogs have aggression issues? Again, I'll ask - how many dogs have you rescued that you are basing that statement on?? What shelter do you know of has money to spend housing dogs that are a potential liability or just outright aggressive? Please, a starving bag of bones dog that makes the slightest lip curl when someone tests its reaction to a hand being stuck in the first bowl of food it's had in weeks - euthanized.

I'm baffled.

Just as people think any dog with a square head and muscular stature is a dangerous "Pit Bull", there are people that think rescue dogs are somehow damaged goods.

Yes, I enjoy taking strange dogs that are dangerous and aggressive and neurotic into my home with my own dogs and cat and exposing them to my family and then adopting them out to unsuspecting people. Its the rush of the "danger" that keeps me and thousands others doing it, yeah that's it.

RESCUES foster their dogs in experienced homes. You know exactly what you are getting if you adopt a dog that has been fostered. Mine have been living with other dogs, a cat, getting top quality food, sleeping in a warm bed, house trained, obedience trained, and probably ready to enter a novice agility trial if I've had it long enough. And when you come along, I'll kiss it goodbye and hide my tears while you happily drive away with it - because I will be SO thankful that someone gave this amazing dog a chance instead of believing some ridiculous myth that rescue dogs weren't worth saving. And I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT the next dog waiting on the euthanasia list for a space in my house is going to be equally as wonderful.

There is no excuse that anyone can give me for buying a dog - other than, "I just wanted to". Fine, thats what you wanted to do - great! Just don't try to give me some BS explanation about how you can somehow get a better dog because of it. THAT is how this whole discussion got started.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Here's my beagle mix, Lucy. She came from a rural shelter in Georgia. We live in CT. We did not meet her before commencing her adoption. I received an e-mail with her photo and that of many other dogs who were to be euthanized by the end of the week. Our other dogs were not able to meet her in advance either, but we had the support of a wonderful rescue group in CT, should anything have gone awry in that regard.

Lucy is a sweetheart. An energetic little sweetheart, but she is properly exercised. She has no issues. She has had some training in our home, but not to work out any "issues," just basic training.

My point is that not all shelter dogs are bad or will have issues. I know many people who have rescued their dogs and are perfectly delighted with their companions. Buying dogs is not for me, but to each their own. I do not expect I can change anyone else's opinion on this, but I think it is careless to imply that all shelter dogs have issues just to support one's own decisions.

I think someone said 99% of bully breeds in shelters have issues. Source, please?

********

Here's Lucy!

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Waterlily, I respect and admire you for your love and defense of animals, especially shelter animals. I think it''s very apparent that you really care for animals, and I definitely can''t fault you for wanting to defend adoption is the better? best? option.

However, I think the WAY you defend your position doesn''t necessarily help it, y''know? Attacking people for the choices they have already made in regard to their own beloved pets and members of the family isn''t going to convert anyone to your cause.

And with that said, I think NO ONE here is saying that adoption is a bad option. I think everyone on this thread is an animal lover, and in all of our perfect worlds, strays wouldn''t exist because ALL animals would have loving, caring homes. BUT adoption isn''t for everyone. Different strokes for different folks. And I don''t think people who buyer from reputable breeders should be castigated for their choice (now someone buying from/supporting/running a puppy mill or ignorant backyard breeding - TOTALLY different case, and those people SHOULD be castigated).

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for buying from reputable breeders. People want to show and breed, or people want a specific breed, because they have allergies, or size constraints, or want characteristics that tend to run strongly in Breed A versus Breed B. That''s their choice, just as it is your choice to adopt from shelters. I don''t get all this acrimony here.

And I will admit I am biased - I have two purebred Bengal cats, I grew up with a Chihuahua (though we got him from, I think, one of those couples who didn''t think to neuter/spay their dogs - he was neurotic for sure but the best dog ever), and my mom got purebred Chihuahua puppies this time around because she wanted to stay with the breed.

 

[partgypsy]

I just wanted to post a picture of our chow mix dog (now passed away). My husband who had dogs all his life said she was the sweetest dog he''s ever had. She was found as a puppy (rescue). So yeah, if you adopt a puppy, you have so much influence on that animal''s lifel. I did NOT want to initially adopt this dog because she was a chow mix, and believed all the terrible stories I had heard about them. I''m so glad we did.

In the interest of full disclosure, we have also adopted another rescue dog, which has not been so successful. He was adopted when he was a year or so, has a history of abuse. Not from a shelter, from a private individual. The foster parents did not want to drop him at a shelter because they knew, he would be put down as not suitable. So, our experiences with Chuck I would not characterize as being typical to adopting dogs, it was a risky adoption. Still he is our dog, he has a home.

I''m not going to get on my high horse about it because heck I eat meat, I had my own kids versus adopt a couple needy children, etc. Just trying to clear the air about preconceptions about shelter dogs and cats.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Oh ladies, your boys are SO HANDSOME!

Here''s the big mushy ball of fluff known as D.O.G.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

My mom''s new boy, Coco

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

The little girl, Kola

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

My Dante:

My Kipling:

And both, Dante in the foreground:

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 7/1/2010 7:34:37 AM
Author: waterlilly
Girlface: 'I truly had no idea that my beautiful dog did not deserve a loving home just because he was not from a shelter.' Seriously? This is what you invented from what I wrote? Give me a break.


Question - to you and HH: how many rescued Chow Chow's and Am.Bully's have you had in your home to base your statements on? Thinking that dogs from rescue are mentally and physically unbalanced in some way is a complete myth. It is no more true than the myth that all bully's are viscous dogs.


People buy dogs, people get tired of the dog or the dog gets pregnant with neighbors dog because people are idiots and then they dump them in shelters or surrender them to rescues. People buy dogs and have NO CLUE about what breed they want other than how a dog looks. Bullies, JRT's and huskies are a perfect example - the average home can NOT meet the needs of these breeds. After a few months, dumped.


My USDAA-ADCH Pit X that I rescued at 4 years old with a chain embedded in his neck would beg to differ that you have to have a puppy in order to end up with a well trained dog. Obedience and agility titles can be earned by any dog regardless of breed.


It's obvious people really are (oooh, here comes the word again) ignorant about rescue dogs.


You do realize you can rescue puppies right? Although my favorite dogs to foster are adults, I've got six 9 week old labs coming on Saturday, their mom went to heaven Monday morning. Sweet, goofy, face licking black lab mom. Having dealt with the news of that yesterday - despite making it very clear our rescue would take mother AND pups (in between trying to work my actual job) I probably should have just kept my mouth shut on the other thread knowing it was a bit personal, but I could not help myself.


I don't even comprehend the comment about buying from a breeder so you could train a dog not 're-train' it? How do you retrain a rescued puppy?


Puppies are an ENORMOUS amount of work. You have to put a lot of time and effort in to ANY dog, it has nothing to do with you having purchased your dog from a breeder. If you are inexperienced, it doesn't matter how great a pedigree is - its all about choosing the appropriate breed or mix.


Haven: 'I'd much rather see people get dogs from reputable breeders when they know they aren't going to be able to really give a shelter dog the structure, rehabilitation, training, everything else that he is going to need. I think it takes an extremely committed owner to adopt a shelter dog with aggression issues, and unfortunately, so many shelter dogs HAVE aggression issues. That's just not what everyone wants to sign up for when they adopt a dog, and that is OKAY.'


Really, so many shelter dogs have aggression issues? Again, I'll ask - how many dogs have you rescued that you are basing that statement on?? What shelter do you know of has money to spend housing dogs that are a potential liability or just outright aggressive? Please, a starving bag of bones dog that makes the slightest lip curl when someone tests its reaction to a hand being stuck in the first bowl of food it's had in weeks - euthanized.


I'm baffled.


Just as people think any dog with a square head and muscular stature is a dangerous 'Pit Bull', there are people that think rescue dogs are somehow damaged goods.


Yes, I enjoy taking strange dogs that are dangerous and aggressive and neurotic into my home with my own dogs and cat and exposing them to my family and then adopting them out to unsuspecting people. Its the rush of the 'danger' that keeps me and thousands others doing it, yeah that's it.


RESCUES foster their dogs in experienced homes. You know exactly what you are getting if you adopt a dog that has been fostered. Mine have been living with other dogs, a cat, getting top quality food, sleeping in a warm bed, house trained, obedience trained, and probably ready to enter a novice agility trial if I've had it long enough. And when you come along, I'll kiss it goodbye and hide my tears while you happily drive away with it - because I will be SO thankful that someone gave this amazing dog a chance instead of believing some ridiculous myth that rescue dogs weren't worth saving. And I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT the next dog waiting on the euthanasia list for a space in my house is going to be equally as wonderful.


There is no excuse that anyone can give me for buying a dog - other than, 'I just wanted to'. Fine, thats what you wanted to do - great! Just don't try to give me some BS explanation about how you can somehow get a better dog because of it. THAT is how this whole discussion got started.

Waterlily-First there's a HUGE difference between a rescue dog who's been fostered with an experienced person and a shelter dog who was dropped at the door of the local humane society. I believe 'most' of us (certainly me anyway) were talking about adopting from the local humane society, NOT a rescue.

Second, I really resent your inference that my husband and I don't know what we're talking about or are ill equipped to adopt a dog and train him. I NEVER, not once, said that I could get a "better dog" by buying one. I do support shelter and rescue adoptions; however, with the breed we chose to adopt that wasn't an option for us. We didn't feel comfortable with it. You never know what a particular dog's trigger is going to be and it's not necessarily something that will show in the standard screening at shelters. I know dogs who get freaked out and aggressive by the doorbell when they're babies the rest of the time. What's worse? Adopting and realizing your dog has issues that you're ill equipped to manage, possibly putting your family and neighborhood at risk and then returning it or being forced to put it down due to public displays of aggression? Yes we do see chows and mixed chows in our local shelters A LOT in the Boston/RI areas. We also know of several rescue groups in the area and we're involved on several chow forums online. Bottom line though? WE DID WHAT WAS RIGHT FOR OUR FAMILY.

D.O.G. is our second chow. Our first chow, Piju, was adopted from a neighbor who thought he was "trouble." No, he wasn't "trouble," he was just neglected as a puppy. You said in your post that people don't realize that their dogs have specific needs. Chows DO have very specific needs and very specific personalities. They're naturally alphas and very dominant and you have to have a firm and consistent training approach to successfully train them. In addition to lots of exercise, they need constant socialization within the family unit and in public and with people of all ages, sizes and personalities to reinforce their feelings of security and confidence. The neighbor didn't know this, he adopted the puppy because he looked like a bear cub and then proceeded to keep him crated and alone about 90% of the time. There very little bonding with the family or walks on the street, but yet the owner was shocked when the dog growled at his kids. His early life consisted of crate-to lead-to food bowl-back to crate. Lather, rinse and repeat. Yea I'd be pissed off at my family if they treated me that way too.

My husband and his grandmother adopted Piju at about six months old, and even at that young age he was scarred for life by his experience with our neighbor. He had abandonment/territory issues until he passed away in 2008. And this is after DH working with him for 14 years on his problems. And yes, DH went to trainers and learned how to properly manage and train him. Over time he loosened up, and within our home he was a pussy cat, but we couldn't even go through a drive through or toll booth with him in the car because he'd freak out at the person in the window. And God help the UPS man when he came to the door...This isn't something that the humane society would test for necessarily.

So yea, we're quite knowledgeable of what it takes to raise a troubled chow. We also adopted him KNOWING that he would be in our lives for 14 or so years. We adopted him KNOWING he would be our family dog and would be around our children, nieces and nephews, relatives, friends, strangers and other pets. A return was never an option for us.

So I ditto the OP when she said thanks for calling me ignorant. Perhaps before you start throwing around assumptions and judgments you should stop and ask people for a little more information about their specific situation, because in the end, YOU'RE the one who ends up looking like a jerk.

ETA: I'd also like to state that I have 3 cats. One of them was a pet store purchase (gift from an ex), an adoptee from the local HS (who was adopted and returned 2 times before I adopted him), and an adopted kitten from a feral litter.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I must admit that while I support my local breed rescue club, I am MORE supportive of great breeders because I think they do more for dogs than shelters. Shelters have their place, but they also enable BYB and puppy mills by taking in their "unwanted" dogs. When I used to volunteer at a shelter in the midwest, I would have people come in talking about how much they hated BYBs and puppy mills and wanted to adopt an unwanted dog, but often times the dog they adopted was from some scumbag BYB who couldn't find a home for his dogs and left them at the shelter.

ETA: I've said it before and I'll say it again. A reputable breeder will make you sign a contract stating that you can never, under any circumstances, allow one of their dogs to go to a shelter. If a dog must be rehomed, it goes back to the breeder so that the breeder can screen the new owner in ways a shelter won't. And often times breeders place these dogs free of cost. That is a practice I'm much more supportive of.

 

[Puppmom]

I just wanted to chime in on one last thing - I absolutely agree that it''s all about a person making a choice that''s right for THEM. Adopting from a breeder isn''t for everyone and rescue isn''t for everyone. But anyone who puts the time and energy into finding the right pet for them and not just running out on a whim and bringing home a *cute* animal deserves a lot of credit. I''m sure everyone posting on this thread takes great care to give their animals a good home and that''s something to celebrate.

Oh, and I love the pics! Haven, that looks like the happiest place on earth!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 7/1/2010 7:34:37 AM
Author: waterlilly

There is no excuse that anyone can give me for buying a dog - other than, ''I just wanted to''. Fine, thats what you wanted to do - great! Just don''t try to give me some BS explanation about how you can somehow get a better dog because of it. THAT is how this whole discussion got started.

There are many great reasons to support a breeder besides "I just wanted to". As I said in my previous post, I feel that great breeders do A LOT more for dogs than shelters.

Also, yes, you can adopt a puppy. And that puppy very well may have come from a puppy mill. By law, shelters cannot turn a BYB or puppy mill away when they drop puppies off at their door.

 

[Prana]

Waterlilly, I''m sorry, but you sound like a very hostile person.

Nobody here said that they didn''t support pet adoption, myself included. Yet you feel that it is necessary to write these preachy posts about adoption facilities and ''facts'', calling us ignorant and basically speaking to us as if we are stupid. I really don''t appreciate it.

I think the majority of us here understand how adoption facilities and shelters work. I''m sure the majority of us here know the absolute horrors of animal cruelty and euthanasia. It makes us all sick. We don''t need your preaching and ''education''. We aren''t ignorant, as you like to think.

I''ve said before, I can see that my original post came across differently than I intended, and I''m sorry that my words have been misconstrued.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

In my adult life, I have owned four dogs. One of them passed away last year, and we still have the other three. Two of those four dogs came from breeders, one came from the local Humane Society, and one came from an accidental litter born to DH''s friend''s dog. I can tell you without a doubt that DH and I have loved every single one of those four dogs equally, regardless of where they came from.

Each of our dogs has a distinct personality, including both positive and negative traits. I would not say that our two pure-bred dogs are in any way "better" or "worse" than our two mixed breeds.

Tucker, our youngest, is a pure-bred French Bulldog who we purchased from a breeder last September. We did a great deal of research into the breed before deciding to add a Frenchie to our family. After deciding that this was the right breed for us, we tried unsuccessfully to adopt from a breed-specific rescue. The rescue was reluctant to adopt a dog to us since this would be our first Frenchie and their preference is to adopt to people who have previous Frenchie experience. Frenchies are very special dogs and they have very special needs. This is not the right breed for everyone, and I respect the rescue for being overly cautious. I would much rather they do that than just adopt a dog to anyone who wants one. So, because we were new to the breed, we were not able to adopt from a breed-specific rescue. That being the case, we carefully researched many responsible breeders all over the country until we finally found one that we felt comfortable with. She spoke with us extensively by phone and via e-mail before agreeing to sell us a puppy. She just happened to be located halfway across the country, so I flew quite a distance to get Tucker. When the time comes for us to add another Frenchie to our family, it is my hope that we will be able to adopt through a breed-specific rescue now that we are experienced Frenchie owners.

My point in all of this is that people make their decisions for all kinds of different reasons, which may not immediately be evident to a casual observer. Someone who purchases a dog from a breeder rather than adopting through a rescue is not necessarily doing the "wrong" thing.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 7/1/2010 9:56:15 AM
Author: girlface
Waterlilly, I'm sorry, but you sound like a very hostile person.

Nobody here said that they didn't support pet adoption, myself included. Yet you feel that it is necessary to write these preachy posts about adoption facilities and 'facts', calling us ignorant and basically speaking to us as if we are stupid. I really don't appreciate it.

I think the majority of us here understand how adoption facilities and shelters work. I'm sure the majority of us here know the absolute horrors of animal cruelty and euthanasia. It makes us all sick. We don't need your preaching and 'education'. We aren't ignorant, as you like to think.

I've said before, I can see that my original post came across differently than I intended, and I'm sorry that my words have been misconstrued.

Yeah, no. I think a lot of posters implied that it is not appropriate to adopt certain dogs from shelters. Yourself included. You said in the other thread (and here's where that tricky quoting thing comes up again), "Bully breeds are some of THE MOST overbred, inbred dogs out there, and because of this, suffer a huge range of psychological and health issues. 99% of shelter bully's probably fit into this category."

Waterlilly is merely responding to these posts from her direct experience.

By the way, what is the source for your statement that 99% of bully's suffer a huge range of psychological and health issues? If you don't have one, then why do you feel comfortable making such statements when you know pitbulls are euthanized each and every day?

 

[lulu]

Date: 7/1/2010 3:00:51 AM
Author: Haven
I came back to add an ETA that I think we really agree on the basics. Funny that you just said the same thing.

I often feel guilty because the animal shelters distress me so much that I take breaks from my time with them. It''s one of those things that is so heartbreaking to me that sometimes I just cannot face it. But then I know that I need to be in there helping, and so I go back.

The cat room is the hardest place for me. There are literally HUNDREDS of kitties in there, and the minute you sit down they crawl all over you. I feel blissful when I''m there with them and we''re getting good snuggles in, but then when I go to stand up and the realization hits me that I can''t take them home it''s horrible. They''re a band of lovers, those kitties.

Haven, I understand. I did cat rescue for years and it broke me. I would go to the shelter everyday and cry. I have shelter animals now and in the future I''ll take older animals.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 7/1/2010 8:52:28 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk

Date: 7/1/2010 7:34:37 AM

Author: waterlilly

Girlface: 'I truly had no idea that my beautiful dog did not deserve a loving home just because he was not from a shelter.' Seriously? This is what you invented from what I wrote? Give me a break.



Question - to you and HH: how many rescued Chow Chow's and Am.Bully's have you had in your home to base your statements on? Thinking that dogs from rescue are mentally and physically unbalanced in some way is a complete myth. It is no more true than the myth that all bully's are viscous dogs.



People buy dogs, people get tired of the dog or the dog gets pregnant with neighbors dog because people are idiots and then they dump them in shelters or surrender them to rescues. People buy dogs and have NO CLUE about what breed they want other than how a dog looks. Bullies, JRT's and huskies are a perfect example - the average home can NOT meet the needs of these breeds. After a few months, dumped.



My USDAA-ADCH Pit X that I rescued at 4 years old with a chain embedded in his neck would beg to differ that you have to have a puppy in order to end up with a well trained dog. Obedience and agility titles can be earned by any dog regardless of breed.



It's obvious people really are (oooh, here comes the word again) ignorant about rescue dogs.



You do realize you can rescue puppies right? Although my favorite dogs to foster are adults, I've got six 9 week old labs coming on Saturday, their mom went to heaven Monday morning. Sweet, goofy, face licking black lab mom. Having dealt with the news of that yesterday - despite making it very clear our rescue would take mother AND pups (in between trying to work my actual job) I probably should have just kept my mouth shut on the other thread knowing it was a bit personal, but I could not help myself.



I don't even comprehend the comment about buying from a breeder so you could train a dog not 're-train' it? How do you retrain a rescued puppy?



Puppies are an ENORMOUS amount of work. You have to put a lot of time and effort in to ANY dog, it has nothing to do with you having purchased your dog from a breeder. If you are inexperienced, it doesn't matter how great a pedigree is - its all about choosing the appropriate breed or mix.



Haven: 'I'd much rather see people get dogs from reputable breeders when they know they aren't going to be able to really give a shelter dog the structure, rehabilitation, training, everything else that he is going to need. I think it takes an extremely committed owner to adopt a shelter dog with aggression issues, and unfortunately, so many shelter dogs HAVE aggression issues. That's just not what everyone wants to sign up for when they adopt a dog, and that is OKAY.'



Really, so many shelter dogs have aggression issues? Again, I'll ask - how many dogs have you rescued that you are basing that statement on?? What shelter do you know of has money to spend housing dogs that are a potential liability or just outright aggressive? Please, a starving bag of bones dog that makes the slightest lip curl when someone tests its reaction to a hand being stuck in the first bowl of food it's had in weeks - euthanized.



I'm baffled.



Just as people think any dog with a square head and muscular stature is a dangerous 'Pit Bull', there are people that think rescue dogs are somehow damaged goods.



Yes, I enjoy taking strange dogs that are dangerous and aggressive and neurotic into my home with my own dogs and cat and exposing them to my family and then adopting them out to unsuspecting people. Its the rush of the 'danger' that keeps me and thousands others doing it, yeah that's it.



RESCUES foster their dogs in experienced homes. You know exactly what you are getting if you adopt a dog that has been fostered. Mine have been living with other dogs, a cat, getting top quality food, sleeping in a warm bed, house trained, obedience trained, and probably ready to enter a novice agility trial if I've had it long enough. And when you come along, I'll kiss it goodbye and hide my tears while you happily drive away with it - because I will be SO thankful that someone gave this amazing dog a chance instead of believing some ridiculous myth that rescue dogs weren't worth saving. And I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT the next dog waiting on the euthanasia list for a space in my house is going to be equally as wonderful.



There is no excuse that anyone can give me for buying a dog - other than, 'I just wanted to'. Fine, thats what you wanted to do - great! Just don't try to give me some BS explanation about how you can somehow get a better dog because of it. THAT is how this whole discussion got started.

Waterlily-First there's a HUGE difference between a rescue dog who's been fostered with an experienced person and a shelter dog who was dropped at the door of the local humane society. I believe 'most' of us (certainly me anyway) were talking about adopting from the local humane society, NOT a rescue.


Second, I really resent your inference that my husband and I don't know what we're talking about or are ill equipped to adopt a dog and train him. I NEVER, not once, said that I could get a 'better dog' by buying one. I do support shelter and rescue adoptions; however, with the breed we chose to adopt that wasn't an option for us. We didn't feel comfortable with it. You never know what a particular dog's trigger is going to be and it's not necessarily something that will show in the standard screening at shelters. I know dogs who get freaked out and aggressive by the doorbell when they're babies the rest of the time. What's worse? Adopting and realizing your dog has issues that you're ill equipped to manage, possibly putting your family and neighborhood at risk and then returning it or being forced to put it down due to public displays of aggression? Yes we do see chows and mixed chows in our local shelters A LOT in the Boston/RI areas. We also know of several rescue groups in the area and we're involved on several chow forums online. Bottom line though? WE DID WHAT WAS RIGHT FOR OUR FAMILY.


D.O.G. is our second chow. Our first chow, Piju, was adopted from a neighbor who thought he was 'trouble.' No, he wasn't 'trouble,' he was just neglected as a puppy. You said in your post that people don't realize that their dogs have specific needs. Chows DO have very specific needs and very specific personalities. They're naturally alphas and very dominant and you have to have a firm and consistent training approach to successfully train them. In addition to lots of exercise, they need constant socialization within the family unit and in public and with people of all ages, sizes and personalities to reinforce their feelings of security and confidence. The neighbor didn't know this, he adopted the puppy because he looked like a bear cub and then proceeded to keep him crated and alone about 90% of the time. There very little bonding with the family or walks on the street, but yet the owner was shocked when the dog growled at his kids. His early life consisted of crate-to lead-to food bowl-back to crate. Lather, rinse and repeat. Yea I'd be pissed off at my family if they treated me that way too.


My husband and his grandmother adopted Piju at about six months old, and even at that young age he was scarred for life by his experience with our neighbor. He had abandonment/territory issues until he passed away in 2008. And this is after DH working with him for 14 years on his problems. And yes, DH went to trainers and learned how to properly manage and train him. Over time he loosened up, and within our home he was a pussy cat, but we couldn't even go through a drive through or toll booth with him in the car because he'd freak out at the person in the window. And God help the UPS man when he came to the door...This isn't something that the humane society would test for necessarily.


So yea, we're quite knowledgeable of what it takes to raise a troubled chow. We also adopted him KNOWING that he would be in our lives for 14 or so years. We adopted him KNOWING he would be our family dog and would be around our children, nieces and nephews, relatives, friends, strangers and other pets. A return was never an option for us.


So I ditto the OP when she said thanks for calling me ignorant. Perhaps before you start throwing around assumptions and judgments you should stop and ask people for a little more information about their specific situation, because in the end, YOU'RE the one who ends up looking like a jerk.


ETA: I'd also like to state that I have 3 cats. One of them was a pet store purchase (gift from an ex), an adoptee from the local HS (who was adopted and returned 2 times before I adopted him), and an adopted kitten from a feral litter.

Because of THIS comment made by you:
"In my opinion it's WAY too risky to adopt these breeds from shelters because often times they've been abused and neglected."

I asked:
Question - to you and HH: how many rescued Chow Chow's and Am.Bully's have you had in your home to base your statements on? Thinking that dogs from rescue are mentally and physically unbalanced in some way is a complete myth. It is no more true than the myth that all bully's are viscous dogs.


So, how on earth did you come up with THIS?:
"Second, I really resent your inference that my husband and I don't know what we're talking about or are ill equipped to adopt a dog and train him."

People just keep TWISTING this discussion into something it absolutely is not.

 

[Prana]

Date: 7/1/2010 10:03:12 AM
Author: Loves Vintage

Date: 7/1/2010 9:56:15 AM
Author: girlface
Waterlilly, I''m sorry, but you sound like a very hostile person.

Nobody here said that they didn''t support pet adoption, myself included. Yet you feel that it is necessary to write these preachy posts about adoption facilities and ''facts'', calling us ignorant and basically speaking to us as if we are stupid. I really don''t appreciate it.

I think the majority of us here understand how adoption facilities and shelters work. I''m sure the majority of us here know the absolute horrors of animal cruelty and euthanasia. It makes us all sick. We don''t need your preaching and ''education''. We aren''t ignorant, as you like to think.

I''ve said before, I can see that my original post came across differently than I intended, and I''m sorry that my words have been misconstrued.

Yeah, no. I think a lot of posters implied that it is not appropriate to adopt certain dogs from shelters. Yourself included. You said in the other thread (and here''s where that tricky quoting thing comes up again), ''Bully breeds are some of THE MOST overbred, inbred dogs out there, and because of this, suffer a huge range of psychological and health issues. 99% of shelter bully''s probably fit into this category.''

Waterlilly is merely responding to these posts from her direct experience.

By the way, what is the source for your statement that 99% of bully''s suffer a huge range of psychological and health issues? If you don''t have one, then why do you feel comfortable making such statements when you know pitbulls are euthanized each and every day?

You''re right, it was NOT AN APPROPRIATE DECISION FOR ME AND MY HUSBAND to adopt the dog we wanted from a shelter. 99% coupled with the word probably would imply that this was not a statement based on fact.

 

[Puppmom]

Date: 7/1/2010 9:43:08 AM
Author: puppmom
I just wanted to chime in on one last thing - I absolutely agree that it''s all about a person making a choice that''s right for THEM. Adopting from a breeder isn''t for everyone and rescue isn''t for everyone. But anyone who puts the time and energy into finding the right pet for them and not just running out on a whim and bringing home a *cute* animal deserves a lot of credit. I''m sure everyone posting on this thread takes great care to give their animals a good home and that''s something to celebrate.

Oh, and I love the pics! Haven, that looks like the happiest place on earth!

Oy! I should have read your post more thoroughly. Clearly, a shelter is NOT the happiest place on earth. Sorry for the mixup. But clearly those kitties are happy to see you and vice versa.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 7/1/2010 10:03:36 AM
Author: waterlilly

Date: 7/1/2010 8:52:28 AM

Author: Hudson_Hawk

Date: 7/1/2010 7:34:37 AM


Author: waterlilly


Girlface: 'I truly had no idea that my beautiful dog did not deserve a loving home just because he was not from a shelter.' Seriously? This is what you invented from what I wrote? Give me a break.




Question - to you and HH: how many rescued Chow Chow's and Am.Bully's have you had in your home to base your statements on? Thinking that dogs from rescue are mentally and physically unbalanced in some way is a complete myth. It is no more true than the myth that all bully's are viscous dogs.




People buy dogs, people get tired of the dog or the dog gets pregnant with neighbors dog because people are idiots and then they dump them in shelters or surrender them to rescues. People buy dogs and have NO CLUE about what breed they want other than how a dog looks. Bullies, JRT's and huskies are a perfect example - the average home can NOT meet the needs of these breeds. After a few months, dumped.




My USDAA-ADCH Pit X that I rescued at 4 years old with a chain embedded in his neck would beg to differ that you have to have a puppy in order to end up with a well trained dog. Obedience and agility titles can be earned by any dog regardless of breed.




It's obvious people really are (oooh, here comes the word again) ignorant about rescue dogs.




You do realize you can rescue puppies right? Although my favorite dogs to foster are adults, I've got six 9 week old labs coming on Saturday, their mom went to heaven Monday morning. Sweet, goofy, face licking black lab mom. Having dealt with the news of that yesterday - despite making it very clear our rescue would take mother AND pups (in between trying to work my actual job) I probably should have just kept my mouth shut on the other thread knowing it was a bit personal, but I could not help myself.




I don't even comprehend the comment about buying from a breeder so you could train a dog not 're-train' it? How do you retrain a rescued puppy?




Puppies are an ENORMOUS amount of work. You have to put a lot of time and effort in to ANY dog, it has nothing to do with you having purchased your dog from a breeder. If you are inexperienced, it doesn't matter how great a pedigree is - its all about choosing the appropriate breed or mix.




Haven: 'I'd much rather see people get dogs from reputable breeders when they know they aren't going to be able to really give a shelter dog the structure, rehabilitation, training, everything else that he is going to need. I think it takes an extremely committed owner to adopt a shelter dog with aggression issues, and unfortunately, so many shelter dogs HAVE aggression issues. That's just not what everyone wants to sign up for when they adopt a dog, and that is OKAY.'




Really, so many shelter dogs have aggression issues? Again, I'll ask - how many dogs have you rescued that you are basing that statement on?? What shelter do you know of has money to spend housing dogs that are a potential liability or just outright aggressive? Please, a starving bag of bones dog that makes the slightest lip curl when someone tests its reaction to a hand being stuck in the first bowl of food it's had in weeks - euthanized.




I'm baffled.




Just as people think any dog with a square head and muscular stature is a dangerous 'Pit Bull', there are people that think rescue dogs are somehow damaged goods.




Yes, I enjoy taking strange dogs that are dangerous and aggressive and neurotic into my home with my own dogs and cat and exposing them to my family and then adopting them out to unsuspecting people. Its the rush of the 'danger' that keeps me and thousands others doing it, yeah that's it.




RESCUES foster their dogs in experienced homes. You know exactly what you are getting if you adopt a dog that has been fostered. Mine have been living with other dogs, a cat, getting top quality food, sleeping in a warm bed, house trained, obedience trained, and probably ready to enter a novice agility trial if I've had it long enough. And when you come along, I'll kiss it goodbye and hide my tears while you happily drive away with it - because I will be SO thankful that someone gave this amazing dog a chance instead of believing some ridiculous myth that rescue dogs weren't worth saving. And I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT the next dog waiting on the euthanasia list for a space in my house is going to be equally as wonderful.




There is no excuse that anyone can give me for buying a dog - other than, 'I just wanted to'. Fine, thats what you wanted to do - great! Just don't try to give me some BS explanation about how you can somehow get a better dog because of it. THAT is how this whole discussion got started.

Waterlily-First there's a HUGE difference between a rescue dog who's been fostered with an experienced person and a shelter dog who was dropped at the door of the local humane society. I believe 'most' of us (certainly me anyway) were talking about adopting from the local humane society, NOT a rescue.



Second, I really resent your inference that my husband and I don't know what we're talking about or are ill equipped to adopt a dog and train him. I NEVER, not once, said that I could get a 'better dog' by buying one. I do support shelter and rescue adoptions; however, with the breed we chose to adopt that wasn't an option for us. We didn't feel comfortable with it. You never know what a particular dog's trigger is going to be and it's not necessarily something that will show in the standard screening at shelters. I know dogs who get freaked out and aggressive by the doorbell when they're babies the rest of the time. What's worse? Adopting and realizing your dog has issues that you're ill equipped to manage, possibly putting your family and neighborhood at risk and then returning it or being forced to put it down due to public displays of aggression? Yes we do see chows and mixed chows in our local shelters A LOT in the Boston/RI areas. We also know of several rescue groups in the area and we're involved on several chow forums online. Bottom line though? WE DID WHAT WAS RIGHT FOR OUR FAMILY.



D.O.G. is our second chow. Our first chow, Piju, was adopted from a neighbor who thought he was 'trouble.' No, he wasn't 'trouble,' he was just neglected as a puppy. You said in your post that people don't realize that their dogs have specific needs. Chows DO have very specific needs and very specific personalities. They're naturally alphas and very dominant and you have to have a firm and consistent training approach to successfully train them. In addition to lots of exercise, they need constant socialization within the family unit and in public and with people of all ages, sizes and personalities to reinforce their feelings of security and confidence. The neighbor didn't know this, he adopted the puppy because he looked like a bear cub and then proceeded to keep him crated and alone about 90% of the time. There very little bonding with the family or walks on the street, but yet the owner was shocked when the dog growled at his kids. His early life consisted of crate-to lead-to food bowl-back to crate. Lather, rinse and repeat. Yea I'd be pissed off at my family if they treated me that way too.



My husband and his grandmother adopted Piju at about six months old, and even at that young age he was scarred for life by his experience with our neighbor. He had abandonment/territory issues until he passed away in 2008. And this is after DH working with him for 14 years on his problems. And yes, DH went to trainers and learned how to properly manage and train him. Over time he loosened up, and within our home he was a pussy cat, but we couldn't even go through a drive through or toll booth with him in the car because he'd freak out at the person in the window. And God help the UPS man when he came to the door...This isn't something that the humane society would test for necessarily.



So yea, we're quite knowledgeable of what it takes to raise a troubled chow. We also adopted him KNOWING that he would be in our lives for 14 or so years. We adopted him KNOWING he would be our family dog and would be around our children, nieces and nephews, relatives, friends, strangers and other pets. A return was never an option for us.



So I ditto the OP when she said thanks for calling me ignorant. Perhaps before you start throwing around assumptions and judgments you should stop and ask people for a little more information about their specific situation, because in the end, YOU'RE the one who ends up looking like a jerk.



ETA: I'd also like to state that I have 3 cats. One of them was a pet store purchase (gift from an ex), an adoptee from the local HS (who was adopted and returned 2 times before I adopted him), and an adopted kitten from a feral litter.

Because of THIS comment made by you:

'In my opinion it's WAY too risky to adopt these breeds from shelters because often times they've been abused and neglected.'


I asked:

Question - to you and HH: how many rescued Chow Chow's and Am.Bully's have you had in your home to base your statements on? Thinking that dogs from rescue are mentally and physically unbalanced in some way is a complete myth. It is no more true than the myth that all bully's are viscous dogs.



So, how on earth did you come up with THIS?:

'Second, I really resent your inference that my husband and I don't know what we're talking about or are ill equipped to adopt a dog and train him.'


People just keep TWISTING this discussion into something it absolutely is not.

That would be this line:

"People buy dogs, people get tired of the dog or the dog gets pregnant with neighbors dog because people are idiots and then they dump them in shelters or surrender them to rescues. People buy dogs and have NO CLUE about what breed they want other than how a dog looks. Bullies, JRT's and huskies are a perfect example - the average home can NOT meet the needs of these breeds. After a few months, dumped."

and this line:
"You do realize you can rescue puppies right? Although my favorite dogs to foster are adults, I've got six 9 week old labs coming on Saturday, their mom went to heaven Monday morning. Sweet, goofy, face licking black lab mom. Having dealt with the news of that yesterday - despite making it very clear our rescue would take mother AND pups (in between trying to work my actual job) I probably should have just kept my mouth shut on the other thread knowing it was a bit personal, but I could not help myself."

And this line:
"I don't even comprehend the comment about buying from a breeder so you could train a dog not "re-train" it? How do you retrain a rescued puppy?"

And then there's this line where you essentially call our decision and explanation a "BS excuse"

"There is no excuse that anyone can give me for buying a dog - other than, "I just wanted to". Fine, thats what you wanted to do - great! Just don't try to give me some BS explanation about how you can somehow get a better dog because of it. THAT is how this whole discussion got started."

WL, I respect your view, experience and knowledge. I wish you'd just be a little more open minded with those of us who've made decisions (well thought out decisions at that) that differ from your opinion. We're not bad pet parents, we're not pet abusers, we're committed to providing loving homes for ALL of our animals, regardless of where we got them. My pets are not just my pets. They're my children. I talk to them, I pretend they talk back to me, I would put step in front of a moving vehicle if it meant saving any one of them and I'd down money to ensure they have the medical care they need before I'd pay to see a doctor for myself. HOWEVER, the decision to adopt a chow came after weighing our past experiences with our own pet and others that we know; the good and the bad. We still decided, regardless of the bad, that it was worth it. But we weren't willing to take what WE considered a risk for our future family. This is something that only WE can decide. And WE decided that going through a breeder was the best option for us.

LV-I'm not girlface but I didn't read her post in the other thread to be saying that 99% of bully breeds in shelters had issues. She said PROBABLY, as in was not confirmed but could be a possibility. And maybe the public perception of bully breeds in shelters being problem dogs is incorrect, but the truth is these breeds ARE some of the most over- and inbred dogs out there. There also more likely to be abandoned at the first sign of a problem versus rehabilitated or trained.

Here is a little information pulled from the web-the question was how many bully breeds end up in shelters (not how many end up in adoption from shelters).

From:http://www.scribd.com/doc/28031506/Forsaken-No-More-Bully-Breed-Adoption
"According to statistics maintained by Merritt Clifton of Animal People, between eight and nine million animals entered American shelters in 2008.

Approximately 45% of those animals were dogs. Although 90% of dogs are statistically considered
to be savable, almost two million dogs were destroyed in shelters in 2008 with 58% of them being
those labeled as pit bulls. "

Regardless of the euthanasia aspect, you can't deny that shelters are often a destination for bully breeds. And as also noted, not all triggers are found during standard screening by shelters. And the fact that 58% of the 2000 dogs noted above were euthanized pit bulls, one can reasonably assume that they had psychological or aggression problems.

Personally I think bully breeds get a bad rep and I know many many pit bulls, boxers, chows, etc who are great and loving animals. But I personally wouldn't feel comfortable adopting one from a shelter. That's my opinion.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Regardless of whether animals came from a breeder or a shelter, they are just like people in this regard: They learn what they live. Animals and people raised and treated with love will be loving. Mentally or physically abused animals and people will have issues and can be vicious.

All of the shelters I know make sure that their animals are socialized and safe to have in a home before they release them for adoption. So do the purebred breeders I know.

Whether an adopted pet comes from a shelter or a breeder, the only thing that matters is that the pet was adopted to be loved and treated with kindness.

"Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."
- Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:8 (37a)

 

[Prana]

Great post Madam Bijoux.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 7/1/2010 10:34:32 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk

Date: 7/1/2010 10:03:36 AM
Author: waterlilly

Date: 7/1/2010 8:52:28 AM

Author: Hudson_Hawk

Date: 7/1/2010 7:34:37 AM


Author: waterlilly

LV-I'm not girlface but I didn't read her post in the other thread to be saying that 99% of bully breeds in shelters had issues. She said PROBABLY, as in was not confirmed but could be a possibility. And maybe the public perception of bully breeds in shelters being problem dogs is incorrect, but the truth is these breeds ARE some of the most over- and inbred dogs out there. There also more likely to be abandoned at the first sign of a problem versus rehabilitated or trained.

Here is a little information pulled from the web-the question was how many bully breeds end up in shelters (not how many end up in adoption from shelters).

From:http://www.scribd.com/doc/28031506/Forsaken-No-More-Bully-Breed-Adoption
'According to statistics maintained by Merritt Clifton of Animal People, between eight and nine million animals entered American shelters in 2008.

Approximately 45% of those animals were dogs. Although 90% of dogs are statistically considered
to be savable, almost two million dogs were destroyed in shelters in 2008 with 58% of them being
those labeled as pit bulls. '

Regardless of the euthanasia aspect, you can't deny that shelters are often a destination for bully breeds. And as also noted, not all triggers are found during standard screening by shelters. And the fact that 58% of the 2000 dogs noted above were euthanized pit bulls, one can reasonably assume that they had psychological or aggression problems.

Personally I think bully breeds get a bad rep and I know many many pit bulls, boxers, chows, etc who are great and loving animals. But I personally wouldn't feel comfortable adopting one from a shelter. That's my opinion.

Why would I ever deny that shelters are often a destination for bully breeds? Of course they are! Of course they are overbred! Of course, they are sold on the street of all major cities. Of course, many of them wind up in shelters when they become adults! Of course, many pregnant bully breeds wind up in shelters, and birth their babies on the cement floor of a dark shelter. And, of course, they all get euthanized on the same day. Why would I ever deny that?

Your inference, however, is faulty. The reason these dogs get euthanized is not because of agression or health issues. They get euthanized because NOBODY WANTS THEM. There are too many and not enough homes. According to the statistics you cited, we are talking about 1,160,000 "pit bulls" per year, and YOU feel comfortable inferring that all or most of the have agression or health issues. Uhm, based on what fact do you make that inference? On the numbers alone? Besides, you said the article said 90% were saveable. I interpret that to mean 90% are deemed adoptable, which I also interpret to mean at least no agression issues. Health issues, I do not know and would not be so bold as to make a guess.

In Hartford, pit bulls are retrieved off the streets every day. The Animal Control Officer makes an assessment as to whether they are agressive. If they are, they get put down. End of story. If they are not agressive, they are deemed adoptable. I get e-mails from this shelter every week with urgent adoptable pit bulls. This ACO is desperate to get the dogs out of the shelter because they only get 10 days. That is it. Last I checked, the city has to pay $10 per day per dog in that shelter. They lease the space from a kennel. After 10 days, could be the sweetest pit bull ever, if no rescue group steps up or adopter shows up, the dog is killed. End of story. Not enough homes. Here are this week's batch: Hartford dogs

Regarding you and your choice re: where to find your pets, that is your choice, and I honestly have nothing to say about it. Live your life as you see fit. But, stop perpetuating myths about these dogs. Let the people who want to save them do the best they can for them. Their decision is theirs, yours is yours. Everything is so much easier that way, isn't it?

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 7/1/2010 10:34:32 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk

Date: 7/1/2010 10:03:36 AM



Because of THIS comment made by you:


''In my opinion it''s WAY too risky to adopt these breeds from shelters because often times they''ve been abused and neglected.''



I asked:


Question - to you and HH: how many rescued Chow Chow''s and Am.Bully''s have you had in your home to base your statements on? Thinking that dogs from rescue are mentally and physically unbalanced in some way is a complete myth. It is no more true than the myth that all bully''s are viscous dogs.




So, how on earth did you come up with THIS?:


''Second, I really resent your inference that my husband and I don''t know what we''re talking about or are ill equipped to adopt a dog and train him.''



People just keep TWISTING this discussion into something it absolutely is not.

That would be this line:


''People buy dogs, people get tired of the dog or the dog gets pregnant with neighbors dog because people are idiots and then they dump them in shelters or surrender them to rescues. People buy dogs and have NO CLUE about what breed they want other than how a dog looks. Bullies, JRT''s and huskies are a perfect example - the average home can NOT meet the needs of these breeds. After a few months, dumped.''


and this line:

''You do realize you can rescue puppies right? Although my favorite dogs to foster are adults, I''ve got six 9 week old labs coming on Saturday, their mom went to heaven Monday morning. Sweet, goofy, face licking black lab mom. Having dealt with the news of that yesterday - despite making it very clear our rescue would take mother AND pups (in between trying to work my actual job) I probably should have just kept my mouth shut on the other thread knowing it was a bit personal, but I could not help myself.''


And this line:

''I don''t even comprehend the comment about buying from a breeder so you could train a dog not ''re-train'' it? How do you retrain a rescued puppy?''


And then there''s this line where you essentially call our decision and explanation a ''BS excuse''


''There is no excuse that anyone can give me for buying a dog - other than, ''I just wanted to''. Fine, thats what you wanted to do - great! Just don''t try to give me some BS explanation about how you can somehow get a better dog because of it. THAT is how this whole discussion got started.''


WL, I respect your view, experience and knowledge. I wish you''d just be a little more open minded with those of us who''ve made decisions (well thought out decisions at that) that differ from your opinion. We''re not bad pet parents, we''re not pet abusers, we''re committed to providing loving homes for ALL of our animals, regardless of where we got them. My pets are not just my pets. They''re my children. I talk to them, I pretend they talk back to me, I would put step in front of a moving vehicle if it meant saving any one of them and I''d down money to ensure they have the medical care they need before I''d pay to see a doctor for myself. HOWEVER, the decision to adopt a chow came after weighing our past experiences with our own pet and others that we know; the good and the bad. We still decided, regardless of the bad, that it was worth it. But we weren''t willing to take what WE considered a risk for our future family. This is something that only WE can decide. And WE decided that going through a breeder was the best option for us.


LV-I''m not girlface but I didn''t read her post in the other thread to be saying that 99% of bully breeds in shelters had issues. She said PROBABLY, as in was not confirmed but could be a possibility. And maybe the public perception of bully breeds in shelters being problem dogs is incorrect, but the truth is these breeds ARE some of the most over- and inbred dogs out there. There also more likely to be abandoned at the first sign of a problem versus rehabilitated or trained.


Here is a little information pulled from the web-the question was how many bully breeds end up in shelters (not how many end up in adoption from shelters).


From:http://www.scribd.com/doc/28031506/Forsaken-No-More-Bully-Breed-Adoption

''According to statistics maintained by Merritt Clifton of Animal People, between eight and nine million animals entered American shelters in 2008.


Approximately 45% of those animals were dogs. Although 90% of dogs are statistically considered

to be savable, almost two million dogs were destroyed in shelters in 2008 with 58% of them being

those labeled as pit bulls. ''


Regardless of the euthanasia aspect, you can''t deny that shelters are often a destination for bully breeds. And as also noted, not all triggers are found during standard screening by shelters. And the fact that 58% of the 2000 dogs noted above were euthanized pit bulls, one can reasonably assume that they had psychological or aggression problems.


Personally I think bully breeds get a bad rep and I know many many pit bulls, boxers, chows, etc who are great and loving animals. But I personally wouldn''t feel comfortable adopting one from a shelter. That''s my opinion.

And I STILL don''t see how you came up with this:

''Second, I really resent your inference that my husband and I don''t know what we''re talking about or are ill equipped to adopt a dog and train him.''

I simply asked what you are basing this opinion on: (''In my opinion it''s WAY too risky to adopt these breeds from shelters because often times they''ve been abused and neglected.'') The WHOLE point of this entire discussion is people making assumptions and statements that have no basis other than myth. I DON''T CARE where you got your dog, I DO CARE when I hear people say things that are absolutely not true about a subject that is so close to my heart.

Are we really that confused about what each other is saying?

WHO SAID OTHERWISE? :
''We''re not bad pet parents, we''re not pet abusers, we''re committed to providing loving homes for ALL of our animals, regardless of where we got them. ''

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/1/2010 8:18:49 AM
Author: Brown.Eyed.Girl
Waterlily, I respect and admire you for your love and defense of animals, especially shelter animals. I think it''s very apparent that you really care for animals, and I definitely can''t fault you for wanting to defend adoption is the better? best? option.

However, I think the WAY you defend your position doesn''t necessarily help it, y''know? Attacking people for the choices they have already made in regard to their own beloved pets and members of the family isn''t going to convert anyone to your cause.

And with that said, I think NO ONE here is saying that adoption is a bad option. I think everyone on this thread is an animal lover, and in all of our perfect worlds, strays wouldn''t exist because ALL animals would have loving, caring homes. BUT adoption isn''t for everyone. Different strokes for different folks. And I don''t think people who buyer from reputable breeders should be castigated for their choice (now someone buying from/supporting/running a puppy mill or ignorant backyard breeding - TOTALLY different case, and those people SHOULD be castigated).

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for buying from reputable breeders. People want to show and breed, or people want a specific breed, because they have allergies, or size constraints, or want characteristics that tend to run strongly in Breed A versus Breed B. That''s their choice, just as it is your choice to adopt from shelters. I don''t get all this acrimony here.

And I will admit I am biased - I have two purebred Bengal cats, I grew up with a Chihuahua (though we got him from, I think, one of those couples who didn''t think to neuter/spay their dogs - he was neurotic for sure but the best dog ever), and my mom got purebred Chihuahua puppies this time around because she wanted to stay with the breed.

I respect the work that you do. I cannot respect the attitude you have toward others who have made different choices. You are not entitled to make decisions for others or to berate them for it.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

LV we can agree to disagree about the general topic, but in NO WAY am I perpetuating a myth here. You asked for a statistical example about the number of BB''s (in this example''s case, pbs) and I gave it to you. I''m a big advocate of not applying any label to dog breeds as every dog is different and I definitely acknowledge that aggressive behavior is not the only determining factor in euthanasia. However, I do still think it''s a better safe than sorry type of situation where you have to err on the side of caution and assume that the dogs DO have issues.