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Cut score on Enchanted Diamonds website

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laurenk

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Hello everyone
I was wondering if anyone can chime in regarding enchanted diamonds GIA cut calculator? I see you can enter GIA certs into their calculator and it spits out a cut score.... I can understand maybe the accuracy of round brilliants but as it seems common knowledge that fancies etc are not as easily calculated and so I'm wondering what actual info they use off the cert and what other info they DONT have that may in fact change their cut score.... I hope I make sense.....
 

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Queenie60

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I have asked this of Joshua at Enchanted Diamonds and he tells me it's a secret formula that they use. It helps when you're trying to narrow down the ugly ducks! Not sure how accurate it is.
 

diamondseeker2006

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Use the HCA to get cut information, not ED. ED cut scores for their own rounds do help you narrow down the field. But I would not enter info from stones from elsewhere to get their cut assessment, no.
 

laurenk

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Thanks everyone!! I entered the GIA of my antique pear (that I'm nearly finished paying for!!!) and it said "mediocre" so naturally I freaked out!!!!
 

ChristineRose

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laurenk|1459895613|4015887 said:
Thanks everyone!! I entered the GIA of my antique pear (that I'm nearly finished paying for!!!) and it said "mediocre" so naturally I freaked out!!!!
There's no formula that can reliably grade a pear. Well, there is, but you'd go crazy entering the numbers. You'd have to enter the shape and position of every facet. With rounds everything repeats 8 times, but you still have 7 facets in each eighth. To fully model a round you need 7 * 3 dimensions for position * 3 dimensions for size, and that even assumes that each eighth around the circle is identical. So the GIA formulas for rounds are not a completely reliable way to predict grades. No certificate covers all those numbers for a round, and for a pear, you obviously can't assume any symmetry around the circle.
 

Rockdiamond

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laurenk|1459895613|4015887 said:
Thanks everyone!! I entered the GIA of my antique pear (that I'm nearly finished paying for!!!) and it said "mediocre" so naturally I freaked out!!!!
Hi Lauren,
You have peaked my interest- where did you enter the info that gave you a "mediocre" rating?
 

laurenk

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Hi rockdiamond - I went to enchanted diamonds website and for any stone certed with gia after the year 2000 you can simply enter this cert number and it comes back with their cut grade (so to speak...)
 

Rockdiamond

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HI Lauren,
Wow.

I can only give general advice- not speak specifically about a given vendor.
I find it to be a tremendous disservice to consumers when sites post cut grades on Fancy Shape diamonds. Since GIA does not grade cut on fancy shapes there's just no trade accepted cut grade.
AGSL does grade the cut of fancy shaped diamonds- however even that is not widely accepted or seen in the trade.

The reason trade acceptance is important: Think of EGL which issues grades unrelated to the actual GIA grade- that's another practice I'd call not accepted by the trade.

As to any stone called "Antique Pear"-I'd LOVE to see it- and I'd expect it to be a one of a kind, and totally not possible to "grade" like you would a Round Brilliant.
 

laurenk

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Gypsy

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Personally, I would just completely ignore the ED score.
 

Dancing Fire

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Their website doesn't allow me to view any GIA reports... :confused:
 

ChristineRose

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I'm guessing it really only applies to rounds. GIA and AGS both tell you how they come up with their designations. Their tool knows how to read a GIA certificate but it apparently ignores the GIA cut grade. I'll assume that they don't give exactly the same grade as GIA in all circumstances.

The problem with coming up with an improved scoring system is that not everyone agrees on what make the best diamond. If it's a GIA excellent you are guaranteed that some people preferred that cut to other cuts. It's broad because people don't agree on what makes a diamond beautiful. AGS is much narrower because they focus on face-up, white light return. One of the criticisms of the HCA is that Gary Holloway likes broader and shallower diamonds than most people. He argues that the GIA lighting and placement favored deeper diamonds; others think the GIA setup was as close to real-world as a tightly controlled setup can get.
 

Rockdiamond

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Really good point Paul.
There's a misunderstanding about what a "virtual" diamond is.
Due to the methodology of data sharing, many of the diamonds listed on virtual sites are not available when a consumer tries to buy them- like the stone you're holding in your hand, but it's still available on many internet websites.
When a consumer tries to buy that stone, they will inevitably get a message saying the stone is no longer available, and they may have even paid for it already.
Rarely a week goes by that we don;t see a consumer complain about this on Pricescope.

BTW- if you picked it, I'm sure it's an awesome stone!
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Rockdiamond|1460046659|4016593 said:
Really good point Paul.
There's a misunderstanding about what a "virtual" diamond is.
Due to the methodology of data sharing, many of the diamonds listed on virtual sites are not available when a consumer tries to buy them- like the stone you're holding in your hand, but it's still available on many internet websites.
When a consumer tries to buy that stone, they will inevitably get a message saying the stone is no longer available, and they may have even paid for it already.
Rarely a week goes by that we don;t see a consumer complain about this on Pricescope.

BTW- if you picked it, I'm sure it's an awesome stone!
Hey David,

Just clarifying a misunderstanding: this is not about data-sharing. It is about a word I hate to use.

As for us picking it, please understand that we do not buy in order to sell as CBI. Therefore, one cannot deduce from us buying a diamond that it is a wonderful stone.

Live long,
 

Paul-Antwerp

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With Rockdiamond reacting in this thread, I was thinking about the following.

I am sure, David, that you agree that there is a code-of-conduct among diamond-traders, especially in diamond-centers where sales are often going on with outsiders being in the same room. A very important rule is that an outsider should never interfere in the dealing between another buyer and seller, let alone attempt to poach.

When this so-called neutral service of a cut-scoring-system also leads to the same stone in inventory, that is a classic example of poaching a sale.

Here in PS, we attempt to follow the PS-rules not to comment on diamonds of another vendor, while this website actively organizes the opposite. The system as such is against PS-rules (which may not be enforceable), against code-of-conduct of our business and unethical.

Live long,
 

Karl_K

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If I do not have enough information to understand what a scoring/rating system is doing and why I give it no weight.
That applies to any scoring/rating system not just on diamonds.
 

Rockdiamond

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HI Paul, My comments are about the diamond industry as a whole, as opposed to any single seller.
I agree that it's not proper to interfere in a given sale.
 

Rockdiamond

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Paul-Antwerp|1460049917|4016621 said:
With Rockdiamond reacting in this thread, I was thinking about the following.

I am sure, David, that you agree that there is a code-of-conduct among diamond-traders, especially in diamond-centers where sales are often going on with outsiders being in the same room. A very important rule is that an outsider should never interfere in the dealing between another buyer and seller, let alone attempt to poach.

When this so-called neutral service of a cut-scoring-system also leads to the same stone in inventory, that is a classic example of poaching a sale.

Here in PS, we attempt to follow the PS-rules not to comment on diamonds of another vendor, while this website actively organizes the opposite. The system as such is against PS-rules (which may not be enforceable), against code-of-conduct of our business and unethical.

Live long,
Hi Paul, In thinking more about this, I disagree.
In one instance, a seller gets between a buyer and seller and actively tries to block another seller from making the sale.
That is certainly not ethical.
But say you witnessed a buyer being sold using what you considered to be a deceptive sales technique?
Of course in a diamond trading bourse you'd never know what's being said between the parties, so therefore you could not advise the buyer.
IN the case of cut grades, and internet shopping, it's a public discourse.
Using cut grades unrelated to reality is a wide spread practice on some of the largest web sites out there.
I agree with Karl's sentiment- I place no value in a cut score that's secret- or more specifically, that's not issued by GIA or AGSL.
Having said that, I can't see how the sites using these cut scores are poaching. They are advertising in a manner I disagree with, but it's not the same as poaching IMO
 

ghostm42

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diamondseeker2006|1459894894|4015884 said:
Use the HCA to get cut information, not ED. ED cut scores for their own rounds do help you narrow down the field. But I would not enter info from stones from elsewhere to get their cut assessment, no.
Really? I actually use it on occasion on round diamonds offered by another vendor. I've had the calculator report scores of 97 and 100 on diamonds that they don't sell and some diamonds that they do sell, but at a higher price. I do realize the algorithm is a mystery and they can tweak it to give poor scores to diamonds they don't sell, but I seem to find a decent scoring diamond often enough from other vendors that this doesn't appear to be the case to me.
 

ChristineRose

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ghostm42|1460056105|4016663 said:
diamondseeker2006|1459894894|4015884 said:
Use the HCA to get cut information, not ED. ED cut scores for their own rounds do help you narrow down the field. But I would not enter info from stones from elsewhere to get their cut assessment, no.
Really? I actually use it on occasion on round diamonds offered by another vendor. I've had the calculator report scores of 97 and 100 on diamonds that they don't sell and some diamonds that they do sell, but at a higher price. I do realize the algorithm is a mystery and they can tweak it to give poor scores to diamonds they don't sell, but I seem to find a decent scoring diamond often enough from other vendors that this doesn't appear to be the case to me.
They could also tweak it to give higher scores to diamonds they can sell at a better markup.

It may very well not do anything shady, but I doubt if it is better than the HCA as both are working with limited data. It may have different preferences that the HCA, but at least the HCA is understood so you can disagree with it's opinion. And it can't really be better than GIA as GIA has actually seen the stones and looked at way more stuff than is on the certificate. Of course your opinion of what is excellent may not be the same as GIA's, but again, you can see how GIA does it and disagree. (Many people on this board do not agree with GIA on cut quality.)
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Rockdiamond|1460054708|4016656 said:
Paul-Antwerp|1460049917|4016621 said:
With Rockdiamond reacting in this thread, I was thinking about the following.

I am sure, David, that you agree that there is a code-of-conduct among diamond-traders, especially in diamond-centers where sales are often going on with outsiders being in the same room. A very important rule is that an outsider should never interfere in the dealing between another buyer and seller, let alone attempt to poach.

When this so-called neutral service of a cut-scoring-system also leads to the same stone in inventory, that is a classic example of poaching a sale.

Here in PS, we attempt to follow the PS-rules not to comment on diamonds of another vendor, while this website actively organizes the opposite. The system as such is against PS-rules (which may not be enforceable), against code-of-conduct of our business and unethical.

Live long,
Hi Paul, In thinking more about this, I disagree.
In one instance, a seller gets between a buyer and seller and actively tries to block another seller from making the sale.
That is certainly not ethical.
But say you witnessed a buyer being sold using what you considered to be a deceptive sales technique?
Of course in a diamond trading bourse you'd never know what's being said between the parties, so therefore you could not advise the buyer.
IN the case of cut grades, and internet shopping, it's a public discourse.
Using cut grades unrelated to reality is a wide spread practice on some of the largest web sites out there.
I agree with Karl's sentiment- I place no value in a cut score that's secret- or more specifically, that's not issued by GIA or AGSL.
Having said that, I can't see how the sites using these cut scores are poaching. They are advertising in a manner I disagree with, but it's not the same as poaching IMO
David, thanks for posting but you misunderstood my comments. The cut score thing is irrelevant to my last post.

When Retailer X lists diamonds for-sale, which they have no-access to, and don’t even have a relationship with the supplier, it creates some problems. First, Retailer X is advertising diamonds they cannot actually provide to shoppers, which is a sham. Second, and this is my point, the legitimate sellers of those diamonds are interfered-with and even poached: Their customer googles the report-number and finds the diamond on Retailer X’s website, illegitimately listed, with a distorted price and some weird cut-score info.

Then the customer of the legitimate retailer returns and challenges them with such information. Frustrated, they then contact Retailer X (who cannot get that diamond) who says to them “Oh my you don’t want this low cut score diamond!” and switches them over to another diamond which they actually do have. It is probably bait and switch.

Live long,
 

Rockdiamond

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Thank you for explaining you point Paul!
We're in total agreement that the practice positively sucks.
In some respects the problem comes from the root- the cutter or owner of the stone who allows that first stone to be "fed" to anyone who wants to put the rappaort feed on their diamond selling website. The owner can prevent that.
Also agreed that the practice truly harms legitimate diamond sellers- and consumers.
 

JoshuaNiamehr

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Interesting comments from the trade. I am always free to contact if you have something on your mind as it relates to our industry and the consumers we serve. Im not one for mudslinging but it seems like you guys really are worried about your margins, and customers being poached?

We can de-list diamonds at the request of the supplier. Feel free to reach out. It may be that you are purchasing through a broker and we are listing the source?

Though Im confused - I thought CBI cuts its own diamonds?

I wish everyone nothing but pride and joy in what they do. I personally do this to continue a family tradition and being part of many special moments is really my driving force - creating bespoke engagement rings is no short order and must be a labor of joy.

My measure of success is our referral rate and never our bottom or top lines. Thats how I know Im doing my job right.

We wont sacrifice integrity, quality, service or value to achieve short term profitability rather than focus and commit to providing a pro-consumer offering that establishes long term growth.

I can go on and on and on and on about what we offer the consumer over our competitors, the cut score is just one on a long list of many.

The cut score is independent of whether we can sell the diamond or not. Its an algorithm. There are many many many many diamonds consumers can purchase beyond our selection that achieve high cut scores.

Our cut score is meant for modern cuts - so antique cuts should actually not work with the cut score calculator, nor should fancy color diamonds. When a cut score is low we do state it may be an unrecognized cut.

The cut score has taste built in - AND YOU CAN COMPLETELY IGNORE IT IF YOU CHOOSE. We have always stated that its an opinion.

Regardless of such we always recommend you get an independent appraisal of any purchase of this value. It might sound like common sense but I can't even imagine how many folks never do that. This applies to internet or in-store purchases both.

The reason we came up with it was to ensure clients dont purchase "duds" from virtual inventory worldwide. We started it as an internal tool and then rolled it out to consumers. We dont drop ship anything and pay 100's of dollars in shipping - we want to be certain before we even get our hands on the diamond you purchase that its an absolute beauty.

** Removed by PSAdmin. Announcement of new feature and request for feedback are not allowed per the PS policies. **

Bottom line - we are here to help engagement ring buyers whether they purchase from us or not. I hope everyone has a great weekend.

Best regards,

Joshua Niamehr
 

Rockdiamond

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Hi Joshua
You are correct about CBI diamonds not being available on the database- and the same holds true for mine. So it's not worry about poaching sales or stones in particular which is my motivation for posting.
I think one f the most important functions of this forum is providing consumers with accurate, transparent information about diamonds. Advertising is often filled with claims that might not hold up under close scrutiny.
Say Chevy says their car is "zootier" than Ford because they put secret sauce in the motor. If that claim gets discussed on an impartial form it's likely the messy technical details might come up and debunk the claim.

In general- Joshua what's your feeling of websites grading the cut of diamonds they've never laid eyes on? Do you believe fancy shaped diamonds can be cut graded blind, using numbers only?
 

denverappraiser

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Re: Poaching,
That is to say, offering a particular stone for sale at a lower price or better terms after someone else has already pitched it.
It happens all the time. Both here and on the street. Consumers encourage it. On the other side of the counter it's called shopping. They go into retailers, look at the cert, and then Google the cert number to see if someone else will sell that same stone cheaper. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but the problem here isn't with the consumer or even the dealer, it's with the original supplier. An entirely appropriate response for the retailer is to wish the consumer the very best, match the price or walk away from the deal as they wish, and cancel their account with that supplier. Never again, schmuck. Problem solved.

Re: Bait and switch.
Advertising stones that you don't have and can't get, and then using it as an opportunity to sell something different when a customer ask about it.
That's what we're talking about here. That's clearly an unethical practice, it's illegal, and it IS a problem for the consumer. It's evidence of shady business practices, and if they'll treat their suppliers badly, why should you expect them to treat you better?

Is the Enchanted cut score doing this?

Not very obviously. As pointed out above, the cutscore is presented as a tool for evaluating diamonds, rather like the HCA. If they can get the subject stone, it automatically links to an offer to sell (unlike the HCA). That's the poaching step above. If they can't get it, it offers something similar but different. That's just selling, and they get to make the case for their stone just like the other guy is making the case for theirs. Annoying, but not unethical, illegal, or even particularly unusual.

They don't even very loudly claim it's unbiased. It's their own magic black box, and they're promoting it as a way to choose diamonds. They're fundamentally defining the 'best' as whatever the Enchanted sorcerer who wrote the code says is the best. It's the same general plan as the Brilliancescope. Again, that's annoying, and not very useful, but it's not bait and switch.


Where I do see the B&S issue is in the giant wholesale databases that are the backbone of the 'virtual' diamond sales channel. Suppliers list stones, dealers subscribe to the feed, and then find they can't actually buy for whatever reason. Maybe it's already been sold and the data wasn't updated. Maybe the supplier doesn't like that particular dealer for whatever reason, good or bad. It doesn't really matter. The database sellers claimed they could get it, the dealer took that claim at face value, it turned out to be wrong, and the consumer gets left hanging. It happens far too often. As with poaching above, both the problem and the solution are upstream. Know your suppliers. Don't subscribe to a data service if it's crap and if it makes you look bad to your consumers. Apply your own filters to make sure you're only listing stones that you can both get and are willing to sell. It's not that hard. Everyone who sells virtual stones has an issue with this. It's a bugaboo in the whole industry, but I don't see any reason to say that Enchanted is especially bad about it.
 

JoshuaNiamehr

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No I dont, most of the websites putting our cut grades - AND MAKING IT SEEM LIKE ITS COMING FROM A LAB are not doing the right thing.

Our cut score has more depth than those of our competitors - and use's technologies and statistical data that I would not disclose openly.

Its also being iterated and has a scientific method being applied to its testing and results. And we've always made it clear that its an opinion of what we believe will be a beautiful diamond.

Not to mention - we inspect every diamond before we ship it - every single time.

We hold no inventory - and our ability to offer 30 day returns and have nearly no carry or returns is a testament to our success in providing our clients with highly coveted diamonds at affordable values. We stand behind every purchase with free return shipping, and our engagement rings with lifetime warranties that cover free repairs (even incidental damage) with free two way shipping in the United States.

Our custom rings come with a 30 day exchange policy (30 day returns/exchanges on the center stone) - what other company does that?

Im advertising that in our opinion this diamonds cut is more to our standard than another in our virtual inventory.

CBI is advertising thats they have the worlds most high performance diamonds - AND FUTURE VALUE. I do no such thing - and also I dont see much explaining beyond that they are the best and most precise. Ill blind challenge my best vs their best and see which clients would pick any day. Meet me in Time Square - Ill arrange for security and permits if possible.
 

JoshuaNiamehr

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Neil,

We update inventory on an hourly basis - you openly work with B2C Jewels via http://www.prodiamondadvisor.com/ who has virtual inventory. As well as White Flash - which offers a virtual inventory selection.

B2C Jewels gives a cut grade for fancy shapes... Do they explain it or make it clear that its not via the GIA. Or how its derived?

I can go on and on and on and on - about how online diamond sellers are gaming SEO, SEM, keywords AND THE MINDS OF CONSUMERS BASED ON PSEUDOSCIENCE etc... In the most unethical ways - companies which you recommend.

Our cut score calculator DOES NOT RECOMMEND SIMILAR DIAMONDS!!! It could easily but does not. Where did you come up with that one?

Im assuming that I cant post a link to our cut score calculator. I put in a diamond that is not in our database and randomly selected it off another website... if I were allowed to post the GIA number up here I would.

But the results clearly said:
Cut score for this round 0.24 carat diamond is 60.0.
This diamond is either not well-cut, or has an unrecognized shape.
No other recommendations made - no bait and switch.

Pot calling the kettle black here.
 

Rockdiamond

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Astute analysis as usual Neil.
The one way a consumer can be sure not to buy a diamond that's listed on many websites is to buy it from the person who owns it. There is tremendous value in this. For one thing, they won't end up paying for the stone only to find out that it was sold to someone else, it's not available, only a more expensive one is available, etc,… There is so many bad possibilities in the database system.
The single advantage I can see is price. But even that is not clear cut.
For example, I love SI2 clarity diamonds. When they are eye clean they offer a tremendous value.
When companies like ours that own their inventory buy an eye clean SI2 diamond it is removed from the pool of SI2 diamonds that exists. Over time the percentage of eye clean SI2 diamonds gets smaller and smaller.
Given that when I buy a diamond I am looking at it, I don't really care about the percentages.
But for a consumer, these percentages matter a lot.
When shopping sites that do not own the diamonds, consumers are pretty much forced to stick with the higher clarities. So even the price issue is not black-and-white.
 
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