D/VS2 good deal?

[blab13692468]

Hi all. A week ago, I posted that I purchased an E/VS1 for $6500 and asked if it was a good deal, but I didn''t feel 100% satisified with what I got:
E
VS1
1.00 carat
61.7table
59depth
faint flor
$6500

Now, I found a different diamond from a different store:
D
VS2
1.01 carat
61.2 table
60 depth
no flor
$5800

Do you think I should return the E/VS1 stone for the D/VS2 stone? $700 is a lot of money, but the clarity is kind of bothering me... Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[aljdewey]

Why weren't you 100% satisfied with what you got? You don't say why.

If you are a purist.....meaning that you just go insane knowing that the stone has inclusions even though you cannot see them.....then perhaps the D/vs2 isn't for you. You need to find a stone that satisfies you and not "settle" for something that you'll continue to second-guess after purchase.

For me, I'd be more than happy with a G/H, VS2/SI1 stone, but that's me. My tolerances, and my lack of emphasis on an invisible notion of perfection. To others, that is very important, and that's fine too.

I'll answer you're question this way: I think you should figure out what you REALLY want and what things you want to place emphasis on and then find a stone that fits your vision. There's no point advising you to choose between these two stones....you're already said you aren't satisfied with the first stone, and you are bothered by the clarity in the second. You've basically said neither stone is satisfactory; recommending that you choose between two stones you don't like doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense to me.

 

[seanmusik]

I am not a gemologist by any means...but the clarity difference between those two is visible only under the "loop". And they are both terrific clarity. However, in my case, as I found out through lack of sleep, that you MUST be satisfied with your purchase.

To the naked eye, color is more noticable than clarity, and D is top of the line. Whether it's worth 700 or not, I don't know. One of the experts here can tell you that.

I just upgraded my original purchase because I was bothered by the uncertified nature of my stone, and the color and clarity as well. I invested about another $1500, but I feel so much more relaxed knowing I bought her the most beautiful stone I could afford (even though I went a bit over budget). I upgraded color and clarity as well.

Go with your gut!

 

[Vynyaca]

What aljdewey says makes a lot of sense. What is most important to you? Do you think you're not satisfied because you found out you could of paid less for a very similar diamond?

Personally, I'd take the D/VS2 but more importantly I'd be comparing the cuts first. But that's just me.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Why does VSanything clarity "bother" you? Even at 10x those inclusions still must be tricky to pick out. Did you look under a microscope? Sometimes the 'scope magnifies things so much they can scare a guy.

If you are that discerning/picky a person then I'd think you'd also be looking for an ideal cut.

 

[DiamondOptics]

Hi Blab,


If you want 100% assurance, you could always contact the Rock Doc or Dave Atlas among other gemologists. They are well known to specialize with helping consumers make the right decisions in diamond purchasing.


-Kirk

 

[aljdewey]

R/A, some people are bothered by VS-anything clarity.....for a varied number of reasons.

One person felt as though he wanted to get a stone that was as close to being perfect as possible (d,if). He realized that the differences wouldn't be visible to the eye, but he was emphatic about the importance he placed on this.

Another person a few months ago felt that his Asian heritage factored heavily into choosing a stone with near perfect clarity. In that culture, we were told, many people place emphasis on quality even if the untrained or naked eye cannot see it. The appearance of quality (meaning the grading, not the optical appearance) is truly important to some people. While I have a hard time embracing that myself, I can understand how others don't necessarily embrace my views either.

That's why I asked if he's a "purist". If he is, that might be why he is bothered by the VS2; if he's not, he may be under the (usually) mistaken impression that VS2 inclusions will be horribly visible to the eye. I don't see the point of launching into why VS2 inclusions are eye-clean if eye-clean isn't his issue. I'm sure once he replies, it will be easier to offer counsel.

 

[Summer]

Hi Blab,

With the information you provided, I like stone 1 (it's much like my earrings) assuming the depth and table numbers are reversed. I love fluor. too!

I also don't think there's anything wrong at all with the clarity of stone 2. I can't answer if it's a good deal. This cut wouldn't be my choice, though.

However, most importantly it doesn't appear that you care for either stone. Maybe you need to continue to look to find something to please you 100%. Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[mike04456]

----------------
On 8/12/2003 6

7:30 PM aljdewey wrote:
R/A, some people are bothered by VS-anything clarity.....for a varied number of reasons.

One person felt as though he wanted to get a stone that was as close to being perfect as possible (d,if). He realized that the differences wouldn't be visible to the eye, but he was emphatic about the importance he placed on this.

----------------

The problem with any pursuit of "perfection" with regard to clarity is that it's wholly relative. Even with a "flawless" stone, we're not talking about a diamond that has no inclusions--just that they aren't visible at 10x. All diamonds have flaws in their crystal structure; some are just harder to see than others. This is why the FTC banned the use of the term "perfect" over 70 years ago. No diamond is perfect, even a D-FL. The idea that such a stone is "pure" or "perfect" or something similiar is an illusion.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 8/12/2003 6:46:58 PM LawGem wrote:

----------------
On 8/12/2003 6

7:30 PM aljdewey wrote:

R/A, some people are bothered by VS-anything clarity.....for a varied number of reasons.

One person felt as though he wanted to get a stone that was as close to being perfect as possible (d,if). He realized that the differences wouldn't be visible to the eye, but he was emphatic about the importance he placed on this.

----------------

The problem with any pursuit of "perfection" with regard to clarity is that it's wholly relative. Even with a "flawless" stone, we're not talking about a diamond that has no inclusions--just that they aren't visible at 10x. All diamonds have flaws in their crystal structure; some are just harder to see than others. This is why the FTC banned the use of the term "perfect" over 70 years ago. No diamond is perfect, even a D-FL. The idea that such a stone is "pure" or "perfect" or something similiar is an illusion.
----------------

Agreed, Lawgem......that's why my comment said "as close to" perfect as possible. Perhaps I would have stated it better to say that some folks are obsessed with the notion that they are getting strictly the top of the line, which *most* of the general public considers D, IF (because it's exceedingly tough to come by even a D, Flawless.)

I don't get it myself; paying for something that looks exactly like another stone that is $1-2K or more cheaper just doesn't do it for me, but to each his own.

 

[fire&ice]

I'm a little cranky this morning.....but....here goes.

IMHO, buying D/IF (or even close) is an ego thing. PERIOD. It's a complete waste of money in my eye. A purist about what? No consumer is in the trade. I think it takes more confidence to buy with your eye & not rely on what a piece of paper says. Given a 1c set stone w/ the exact same cut, I'd bet all day long that most (even the experts) could not discern a D/IF stone from a F/VS2 stone. Heck, I doubt if the majority (perhaps dealers w/ asute eyes) could discern a G/H stone. Certainly not when worn.

So, if you want my opinion, and still want a colorless eye clean stone. Buy a well cut (which true conisours (sp?) focus on) F/VS1 stone.

Personally, I'd go to a larger G/H SI stone. In this size, it should face up white & most of the time the inclusions can not be seen w/ careful scrutiny of the naked eye.


Edited to add, I recently saw earrings. They were D/IF. My only thought - boy are they dinky. I couldn't even see them.

 

[hoorray]

When I first started shopping for my stone, someone told me: the D/IF premium is about rarity, not quality. There is obviously an incremental "quality" difference as you move up the color and clarity scales, but at a point, it becomes meaningless to the appearance of the stone. As I shopped, I used that logic to remind myself to spend my money where I could see it. I decided what the lowest in each catagory would be to make me happy (and there is a personal mental part to it

), and then looked for the best cut stone in the largest size that I could find in my price range.

I ended up with E, VS2 (that's part of the personal mental part -- I really wanted colorless since my previous stone is "off-color" -- it was purely an indulgence for me to feel good about). You would never, ever see any kind of flaw unless you put it under a microscope or were good with a loop.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 8/13/2003 9:22:44 AM hoorray wrote:


I ended up with E, VS2 (that's part of the personal mental part -- I really wanted colorless since my previous stone is "off-color" -- it was purely an indulgence for me to feel good about). You would never, ever see any kind of flaw unless you put it under a microscope or were good with a loop.
----------------

Well, I suppose we are a product of our experiences. My initial diamond is colorless/vvs. Hubby wanted to buy me the best. I really wanted a larger stone; but, I appreciated his sentiment. I don't regret owning that stone today. BUT, I feel we *definitely* over-bought.

I now own a big honking not so perfect stone. Believe me, I get tons of compliments on this stone. I enjoy seeing this large beauty on my hand. After carefully scrutinizing my ring, a friend proclaimed "It's perfect!". I smiled & said a short "not really".

While my little stone (.70) would get a "pretty stone" soemtimes, my ring virtually was ignored. Did I have some satifaction knowing the quality? - perhaps. But, I secretly seethed at the larger (even crappy) stones that got attention. One can not proclaim - but mine's a F/VVS Ideal cut stone - pay attention to me! Shallow - maybe - but just my experiences.

BTW, I am not a flashy person by nature. Just truely a diamond lover. I am most comfortable in my jeans, t-shirt & Ford wagon.

I do, however, like the rarity doesn't neccesarily equate to quality. But, I might add that D/IF stones are harder to move. Demand may not equal rare supply.

 

[Hest88]

If I had the money and didn't have to compromise on size or cut, would I choose a D/IF? Hell yeah! But it's the real world. Sigh.

Bringing this back. Blab, you have to be happy with what you've got. As Ajldewey said, first figure out what you can live with, then go out looking for it. Diamonds are incredibly rare, so if you know what you want, odds are you or your jeweler can find it. (As long as it's still within your price range,. of course.)

 

[aljdewey]

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On 8/13/2003 8:37:59 AM fire&ice wrote:
IMHO, buying D/IF (or even close) is an ego thing, PERIOD. It's a complete waste of money in my eye. A purist about what? No consumer is in the trade. I think it takes more confidence to buy with your eye & not rely on what a piece of paper says. Given a 1c set stone w/ the exact same cut, I'd bet all day long that most (even the experts) could not discern a D/IF stone from a F/VS2 stone. Heck, I doubt if the majority (perhaps dealers w/ asute eyes) could discern a G/H stone. Certainly not when worn.
----------------

F&I, I think it's time to now buy you a cup of coffee. {]

I understand that it's a waste of money in YOUR opinion......frankly, it is in mine, too. But others (remember Jlim?) don't feel that way, and I respect their right to place value on what's important to them, even if I don't agree.

Some people KNOW that the eye absolutely cannot discern the difference between the D/IF stone and the F/VS2 stone, and with that knowledge, they still want the D/IF stone. Ego? Sure it is......no different from the ego of wanting others to notice a 3 carat honking stone.

To each his own.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
Some people KNOW that the eye absolutely cannot discern the difference between the D/IF stone and the F/VS2 stone, and with that knowledge, they still want the D/IF stone. Ego? Sure it is......no different from the ego of wanting others to notice a 3 carat honking stone.

To each his own.




----------------

I understand to each his own. That's what makes for an interesting world. Not to mention customers for different diamonds. My ultimate point is that I believe many do not realize the insignificant difference of visual pleasure & performance between a D/IF & G/VS stone. If they are informed with the knowledge of no preceived difference, and still choose the D/IF then so be it. Diamonds are adornment - not a piece of paper.

FOR THE RECORD, My 3 c is not about ego. Quite frankly, I am embarassed by stranger's comments. I honestly did not expect it. It blows my mind that all of a sudden I'm "normal" one day & "rich" the next. Geez......even inheritances don't happen over night! Should have I expected it? Yes, but I am naive. That said, NO ONE has dissed the stone. Granted I don't wear I/SI w/ med/strong blue/ very good make but no ideal to a cut nut. BUT, people just see the size. That's all I see. And, I'm glad! With my new eye presciption, *every thing* has shrunk! Having done the small perfect stone & the not so perfect big stone, I am simply imparting my experiences. Call me crazy, but I kinda even *like* the imperfections in my stone. Sort of like a person whose features shouldn't make them attractive, but the way the features are arranged & the way they carry themselves make them attractive.

Do I think buying a D/IF is a waste of money. Yes. For the very reason that a G/VS stone is quality.

Hess, as an aside, No I would not have chosen a 3c D/IF stone. I would have been scared to death to wear it every day. I really would have no satisfaction from wearing something *so* expensive w/ little to no return of eye enjoyment.

Gosh, now I've had too much coffee

Yes, I remember Jlim. I wonder where he went. As I recall, us girls turned him around a tad - as stubborn as he was.

I'm not dissing anyone's choices. Just voicing my own opinion based on experiences.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 8/13/2003 11:55:46 AM fire&ice wrote:

FOR THE RECORD, My 3 c is not about ego. Quite frankly, I am embarassed by stranger's comments. I honestly did not expect it.

----------------

F&I, didn't mean to offend, but here's what you said in the previous post:

"While my little stone (.70) would get a "pretty stone" sometimes, my ring virtually was ignored. ......I secretly seethed at the larger (even crappy) stones that got attention. One can not proclaim - but mine's a F/VVS Ideal cut stone - pay attention to me!"

Where I come from, feeling slighted that your smaller diamond was *ignored* and subsequently getting a larger stone (which you already know from watching others does get attention) is indeed ego.....and there's nothing wrong with that. We all have ego factors to deal with.

As far as you weren't expecting it......how could you not expect it when it's the very behavior you noticed (and seethed over) with others' large stones prior to getting a 3ct honking ring? Doesn't make sense to me.

Again, I'm not being critical at all......just sharing my experiences, too.

 

[Mara]

I'll throw in my two cents...my appraiser noted to me that every diamond, when worn daily, in an exposed setting (like a 4 or 6 prong etc), will chip along the girdle over time. Makes sense, we bang our hands all the time. Even if the chips are minute, they're still there.

If that is true..and I'm sure it is since she's been around the apraisal block many a time or 10...why would anyone bother with clarity purity? Even if you get an IF or FL, it won't stay that way for long if you plan to wear it like rings were meant to be worn *and* over a long period of time. If you want something that is pure D FL or whatever, put it in a glass box and admire it in your house...don't wear it on your hand.

Recently PQ bought her lovely ACA from WF and put it into a pendant. One of her last posts a few weeks ago was something about her wanting to have it re-set into a ring, she didn't like that others could see and appreciate it but she couldn't. I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment! I want diamond rings for every finger. Sure I'd like to have a pendant and I love my earrings but it'd be fun to wear them all on my hands so that I could see how they catch the light...mmmm. I want visual satisfaction.

Diamonds are meant to be worn, not put onto a pedestal and worshipped. If you are about to buy something that you feel uncomfortable wearing because it was so expensive, or it's IF or similar...don't buy it for everyday use. Put that money towards something you will feel comfortable with and want to wear daily.

Oh and to the original poster...stick with the VS2..don't waste your money on VS1. I also want to point out that your numbers could use a little analysis....you should get the crown and pavilion angles for posting to see what sort of cut these stones are. AND I also want to point out that you probably have a pair of slightly larger spread stones due to the larger tables and slightly shallower depths. These stones MAY have more white brilliance than fire...so I would definitely not spend my money on D or E with this type of stone. It will only make the stone look *whiter* and obscure more of the fire IMO. My stone is a G and it's very white brilliant, larger table, larger spread and it's pretty darn white as it is....blinding white at times almost!! I can't imagine it in an D or E--it'd be too white.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 8/13/2003 12:16

8 PM aljdewey wrote:



As far as you weren't expecting it......how could you not expect it when it's the very behavior you noticed (and seethed over) with others' large stones prior to getting a 3ct honking ring? Doesn't make sense to me.

Again, I'm not being critical at all......just sharing my experiences, too.



Well, it makes sense to me. Also, this was 20 years ago. I don't know if I was capable to make that leap w/ my againg brain. This was when everyone was comparing stones (all of engagement age). It's something I remember as hurtful - not necessarily envy. I was under the illusion that one *could* see a difference. One can't. I had real mixed feeling.

Years into the marriage, Hubby inherited my "intended" engagement ring (long story). He proposed again w/ that ring. It is an OEC 1.25c G/SI1. It is in an illusion setting (original) that makes the diameter of the stone appear to be that of a 1.75c stone. That is what I've worn until our anniversary. So, the size upgrade to me was not as dramatically noticeable.

The reason why I was interested in a big "honker" (and I say that tongue in cheek as slang) was two fold. The family ring will be passed down at an appropriate time. Two, Hubby always called my original stone as my "starter" stone. It was special to me to afford such a luxury that *my* once "pauper student" husband bought me. I see that ring & it denotes years of hard work. Plus, I honestly think it's beautiful. I wear it in the country house w/ no one around for acres. I don't think I'd be doing that if it was for my ego of other's noticing it.

No, I did not expect the reaction. By reaction, I mean some real dynamics. Somehow, the family diamond didn't count because money was not spent on it. Keep in mind, to many, this is my only outward sign of "wealth". You can believe me or not - it caught me (and hubby) completely off guard. Not that people wouldn't notice - just their reaction - some in a good light - some in a not so good light. One family member lectured other family members on my stupid purchase. Doesn't she know that diamonds aren't worth anything? It was quite hurtful. A family member chalked it up to the green eyed monster. A few months later, they drive up in a "luxury" car. Go figure. But, at least I had the good grace of congratulating them on something *they* felt important.

Ego, semantics - My big ring satifies *my* ego. It was not purchased for others to *raise my* ego.

All that said, my whole point & getting back to the issue at hand, diamonds are adornment. Why buy something like a D/IF instead of G/VS if one's eye can not discern a difference? As I stated, armed with the knowledge that one can not perceive a visual difference and the choice is still D/IF, then so be it. I'll agree to disagree.

It's just that with many, the diamond purchase spins out of control. I offer my experiences.

BTW, even when compared side by side in their settings, I can not see any difference in color between my F, G or I - except, of course, in size!

I think this diamond ego thing has been discussed over & over. I think we need to start a thread on equating size of diamond w/ love. Or better yet, quality w/ love.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 8/13/2003 1:45:30 PM fire&ice wrote:

Ego, semantics - My big ring satifies *my* ego. It was not purchased for others to *raise my* ego.

All that said, my whole point & getting back to the issue at hand, diamonds are adornment. Why buy something like a D/IF instead of G/VS if one's eye can not discern a difference? As I stated, armed with the knowledge that one can not perceive a visual difference and the choice is still D/IF, then so be it. I'll agree to disagree.

----------------

Again, F&I, I completely agree. I think we're actually coming at this from the same perspective.

I am of the same mind as you....why buy something if one's eye cannot discern a difference. I feel exactly the same way. There is NO way I'd buy a D, IF when I could get a G/H, VS2, SI-1 and get what I perceive to be better value for my money without making ANY visual sacrifice.

But not everyone sees it that way, and that's all I was getting at when I asked Blab to tell us what's important to him. I had the same concern.....is he hung up on clarity because he's ill-informed or is he aware that there is no visual difference but just wants it anyway?

Yes, diamonds are adornments, but for some (not all, but some) people, it's about more than that. It has sentimental connotations.....how many times have we heard the guys here say, "I want to give her the best ring I can within my means." Some people would NEVER trade-up; others aren't sentimental about it at all and can't wait to trade up.

You said your big diamond satisfies *your ego*, it's not about *raising* your ego. I think the same is true for some people on the color/clarity thing.....they *know* there is no discernable eye difference (because everyone on here tells them that 14 times, like we did to Jlim), and they'll acknowledge that the eye cannot see it, but they still want to revel in the knowledge (satisfy their egos?) that they bought an e/vvs, or whatever.

There have been guys who came on here and said, "All I care about is getting a diamond for my gf that is bigger/better color/better clarity than what her friends have." I personally think that's the stupidest way to set one's criteria for a diamond, but if that's what makes one guy tick and HE's purchasing, then go for it. Doesn't mean I agree with the thinking.

And, please, please PLEASE.....no thread about the "diamond equates to love" thing.....I almost passed out from the meltdown I felt when Dimonbob made a ludricrous statement to that effect a week ago. My heart hasn't recovered, and there isn't enough coffee in the world to settle me down on that one!

 

[aljdewey]

 

[fire&ice]

But, with Jlim & perhaps the other guys, I'm a big believer in "it's not what *you* want to give her; it's what *she* may want to have"

Tric disagrees w/ me on this issue (it's nice to see you around BTW). A gift should be given with the uptmost thought of the receiver. *She's* the one who will wear it for a long long time. It's about what she may want (provided she can make an informed decision)not about what *they* want to buy.

That said, most women want a sizable "pretty" stone. The specs are less important. If & when you find the women who *really* wants the D/IF specs than have at it. BUt, that is not the typical case.

Again, that Las Vegas bet - all day long I'd take the women choosing the 1c G/VS2 stone over the .60 D/IF. I may be wrong on occassion; but, I'd still be laughing to the bank.

That's my point. It's not about what blab thinks about clarity. It's what his to be may think within his reason. It's not that I did not appreciate my hubby wanting the best. The sentiment was heartfelt. I just wish someone would have sat us down and said the larger H/SI stone is good quality. That is my intention - to sit these guys down & tell them that. And about my Las Vegas bet.

In some respects, it's less about wasting money (although I *do* believe it is)& more about educating what quality & one's perception means. Again, I just can't believe how dinky those small D/IF earrings *looked*. Jlim did eventually come around, albeit he'd never admit it. Orginally, it was .50 D/IF from Tiffany's - no exception & any larger size stone was either too gaudy or compromising on quality. He ended up with an .80 E/VVS from on line vendor. Not what I would choose - but at least he put some thought into it at the end - albeit ad nauseum.

Geez, have I beat this topic to death - all because I have way too much time on my hands today (raising procrastination to an art form) & needed to start my coffee fix earlier in the morning.

But, again - if *both* desires the d/if than go for it.

 

[aljdewey]

Forget it. I'm exhausted from the effort of this......what was supposed to be simple has just gone haywire.

We don't *know* why Blab has an issue with VS-2 quality. His question was "do you think I should swap the E vs-1 for the D, VS2......even though I am bothered by the VS2 clarity".

In a rash of rogue thinking, I thought it would be appropriate to ask a few questions and find out WHY he has an issue with it before telling him to think another way. As it stands right now, we have *no* idea what matters to him or his girlfriend, and I thought it might be a good idea to find out before starting to shred his choices or tell him that his criteria are vain/egotistical, indiscernable to the eye, whatever. Instead of assuming he didn't know what's eye-discernable and what isn't, I thought we should ask him.

People have different reasons for making the choices they do, and it helps to find out what someone thinks before trying to correct their thinking. That's all I was trying to say.