cut vs quality

[ceylonfan]

I''m a little confused... even after all my research. Am I better off getting a non ideal (AGS000) 2carat D VS2 that''s not H&A but still very good all around cut versus a 2 carat H or an I VS2 that is AGS000 and super ideal cut i.e. ACA with a good HCA score etc.,? When comparing apples to apples they are about the same price. I know an H super ideal cut can face up whiter but I can get the D for that. What am I missing here? thanks much

 

[belle]

do you have examples of what you are referring to?

 

[ceylonfan]

this one
http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-156403.htm

versus

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-150433.htm

 

[belle]

well, your examples aren't matching up to your original question which further complicates the issue (the first is definitely NOT ags0, it has a gia report)
i will try to break down both


ags0 by definition *is* 'ideal' so getting a 'non ideal' ags0 is a somewhat of an oxymoron.

in your examples, you showed first a diamond that has no cut quality information whatsoever (with strong fluorescence of unknown color) and a well cut true ags0. you can't compare apples to apples with those two examples.
a 'd' color diamond with strong fluorescence would have to be evaluated further, especially if you don't know the color the stone is fluorescing. and this particular diamond would have to be further assessed to determine cut quality since it is a virtual diamond and no pertinent information is available without bringing the diamond in house for further evaluation. after all, a well cut diamond looks better than any color diamond that is not so well cut.

 

[ceylonfan]

Sorry for the confusing way that I wrote the question. I didn''t mean to imply the first example was Ideal, I was merely qualifying Ideal by putting the AGS00 in parenthesis.

 

[belle]

Date: 1/30/2007 3:19:03 PM
Author: ceylonfan
Sorry for the confusing way that I wrote the question. I didn''t mean to imply the first example was Ideal, I was merely qualifying Ideal by putting the AGS00 in parenthesis.

it''s okay, i''m just very literal. if you want to compare apples to apples, you have to be using apples (and apples!)
a well cut ''d'' color diamond will be significantly more $$ than a comparable well cut ''h'' color diamond. if the prices are the same, you can bet there is a reason.

cut quality can only be determined by having the appropriate information (crown/pavilion angles at the very least) to guess about quality with anything less is not very prudent.

 

[ILikeBond]

Your question seems to be whether cut or color will affect the face-up appearance of the diamond more (I think). In other words, will a "very good" D look as as white/whiter than an "ideal" H. Is that right?

If so, my answer would be that cut should be your most important consideration because it affects the total performance of the diamond, not just the appearance (or lack of appearance) of color. I''ll try to explain.

The reason that a good cut appears to "improve" color when looking face-down is because so much light is being reflected back to your eye, that you cannot see past it to look at the color. Think of it as there''s a person - you don''t know who - shining a flashlight straight in your eyes. Under those circumstances, you would have a difficult time determining whether it was a man or a woman pointing the flashlight at you, right? Same thing with diamond color.

Now, you can buy a crappy cut D and a crappy cut I and stare down into them and the D will appear colorless and the I will appear yellow - but who cares? The primary beauty of diamonds isn''t their color, but their reflective properties, how they disperse light (i.e. fire and scintillation).

You could also buy a crappy cut D and an ideal cut I and, from some angles (especially from the side angle), you will certainly see more color in the I; but the question is would you rather have a clear, but dull/dead appearing stone (the crappy D), or a beautiful, sparkly, stunning stone that sometimes appears a little warm from some angles when you stare at it in certain ways sometimes (the ideal I)?

As far as other people seeing the diamond, too, I think you can assume that most people''s vantages will be looking at the diamond face-up, most likely from several meters away. At that distance it would be very difficult to determine the diamond color anyway. So, in terms of other people looking at it, the crappy D will still look dull and lifeless, while the I appears sparkly and brilliant, and there will be no appearance of difference in color, its just too subtle.

This forum is, in its most basic form, dedicated to the single proposition that, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, by far the most important element of a diamond''s beauty is - CUT CUT CUT

(I have read somewhere that cut affects the diamond''s performance 98% with other factors - color, inclusions, fluorensence, etc. - accounting for the other 2%; to me, even 2% sounds high...)

 

[Finding_Neverland]

As Belle pointed out, you didn''t pick an AGS0 compared to and AGS0 in cut.

Plus, as Belle mentioned, the D has "Strong Blue Flour". In the diamond trade, that''s gonna be almost an automatic pricing discount right there.

You want blue flour in H/I/J/K range diamonds. It will help them appear whiter and brighter. But more than a nominal amount of blue flour in the D/E/F colored diamonds could bring a price penalty.

 

[ceylonfan]

Wow, that explains things very well. Is the first diamond crappy? I guess an HCA score would help resolve. I know WF doesn''t have the angles etc., but maybe I''ll ask. In any event, your response has helped tremendously. Also, the first diamond has strong (blue) Flouresence which some expert posters seem to prefer.

 

[belle]

actually fn, it just states that the fluor is ''very strong'', which even if we knew for sure it was blue at this point, it would still be questionable BUT it doesn''t even state that it is blue.

it''s never safe to assume things. that fluor could be yellow...or orange...or .....green!

yeah...that would definitely warrant a discount!

 

[belle]

Date: 1/30/2007 3:40:18 PM
Author: ceylonfan
Wow, that explains things very well. Is the first diamond crappy? I guess an HCA score would help resolve. I know WF doesn''t have the angles etc., but maybe I''ll ask. In any event, your response has helped tremendously. Also, the first diamond has strong (blue) Flouresence which some expert posters seem to prefer.

i just answered this above.
you can''t assume ''blue'' is the color that the stone is fluorescing. again, another reason this stone would need to be further evaluated. pricing differences aren''t as arbitrary as they might seem!
you definitely get what you pay for.

 

[Finding_Neverland]

Date: 1/30/2007 3:42:13 PM
Author: belle
actually fn, it just states that the fluor is ''very strong'', which even if we knew for sure it was blue at this point, it would still be questionable BUT it doesn''t even state that it is blue.

it''s never safe to assume things. that fluor could be yellow...or orange...or .....green!

yeah...that would definitely warrant a discount!

Good point, Belle!! Whenever I see "flour" I "ass"ume blue.

As generally the Certs or the Vendors tend to claim the color if it''s other than blue.

But you are most certainly right. We cannot assume it is indeed Blue without confirming that''s the case.

 

[ceylonfan]

here is the GIA cert from WF. I''m interested in your unbiased opinions please... the flour is blue.

 

[Finding_Neverland]

Date: 1/30/2007 3:40:18 PM
Author: ceylonfan
Wow, that explains things very well. Is the first diamond crappy? I guess an HCA score would help resolve. I know WF doesn''t have the angles etc., but maybe I''ll ask. In any event, your response has helped tremendously. Also, the first diamond has strong (blue) Flouresence which some expert posters seem to prefer.

You are really gonna have to call White Flash and ask about the diamond. It''s a virtual diamond off the list. The same diamond is listed by 3 other Vendors.

White Flash, or any Vendor, can contact the Broker for further info. If it''s really of interest to you, the Vendor can have the diamond brought in for further evaluation.

 

[ILikeBond]

Date: 1/30/2007 3:40:18 PM
Author: ceylonfan
Wow, that explains things very well. Is the first diamond crappy? I guess an HCA score would help resolve. I know WF doesn''t have the angles etc., but maybe I''ll ask. In any event, your response has helped tremendously. Also, the first diamond has strong (blue) Flouresence which some expert posters seem to prefer.

Since WF rates the first stone only 1 out of 5 stars, I would say it is probably crappy, but I was just using the term in general to explain what I was talking about, not with specific reference to the stones you picked. The reason I did that is because you can draw a more meaningful difference between, say, a "fair" (read: crappy) cut and an ideal cut versus an "very good" and an "ideal" cut.

I''m a fan of strong blue fluoresence, and there are tons of threads on it, including the one of my own I just updated. So long as it doesn''t make a stone oily or milky, I think its neat to have at any color level.

Good luck.

 

[ILikeBond]

Date: 1/30/2007 3:57:47 PM
Author: ceylonfan
here is the GIA cert from WF. I''m interested in your unbiased opinions please... the flour is blue.

If you were trying to attach it, it didn''t work - do you have the cert?

If it were me, I''d just pass on this and concentrate on WF''s ACA and Expert Selection diamonds. They have those in-house and would be able to answer any questions you have about any stones you find (such as whether the fluoresence is a problem; but then again, I doubt WF would bring in and keep any stones in-house in which fluor was a problem).

At your budget, you have a lot of options. Shop around at the best vendors this site promotes (WF and Good Old Gold seem to be the top 2, but there are plenty of others that are reputable), and concentrate on CUT CUT CUT!

 

[belle]

well, at least the fluor is blue

it scores 3.5 on the hca

personally, i would take the better cut but if you really feel you need a ''d'' color stone (and you are okay with the very strong fluor in that high color) then this may be the stone you want.

 

[ceylonfan]

The attachment works for me...it''s the small paper clip under the post. Does it work for anyone else? I may pass on this one but it''s just so tempting that I''d like to hear from others on this board. WF rates it one star b/c the H&A are probably a mess but correct me if I''m wrong this doesn''t necessarily mean it''s a crappy diamond...right? I have very limited expereince viewing diamonds in person but in my expereince the perfect H&A arrows versus not perfect H&A were very difficult to differentite when not using the H&A viewer contraption.

 

[JohnQuixote]

A clarification that bears mention.

WF Ratings indicate overall diamond quality balanced with value, based on our expertise. For in-house diamonds these are most meaningful. However, for “virtual” diamonds - meaning ones that are outside our in-house inventory located with a supplier - we provide a predicted rating as a courtesy based on available data: Low ratings may simply indicate diamonds located with a supplier who has not provided enough data to make a decisive judgment (see the ratings key). That assessment may change with more information from the supplier.

 

[belle]

Date: 1/30/2007 4:17:07 PM
Author: ceylonfan
The attachment works for me...it''s the small paper clip under the post. Does it work for anyone else? I may pass on this one but it''s just so tempting that I''d like to hear from others on this board. WF rates it one star b/c the H&A are probably a mess but correct me if I''m wrong this doesn''t necessarily mean it''s a crappy diamond...right? I have very limited expereince viewing diamonds in person but in my expereince the perfect H&A arrows versus not perfect H&A were very difficult to differentite when not using the H&A viewer contraption.

yes, it works for me. i''m not sure everyone else realized it was an attachment.
wf doesn''t rate the stone based on h&a, they don''t have the stone in house, so it can''t be rated due to anything but the numbers, or lack there of.
i am not saying rule it out, you will just have to have it further evaluated if it interests you.
''perfect'' h&a does not in itself indicate a good diamond but you need more information to make even the most basic assessments.

 

[ceylonfan]

Thanks for clarification John. As long as the price doesn''t go up if the rating changes for the better I''m fine with it Do you have any opinions on this diamond?

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[ILikeBond]

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/30/2007 5:51:06 PM
Author: ILikeBond

John, part of your post (which I highlighted in red) raised a question for me - given the large table and small crown angle, wouldn't you expect this to be a spready stone? Yet, when I compared to an ideal cut 2.28 ct. (K VS2), the diameter is very similar - 8.45 x 8.56 for the D, compared to 8.52 x 8.55 for the K (incidentally, is the .11 mm difference in diameter for the D an issue? - seems on the large side of the variation you typically see). Therefore, is this an indication that the 'thick' girdle really is thick - not just a micron over slightly thick - and therefore hiding weight? Or have I made some sort of error in my assumptions, like the fact that this stone should be spready? Thx!

ILB you could expect a larger spread if the crown and girdle were coupled with a shallower pavilion. In this case the weight is just more in the pavilion on the D. (the D has an 8.51 agd compared to 8.54 for the K – negligible)Here is a pretty good demonstration of how weight can be distributed differently within a diamond.

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/60.asp

As for 'flashlights' - LOL - we all start somewhere and you're doing just fine.

 

[ceylonfan]

I wish there was a local B&M where I could compare the 60/60 with the other cuts but it''s futile dealing with them. Does anyone have pictures that compare the two? Most of the time when dealing with B&Ms it''s the hard sell and merely "this one is beautiful" take a look. I was able to discern color differences in person and I preffered the whiter look. I could regularly pick out the better color when comparing D to F and F to H. Some of the VS2 and SI1s I was looking at I was able to see the inclusion but usually only after I saw it on the loupe and knew where to look. That''s about it for my up close and personal viewing of larger diamonds. However, I bought a diamond heart pendant from whiteflash for my girlfriend a few months ago and they do sparkle a lot more than some other smaller diamonds in my girlfriends collection and so I know the cut is important. My girlfirend tells me she gets compliments on the sparkle as well. Do you think I should go to the trouble and expense of having this diamond brought in?

 

[belle]

Date: 1/31/2007 9:22:37 AM
Author: ceylonfan

I wish there was a local B&M where I could compare the 60/60 with the other cuts but it's futile dealing with them.

just ask to see their 'ideal' cuts

(said totally tongue in cheek!)

Date: 1/31/2007 9:22:37 AM
Author: ceylonfan

Does anyone have pictures that compare the two?

it's not a meaningful comparison if anyone did.
static images can in no way represent what we see in real life.

Date: 1/31/2007 9:22:37 AM
Author: ceylonfan

Most of the time when dealing with B&Ms it's the hard sell and merely 'this one is beautiful' take a look.

i have had the same experiences.

Date: 1/31/2007 9:22:37 AM
Author: ceylonfan

I was able to discern color differences in person and I preffered the whiter look. I could regularly pick out the better color when comparing D to F and F to H.

i was able to easily discern the color differences in stores as well. this absolutely convinced me about the importance of cut. well cut stones have so much sparkle that you really don't (can't) focus on the color. from the side, yes, you can see color but it is not something you focus on.
also, don't forget the impact of a properly graded diamond.

Date: 1/31/2007 9:22:37 AM
Author: ceylonfan

Some of the VS2 and SI1s I was looking at I was able to see the inclusion but usually only after I saw it on the loupe and knew where to look.

i am a fan of good si stones.

Date: 1/31/2007 9:22:37 AM
Author: ceylonfan

That's about it for my up close and personal viewing of larger diamonds. However, I bought a diamond heart pendant from whiteflash for my girlfriend a few months ago and they do sparkle a lot more than some other smaller diamonds in my girlfriends collection and so I know the cut is important.

you are right. cut is the most important.

Date: 1/31/2007 9:22:37 AM
Author: ceylonfan

Do you think I should go to the trouble and expense of having this diamond brought in?

i think you should bring it in because you will probably always wonder about it.
it would be prudent to see it along side a well cut diamond if you could manage it.