Cut grading for Princess diamonds?

[amnesiac]

Recently gone on the hunt for an engagement ring. Right now I''m leaning heavily towards buying from a well known online vendor. In any case, I''ve been to a couple local jewelers and one of them told me that the cut grading on a princess diamond does not matter.

He said whether it was Good or Very Good makes no difference at all in how it will look. Yet, in my research I am reading that the cut is the most important factor to look at.

Is he right? Does it matter for princess diamonds?

Thanks to whoever setup this website and forum. A great wealth of information!

 

[Regular Guy]

Cut grading should be seen as distinct from differentiations on other aspects like polish & finish, and it's at least possible your local jeweler essentially was talking about that distinction, which doesn't matter too much.

A minority of grading agents provide cut grading at all. GIA is large, and it does not. Pretty much only AGS gives a cut grade to princesses...and yes...when given, we think it matters, and that it benefits you to look for what they regard as an ideal cut princess, receiving the 0 grade.

P.S. Welcome to Pricescope!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/24/2009 6:20:03 AM
Author:amnesiac
Recently gone on the hunt for an engagement ring. Right now I'm leaning heavily towards buying from a well known online vendor. In any case, I've been to a couple local jewelers and one of them told me that the cut grading on a princess diamond does not matter.

He said whether it was Good or Very Good makes no difference at all in how it will look. Yet, in my research I am reading that the cut is the most important factor to look at.

Is he right? Does it matter for princess diamonds?

Thanks to whoever setup this website and forum. A great wealth of information!

Cut grading does matter IF we are referring to AGS0 graded Princess as these are considered to be of excellent known cut quality, however AGS are the only lab at this time to grade Princess for cut so any other terms used to describe the cut of a Princess such as Very Good, Excellent and so on are debatable and no guarantee of any level of cut quality...

 

[stone-cold11]

Ditto RG. Your jeweler is probably confused about the difference between finishing, meaning polish and symm grade, with cut performance.

 

[FB.]

The way that a princess is cut makes a difference.
A lot of princess are cut with a flat crown, which reduces the "character" of the stone and can seriously reduce the amount of fire.

I would also look for at least very good polish and at least very good symmetry. I'd only lower to "good" symmetry for a fancy shape stone such as a pear. I would probably never lower to "good" polish.

AGA have a god cut-grading system here:
http://gemappraisers.com/oldcutgrade.asp

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 11/24/2009 6:20:03 AM
Author:amnesiac
Recently gone on the hunt for an engagement ring. Right now I''m leaning heavily towards buying from a well known online vendor. In any case, I''ve been to a couple local jewelers and one of them told me that the cut grading on a princess diamond does not matter.

Perhaps this is because the guy is a jeweler and not a diamond vendor

Date: 11/24/2009 6:20:03 AM
Author:amnesiac
He said whether it was Good or Very Good makes no difference at all in how it will look.

Practically every time I''ve spoken with a jeweler about diamond Cut Precision and Cut Performance they tell me that it doesn''t matter... If I''m feeling adventurous, I''ll look towards their display case and say "Yes, I can see that..." to which they respond "W-H-A-T?!?!" and I''ll tell them to pull the diamond which they are most proud of out of the case and then once I have it in hand I''ll pull an ideal cut diamond out of my pocket, slide it next to their pride and joy and say "Hmmm, would you LOOK at that!" and they usually say "Oh" which is often followed up with "Well my clients don''t know anything about that..." (and clearly neither do they)

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 11/24/2009 6:20:03 AM
Author:amnesiac
Recently gone on the hunt for an engagement ring. Right now I''m leaning heavily towards buying from a well known online vendor. In any case, I''ve been to a couple local jewelers and one of them told me that the cut grading on a princess diamond does not matter.

He said whether it was Good or Very Good makes no difference at all in how it will look. Yet, in my research I am reading that the cut is the most important factor to look at.

Is he right? Does it matter for princess diamonds?

Thanks to whoever setup this website and forum. A great wealth of information!

Well, Todd already said it better, so I will say the only part he did not add, as regards to that particular jeweler...

Run Forest Run!

Find someone who was not selling ladies shoes a few weeks ago and who is keeping up with the diamond trade he is supposed to be a part of.

In my honest opinion, cut grading on both princess cuts and rounds is much more important to the beauty of the diamond than either color or clarity. ESPECIALLY for deciding which ones to spend your time and money on arranging to see. As Todd said, it usually takes about one look to see just how much the quality of cutting makes in the appearance of a princess cut diamond.

Wink

 

[amnesiac]

well.. I ended up buying a ring tonight. A little sooner then I thought.

I happened to pass by a jewelry store and thought I would go in and just look to compare and learn and I end up walking out a few grand lower in the bank.

Anyway... I think I was a little nervous and probably bought a little too much on impulse. I''m almost afraid to find out I made a bad deal.

I ended up getting a Princess cut, color F, clarity SI1, cut Ideal, 1.02 carat

set in a "Lucida" band style setting, 14k white gold.

I ended up paying 5000 even (Canadian dollars) tax and everything incl. lifetime guarantee, upgrade available. I don''t think I made a terrible deal. They were originally asking close to 6000 for it. It was eye clean and I could not find any specks or clouds in it using a loupe. (I''m no expert mind you) It looks pretty good in my eyes anyway.. sparkles like crazy.

so anyway.. its'' finally done.. I''m happy

thanks to you all for advising me that cut was important after all.

 

[Regular Guy]

Congratulations!

Now, Amnesiac, just don''t forget...

 

[stone-cold11]

Good luck.

 

[amnesiac]

I don''t know if my luck turned out so well.

Went to pick up the ring and they said I still owed them $1000. I said it was a mistake and they soon corrected that but it really threw me for a loop and got me upset.

Getting the ring in my hands I start to inspect it again and when I first saw the diamond it was eye clean now I notice something with my bare eye as I view it from the side and a bit from the bottom.

Looking at it with a loupe I see something and to me it looks like a crack or chip. I feel the ring with my nail and I do not feel anything. Looking closely at the girdle it does not seem like there is a crack or chip in the girdle. It looks like it is inside the diamond. It seems to come down from the top and then makes a sharp 90 degree angle.. pretty much looks like the letter L

The retailer claims it is in inclusion which was always there. She offers to return the ring for re-appraisal and said she will have the serial number engraved on the diamond to make me feel at ease that this is the diamond I saw and bought. She said if it turned out to be a crack she would have it "filled" I believe that means clarity enhanced. I don''t feel too good about that.

So a few questions,

1- Can an inclusion look similar to a crack?
2- Could it possibly be a fracture? A crack that is about to occur.
3- Would an appraiser note the crack on appraisal? if there was one or do or say something about it?

Otherwise, I mean, the ring and diamond looks very good. I hope I can get this sorted out soon.

If anyone has advice please let me know.

 

[Lorelei]

I might have missed it but is this diamond GIA graded? It could be an inclusion you are seeing especially being an SI grade and some do resemble ' cracks' such as feathers or a girdle reflection if this appears all the way around the diamond when viewed from the side, if it is an inclusion I would NOT want the diamond fracture filled or lasered!

Also yes a good appraiser will take note of any inclusions or issues in their report. If you look on the grading report it will tell you what the grade making inclusions are. Are you set on keeping this diamond or could you get a refund and start again?

 

[amnesiac]

No, I wish it was GIA. It''s EGL-USA.

I am OK with it being an inclusion IF it will not affect the durability of the diamond.

It can be found with the naked eye however it takes some searching and the right lighting.

I have a feeling that getting my money back and starting over will not go over well.

 

[amnesiac]

If I may ask, what specific reasons would you not want it filled or lasered? If they come back saying yet it is fractured, I know they will push hard to get it filled.

I don''t mind keeping the diamond because of a small inclusion. I do mind keeping it , if that small inclusion will lead to future problems (further cracking/chipping)

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/5/2009 11:50:26 AM
Author: amnesiac
If I may ask, what specific reasons would you not want it filled or lasered? If they come back saying yet it is fractured, I know they will push hard to get it filled.

I don't mind keeping the diamond because of a small inclusion. I do mind keeping it , if that small inclusion will lead to future problems (further cracking/chipping)

Yes of course. Get the diamond clarity enhanced and whatever value and desirability it has should you ever decide to sell it plummets, plus CE diamonds need special treatment to prevent the filling from leaking out - no ammonia based cleaners and you have to warn the jeweller every time your ring is worked on. Also the value of clarity enhanced diamonds is much less to begin with, why would you want to pay full price for a non enhanced diamond but you end up with one which has been treated??

Although it isn't uncommon to see a visible inclusion in SI clarity grades and these aren't always an issue anyway, personally I would return the diamond, get a refund and start over.

ETA - I just saw it is EGL graded, EGL USA is said to be the strongest of the EGL labs but personally I would get a refund and start again and look at GIA or AGS graded stones. If the store doesn't like it, oh well. You want to know you have spent your money wisely and got a good diamond for it, trust me - buyers remorse over a long period of time is far FAR worse than the store not being pleased, people change their minds, get refunds, all sorts of reasons why sales don't always go through, its part and parcel of the business. You want a store who cares that you are happy so you will go back to them and be a long term client, I would not let their feelings come into this.

 

[WinkHPD]

Did you ask to see the diamond under a microscope so that you can see the inclusions up close and personal and see what you think it means to you? As a rookie they know you will not see what they see with a loupe, ask to see it through a binocular microscope and start at 10x before looking at it at higher powers.

If the store has no microscope, then I refer you to my earlier comment above.

Wink

 

[oldminer]

Lorelei;

You said: "Cut grading does matter IF we are referring to AGS0 graded Princess as these are considered to be of excellent known cut quality, however AGS are the only lab at this time to grade Princess for cut so any other terms used to describe the cut of a Princess such as Very Good, Excellent and so on are debatable and no guarantee of any level of cut quality..."

My old lab, AGA has been and still is using the AGA-Cut Class grading system, which I developed, BEFORE there was an AGS lab and continues to grade regionally with this system for several dealers and retailers of diamonds. You will find inside DiamCalc that the AGA grading system is there for all the fancy shapes, too. I know AGS has done a superb marketing job and has created the AGS0 brand effectively, but they are not alone, just more well known through their diligent marketing efforts. Their grading is excellent and I can't argue with their results, but they are neither the first or the only lab doing such work.

The AGS0 princess cut is a very specific cut style for princess. There are other cut styles of princess which would not get AGS0 cut grade that might get an AGA 1A, 1B or 2A grade. I think consumers are best served by having maximized choices across Brand lines and designs, but few people really understand there are viable alternatives. The world of possibly fine looking and well cut princess cuts is far broader than the AGS0's distinctive faceting pattern. It is a wonderful choice, but not the only choice.

Of course, in perspective, there are far more poorly cut princess cuts out there than finely cut ones. All we want people to do is to shop well FIRST and to be sure the one they select truly looks superb to their then experienced eyes while avoiding those defective in cut which might cause the stone to break or to look overly small for its weight.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/5/2009 4:24:54 PM
Author: oldminer
Lorelei;

You said: 'Cut grading does matter IF we are referring to AGS0 graded Princess as these are considered to be of excellent known cut quality, however AGS are the only lab at this time to grade Princess for cut so any other terms used to describe the cut of a Princess such as Very Good, Excellent and so on are debatable and no guarantee of any level of cut quality...'

My old lab, AGA has been and still is using the AGA-Cut Class grading system, which I developed, BEFORE there was an AGS lab and continues to grade regionally with this system for several dealers and retailers of diamonds. You will find inside DiamCalc that the AGA grading system is there for all the fancy shapes, too. I know AGS has done a superb marketing job and has created the AGS0 brand effectively, but they are not alone, just more well known through their diligent marketing efforts. Their grading is excellent and I can't argue with their results, but they are neither the first or the only lab doing such work.

The AGS0 princess cut is a very specific cut style for princess. There are other cut styles of princess which would not get AGS0 cut grade that might get an AGA 1A, 1B or 2A grade. I think consumers are best served by having maximized choices across Brand lines and designs, but few people really understand there are viable alternatives. The world of possibly fine looking and well cut princess cuts is far broader than the AGS0's distinctive faceting pattern. It is a wonderful choice, but not the only choice.

Of course, in perspective, there are far more poorly cut princess cuts out there than finely cut ones. All we want people to do is to shop well FIRST and to be sure the one they select truly looks superb to their then experienced eyes while avoiding those defective in cut which might cause the stone to break or to look overly small for its weight.

Hi David,

I understand what you are saying, I should have made it clear I was referring to the labels used by some vendors such as ' Premium Cut', ' Ideal Cut' and so on where those who are assigning such grades in some cases know little about cut quality, so just trying to point out to consumers not to take such labels at face value to avoid the scenario you describe above. Also I meant that AGS is the only major lab at this time to ' officially' give cut grades to Princess, not that they are the only lab that has been working on this!