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Cut and Color questions

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by BrianHP, Dec 11, 2000.

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  1. BrianHP
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    by BrianHP » Dec 11, 2000
    Hello World,Opions vary,
    when on the topic of Polish, Sym are addressed, some say just as long as it is GD or better you are fine. Same opion on Sym. Then others say it effects the light refracting back to me, so look for EX or Idea. So, would the Polish and SYM have to be Ideal for the Depth, Table, Pav, Crown etc.. numbers to be Ideal? Color:
    It seems I am unsure of color also. I started out wanting an I color, thinking that to the naked eye it would not matter. Now I am thinking of F-H, only because I think it would help in the beauty of the diamond?Like most peeple I think I am just looking for a GREAT looking diamond, but in the case of Clarity= VVS if I can't tell than why get it?Thanks everyone,
    Brian
     
    


    


  2. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    Hi,You should read the tutorial here to get some more information about diamonds and what makes them beautiful.Here is a link to the section on symmetry. http://www.pricescope.com/tutor_symm.asp The section on polish follows.It's really more important to get a proper combination of crown and pavilion angles (adding to optical symmetry) than to get the kind of symmetry (meet point faceting) noted on a GIA or AGS grading report. On larger diamonds, I prefer very good and up, but it depends on the reason for the grading.As for color, I think you should go see a variety of properly graded diamonds and decide what you need. You should see them dropped into settings in the color you will buy and then decide how they look face up. Color is much less noticable when mounted. Better cut diamonds also face up whiter.Go through the tutorial and try the cut adviser for guidance.Hope this helps,lawmax [​IMG]
     
  3. BrianHP
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    by BrianHP » Dec 11, 2000
    Yes, I have read it and where it states GD or better and that SYM and Polish really won't effect the beauty of a diamond. But I'm afraid I've read other places where they try to steer you toward Ideal and H&A. Which is I'm sure beatiful rocks, So you are really saying is that Ideal or H&A really isn't necessary or visual by the eye? That true Cut (Pav etc..) is what counts.Color:
    I will go and look at F-I colors. Would I not have to view them in a natural light verus the store lighting? Thanks,
    Brian
     
  4. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    Actually, I didn't say anything about ideal/hearts and arrows. The stones with good angle combinations show good firescope images. However, there are some AGS 0 cut stones that have less optimal combinations and that do not perform so well. Also, in the tutorial it is stated that in stones over 1 carat you may want to do better than just "good" in a symmetry rating. As I said, I like very good and up-there are EightStar diamonds that get very good instead of ideal symmetry ratings. Getting the perfect firescope image is more important to the diamond's performance than getting the ideal external symmetry rating.I like to look at stones in as many kinds of lighting as you can get access to, including dim light to see dispersion.lawmax [​IMG]
     
    


    


  5. BrianHP
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    by BrianHP » Dec 11, 2000
    And figuring out a good Firescope image is really putting the numbers in the Cut Advisor.I hope I didn'r sound too confused, thanks for all the great advise.Brian
     
  6. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    No problem-it is a bit confusing. This industry is really evolving and many jewelers don't have a clue about any of this.It would be good if you have access to well-cut stones in stores near you to go see them for yourself. See what looks good to you in terms of cut and what you think is necessary.Keep us posted- [​IMG]lawmax
     
  7. BrianHP
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    by BrianHP » Dec 11, 2000
    Great idea, I believe that would go a long way in helping me decide at that point.I think I am enjoying this too much! You are lucky to be in a profession that is changing and has so my different variables to consider. Not to mention, I hope, the personal satifaction of helping people like me.If you have suggestions of a place in the Denver, CO. area?Thanks,
    Brian
     
  8. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Dec 11, 2000
    Hey Brian,I'm a consumer like yourself. I've just learned quite a bit, but don't claim to know it all. I've learned from experts like Garry Holloway who wrote the tutorial and others like Dave Atlas (oldminer), Bill Lieberum (rockdoc), Steve Livingston (StevL), Joe Bacon (Bacon), etc.I did get a new diamond last June (from Steve Livingston) so I was in the same place last spring that you are now. It does feel good to be able to pass on some knowledge. These are big and emotional purchases and it is too easy for a dealer to take advantage of an ignorant consumer. I haven't actually heard of too many great dealers out your way, but they could be there. If you want to see an EightStar diamond, you can go to www.eightstar.com and send an email and they will tell you where your nearest dealer is. I imagine there are dealers of other good branded and unbranded stones somewhere around there. Some AGS member stores are better than non-member stores, but I'm not so sure from hearing other consumer stories that it's always the case.Look for stores with GIA and AGS certed stones. Look for a store with a Sarin machine so you can get numbers for GIA stones. I'll ask some friends about good stores in your area and report back if I hear of any.lawmax
     
  9. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Jan 1, 2001
    Yes it is confusing.
    Especially when the director of the AGS lab says he personally can not pick the difference between Good and Ideal polish between 2 diamonds.
    I have designed the cut adviser sort good from the very many bad stones. In time we will take all factors into account and make it even simpler, but diamonds are an esoteric thing - what 10 people see in 10 diamonds will all be different. The stones that score well on the cut adviser will look good even if they have some minor symmetry and polish defects. But if you want more certainty them pay 20-30% more and buy a H&A, AGS 0 - but still check the proportions on cut adviser because there are still lemons amongst these so called best of the best!
    Garry Holloway
     
  10. BrianHP
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    by BrianHP » Jan 1, 2001
    For some reason I don't think Denver Is the Diamond Capitol of the World :~) Great sking right now !The only GIA or AGS certified Jeweler advertised is Molberg's (AGS) which would apperar to be a good place to start. Would really a diamond rated 3-4 (very good) by the Cut Advisor be great to look at and a good value? Also isn't the ones rated 1-2 Excellent really = AGS000?Thanks,
    Brian
     
    


    


  11. BrianHP
    Rough_Rock

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    by BrianHP » Jan 1, 2001
    Thanks, I am really only interested in NON H&A. I figure if I read everything at least 3 times It will start to make some sence. I am also trying to make the Cut Advisors 5 uses count.
     
  12. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Jan 1, 2001
    I asure you Brian a low number on the cut adviser will identify a beautiful diamond.
    You must still read the minor info like girdle, symetry and polish - but you are now probably more qualified than most salespeople in stores.
    Garry Holloway
    PS if you runout of 'goes and you are obviously genuine, post the proportions here, or contact us and we will help out.
     
  13. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Jan 1, 2001
    LOL-Brian, you're right. The more times you go over it, the more sense it all starts to make.I'm doing some research, but haven't heard a recommendation for a good bricks and mortar in your area yet. Jim from www.Calvindiamonds.com posted here once, but I think he is internet only. (in Aurora)Feel free to ask for more help.lawmax
     
  14. bacon
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    by bacon » Jan 2, 2001
    Don't forget that all the angles are not the same. the crown kite facets will have eight different crown angles etc. cut Advisor can't take that into account. Learn enough that you can rely on yourself or find a qualified independant appraiser to help you.there are no shortcuts. (darn it)
     
  15. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Jan 2, 2001
    Hey Joe,That's why we always recommend that consumers use the cut adviser to narrow their choices and then consult with an independent appraiser. Have you seen the "Is it safe to buy online" page here?
    https://www.pricescope.com/isitsafe.asp Perhaps we can see about adding it with the cut adviser results. We mention appraisers often in responses to forum questions as well.We also write in the disclaimer at the end of the tutorial that, "Ultimately, there is no substitute for an individual, expert consumer appraisal. All we offer is the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff."We hope to add a section on Independent Appraisers as soon as time permits and would value your input.The cut adviser is a great way to help consumers choose what to order from the sea of diamonds out there. How many stones can one person pay to have an appraiser appraise? Most consumers here have never bought a diamond before. They need a tool like this and pricescope is the only place to find it.lawmax
     
    


    


  16. BrianHP
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    by BrianHP » Jan 2, 2001
    Thanks everyone, for the great ideas. I think after I figure as much out for myself as possible, I will then pick out a couple choices to have one sent off for an appraisal.
    You are correct I will need one anyways and no matter how much I study I won't know it all. But, I am starting to feel alot more comfortable.I will keep posting with new info.Thanks again,
    Brian
     
  17. glenncal1
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    by glenncal1 » Jan 2, 2001
    Brian-I am an internet dealer, but I live in Aurora. I currently have a F SI1 AGS000 (.26ct) that you could take a look at. This would give you a good idea of how that compares to other stones you have seen. If you are interested shoot me an email at
    [email protected] Glad to help you find a nice stone whether from myself or another dealer.Jim www.CalvinDiamonds.com
     
  18. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Jan 2, 2001
    Hi Jim,Actually, I sent Brian your number! [​IMG]lawmax
     
  19. BrianHP
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    by BrianHP » Jan 4, 2001
    All,At the risk of saying what it already in the tutorial I will give my view on the color.As advised, I did go to a local store to help make up my mind on color of H or I. I was only able to see diamonds of F I and J.I was able to look under floresant and what was described as a bright light? This I was told simulates natural light best as possible. No dim light settings.The J was out, didn't like it at all.The F looked fantastic, hard to discribe, a bright white. Also had a Ideal cut.The I looked white but just didn't reach out and grab me. This cut was good not Ideal. (cut does play a part)They didn't have Ideal I's Ideal for a apples to apples comparision but..Since I really like the White White look. I am going to play it safe with at least H.Brian
     
  20. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Jan 4, 2001
    Hi Brian, [​IMG]Go for what works for you-just make sure that what you choose comes with a GIA or AGS cert. They seem to make fewer errors when grading than do other labs, although the errors do occur.Your appraiser will double-check that for you. [​IMG]lawmax
     
  21. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Jan 4, 2001
    Joe Wrote>>>>>>
    and Lawmax replied >> Thanks Allison.Joe if the stone is has even good symmetry then there will be less than a degree or so difference between the kite facets. Also do you know that the minor facets are considered to be just that (minor). The AGS, Tolkowsky and all existing systems only ever
    used the average of the main facets. Cut adviser is not different in any way other than the unique combinations of proportions that it recomends that are linked (unlike AGS and all other systems) to a diamonds actual beauty rather than a beuracratic system of plus and minus tolerances.
    ie it is holistic.Now I will not rest until the capacity for all facets and symmetry are taken into account, but in history the cut adviser will be reviewed as the state of the art at this time.
    Garry Holloway
     
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