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Cushion for Harry Winston-inspired halo

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7avocado

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Messages
45
Posting this under a new topic since now we've moved our search towards stones. We spend 2.5 hrs today with Chris at ERD who patiently educated us on Modified Cushions, X-Factor, 8 Main, Old Mine (Chunky 8 Main).

We ended up liking Old Mine the best and are down to two stones.

CharmyPoo and other cushion experts, what do you think?

#1:

http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/1.55-carat-e-vs2-royal-t-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-130658.html
ASET is on the link

#2:

1.70 carat,
7.02x6.94x4.80
G
VS2
table - 57%, depth 69.2% slightly large culet
polish - excellent, symmetry - good
price about the same as #1, $500 less than #1

What are your thoughts? Thank you!!

aset73955a.jpg
 
can they take a pic of each side by side??

im glad your going with ERD and an antique cushion. Itll be beautiful!
 
I like #2, love a larger culet.
 
Given the info provided, I like #2 too. I like the cutlet esp since its an antique stone plus the T is more pleasing to me in that one. I'm not an aset expert but there also appears to be more red which I read somewhere on PS will help the stone appear larger not to mention reflect more light. Plus I personally like more depth in antique cushion cuts.

Since cushions were cut to reflect more light in dim rooms (think candlelight dinners in a time when electricity wasn't widely available), if you have the opportunity, sit both stones in the crease between two fingers and sit in a dimly lit room (turn off overhead lights and turn on lamps) to see which is more reflective. They should come alive and the sparkles should dance! See which dances more.
 
Great advice, especially about dimly lit room. Thank you!

To be honest, both appear to have very similar look when we compared them side by side. One of the considerations is the size parameter (i.e. how large is the area we can see).

#1 is 1.55 carat but measures 7.23x6.77x4.52mm
It's not as close to a square (1.067) as I would have wanted but still acceptable. The viewing area, however, is larger than in #2. 7.23*6.77=48.94

vs #2 is 1.70 carat but measures 7.02x6.94x4.80 (1.01), so closer to a square but provides a slightly smaller viewing area. 7.02*6.94=48.71

therefore #1 is providing the same viewing area as #2 while weighing less (1.55 carats vs. 1.70 carats) and higher color (E vs G). Is therefore #1 a 'better value for money' than #2?
 
Charmypoo - what do you think? I am also emailing with LM, any other vendors to consider for an antique cushion? thank you!
 
I think both diamonds are nice and I like the more square shaped ones. So after looking at all the diamonds, you like the old style better?
 
yes, definitely liked the old style better. i thought x-factor were nice too but antique felt nicer.

have you seen both AVC diamond and ERD's? What were your thoughts?
 
I own an AVC, a 8 main modern cushion, and a couple true antique OMCs. I have seen way too many cushions in the past years.

Each and every cushion is pretty different so you will have to evaluate them individually and can't group them by vendors. Even with AVCs which are pretty consistent in general but still have variances. If you are really examining, you probably should take a look at Victor Canera's branded cushions as well. I would also check out some true antique cushions / old mines from Old World Diamonds.

Price wise per carat - the cushions from ERD and LM will be lower than AVCs and Canera cushions.
 
Check with IDJ too.
I've had a stone offered to me from LM that IDJ also offered at better price. I found out after checking that they both had the same GIA cert #.
Atleast it doesn't hurt to check
Took me a while to figure everything out. But I made out ok :)
 
I would not use the length*width approximation, it is not good enough to compare the surface area in this instance, the values are too close to make any meaningful distinctions. You are also seeing them in person, so unless you can see the size difference, it doesn't really matter what the number is. If you like the squareness of the second one, go with that.
 
thank you! Huge help.

What are your thoughts on how much of the quoted price is negotiable? I am sure there is some room but hard to know how much.

Also ERD is saying they can't provide ASET with white background. Is that a red flag? I'd feel a lot more comfortable with checking out light leakage with ASET with white background vs. black given that we are newbies but not sure how to get it (can i take the stone in question to someone who can provide those images)?

Also LM doesn't provide ASET at all and Perry says the best tool is your eyes. Perhaps if you've been in business for a long time but I am nervous to end up with a crappy stone.

Any guidance/thoughts are appreciated!
 
It's not a red flag that they can't provide ASETs with white backgrounds - they are just not set up for it. If you really need all the technical assessments, GOG would be your best bet.

Having ASETs is helpful but truth be told ... I have lately been judging with my eyes and find that if I can examine the stones in person in sufficient light conditions that I will have a stone that I love. I adore my latest OEC but have yet to examine it with an idealscope.

Not to defend our online vendors but the margin they have on these stones are not nearly as high as we think. There really isn't that much room for negotiation. If you really want a deal and brave enough, venturing into the second hand market can save you loads. Challenge is that nice cushions don't come by often.
 
CharmyPoo - what lighting do you suggest to use for best judgement of a stone?

I am definitely not ready to venture into second-hand market right now. Perhaps in the future :)

Re: nice cushions not coming up very often. Is it fair to say then that majority of what we see on the market are cushions that aren't great because by definition truly great cushions would get snapped up pretty quickly? Perry is showing us a few cushions on Thursday but so far I haven't been impressed by their stats. Of course, need to see them in person but seems that whatever inventory exists it's subpar to specific searches you can conduct if you have several months. Is that fair?
 
Not sure about ERD, LM, etc. but Blue Nile makes ~19-22% gross margin. Not too bad.
 
A lot of people make snappy judgments on cushions because they simply haven't seen nice ones. I would even venture to say that 90% of the cushions out there are yucky but no scientific proof to back it up. The more you see .. the better you understand.

How are the specs not vowing you? Firstly, I know you were looking at cushions with bigger tables but frankly .. I would not buy a cushion with a table over 60% and I like them in the mid-50s. I have had the best luck in the mid 60s range for depth.
 
CharmyPoo|1377658117|3511123 said:
It's not a red flag that they can't provide ASETs with white backgrounds - they are just not set up for it. If you really need all the technical assessments, GOG would be your best bet.
Click to expand...

Long time lurker here in the same situation so excuse me if I'm threadjacking.

I was wondering why it's so hard to photograph a white background ASET? All it seems to take is a pocket light and an ASET scope, I think they're being sold for 30 bucks online and an iPhone could do the job with the camera.

To me the ASET images by companies like goodoldgold are world's apart from erd. With GOG I can tell exactly where the light leakage is and everything is clear. I can see a block of red under the table with gog but with ERD it's a little bit of red that gradients into a black. With erd I can't make heads or tails out of it. The black bacgkround makes it hard to read and I'm really wondering if this is done on purpose?

I got a spiffy idea tonight from this thread. To make this ASET comparable to a white background ASET I added a white background while keeping the reds and greens. You can do this yourself if you have any version of photoshop by selecting a color range to isolate it. To me this diamond now would be hard to recommend IF you're looking for a good light performing diamond.

At the end of the day it's a matter of priorities and making an informed decision. If you luv a cushion that performs terribly with ASET that's fine but you should be able to make that decision clearly!

_9392.jpg
 
I do not think these images look the same. There is red in the original that your Photoshopped version left out

uploadfromtaptalk1377687039953.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1377687055795.jpg
 
JulieN - what do you think is a better metric to use instead of length*width to compare 'finger coverage' across?

CharmyPoo - I know I can't make my eyes to be as good as yours are in just a few weeks. What other handicapped tools do you suggest? I found your notes on table and depth very helpful. Please send any other parameters we should be looking at, as well as what types of environment/light we should be viewing the stones in.

parlesanglais - i completely agree, ASET with white background should be produced easily. I think your photoshop analysis is fascinating although agree with Neil that some of the red seems to have disappeared. I am thinking there's a reason why ASET black background is popular... I just think it's harder to tell the exact light leakage and thus diamonds might appear better than what they are.
 
Ok to be fair let's say that Photoshop didn't pick up 10% red that was on the ERD stone. There is still a night and day difference between it and the aset images of a GOG and now a VC stone. What the aset image is telling me is that the symmetry isn't at the same level as the other stones. Look at the way the colors are inside of the picture. If sellers are posting aset images and they're selling their diamonds based on those images shouldn't they be clear so that a buyer can make a decision? Can I assume that a diamond would be graded as ideal light performance just because an aset image was posted? I went through ERD's inventory and I haven't found a single stone that has an AGS certificate let alone one that has AGS 0 light performance.

I'm currently shopping for a 1.25ct antique cushion. I'm crazy enough to have bought an Aset scope and light. It's been frustrating for me because I've gone to local antique dealers to try to get a deal on a real antique diamond only to find that their light performance is really bad and they're not symmetric at all which isn't what I want. For me it's either get a dirt cheap antique stone or I'll pony up and pay for a gorg. stone from Gog or VC.
 
Weeeeell, first off, the difference between 48.94 and 48.71 mm^2 is imperceptible.

Second, it is just an approximation, because cushions are not squares, it is difficult to account for the bulges/shoulders precisely.

Third, the approximation does not consider the third dimension. While the 2-D finger coverage may be similar, the heavier one may have more presence.

If you are concerned about finger presence, you should use your eyes to judge if one is indeed perceptibly larger.
 
JulienN - completely agreed, on these two stones the area is essentially the same. I am just looking at a bunch more, so wasn't sure whether you meant that in general length*width is not a great measure to use

I am trying to get as close to a square cushion as I can, so hopefully will be able to compare
 
parlesanglais - fascinating analysis. I'd love to see what CharmyPoo and other experienced cushion-buyers think!

You mentioned you didn't see any AGS certificates on ERD's site. They all have GIA certificates.
 
There are a few schools of thought and you have to decide which one you fall in when you are buying your cushion.

One side of the house places strong preference on cushions that are cut to perfection with really red asets, perfect symmetry, etc (this is parlesanglais as I read his/her advice). These are the folks that usually end up with a GOG August Vintage Cushion and I would say Victor Canera's cushions would fall into this camp too. When you buy from GOG, you get great ASET images and a cushion with superior light return, great symmetry, etc - essentially, a diamond that would be defined as technically perfect. This also comes with trade offs around price and size - there are justifications for why they cost more (branded, loss of weight in cutting, cost for research and development to name a few).

In recent years, the revival of old cut stones have led to softening of these stringent technical criteria and judgment of a stone by its overall look and personality. Beauty is not always defined by perfection in technical specifications sometimes. You will hear people say that old stones have a lot more personality and uniqueness. You will see that folks buying old stones usually do not get caught up in asets. It is not easy to find a dirt cheap antique cushion - they rarely come by and are usually not dirt cheap.

Then you have to really ask yourself what is most important to you and make the trade offs. If you want to maximize size and balance color/clarity while maintaining your price point, the diamonds you are looking at from ERD, Leon, James Allen, etc serves this goal well. You are looking at top non-branded cushions that look great to most people with the naked eye. If you absolutely need to know that you have a cushion cut to technical perfection and wiling to sacrifice on size or go up in your budget, then a GOG AVC may be the way for you to go.

As I reflect back on my journey, I bought a beautiful 8-main modern cushion that I still love but then started on a search for a "chunky" cushion. I started with the generic cushions as AVCs was just being developed at that time. I spent a long time looking but something was never right as I was so caught up in light performance and all the tools while being strict on E/F and VS diamond with perfect 1.00 ratio. I gave up on the generic route and bought an AVC when it came out - in fact, I bought my cushion the same time GOG named the diamond the AVC so my cushion isn't even engraved with August Vintage but it is an AVC. During this search, I also saw a super gorgeous true old mine cut and while I loved it .. I didn't fully appreciate an old stone back then and couldn't get over the way the ASET looked even though the diamond was simply gorgeous to the naked eye.

Now, I am really at a spot where I much rather buy with my eyes and forget about all the technical tools. I know this because I adore my newest OEC (and even the one before it) and I have yet to even put the new OEC under an ASET or idealscope. But I also know cut is still important to me and part of the reason I love my OEC is because it has no obstruction at all which is common in OECs. I often think about the old cushion I passed on because it was so unique. Anyways, I am going off track now but you get my drift ...

This is a bad photo of my AVC which is a really well cut stone (high E VS1) 1.7ct compared to a far less than perfect by modern standards OEC (H VVS). Perhaps it is the size or even the setting but I don't need to tell you which one gets all the attention.

charmyoec-compare04.jpg

charmypoo-9mmoec-20.jpg

Pardon my hubby's fingers
charmypoo-9mmoec-19.jpg

http://vimeo.com/60987407 (password: diamond)
 
AVC 1.5 E SI1 August Vintage Cushion priced at $16,677. I know it isn't square but couldn't find any in their inventory that might work for you within your specs.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11218/

Check out this 1.5 I IF Canera Cushion. I know it is an I but it will be pretty white and with the colors thrown off by these stones I think it will be white enough. Priced at 13K.
http://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/g5ainl

For reference, this is the old stone I talked about above. This is a horrible photo but I don't have many of it as I never bought it. You can see some leakage but in real life it was a disco ball. The rarity in this is the beautiful flower pattern - most have the maltese cross pattern. You will also see all the wonky facets and symmetry but trust me when I say this diamond was really gorgeous in person. If I ever see another cushion like this in the future, I will buy it in a heart beat.
omc4.png
 
Wow - Charmy, you did it again! Thank you so much for describing the two philosophies. It couldn't have been more timely, either. We are seeing Perry today in 2 hrs and Chris later in the evening, so this is just great.

My initial inclination was to go for a technically beautiful stone since I am a newbie. But now I am thinking I really do have to trust my eyes. I am just nervous that they aren't trained yet - even spending 2 hrs with Chris last week made a huge difference, and I can only imagine how much better I'd get if I could spend another few weeks or months researching.

Your OEC is beautiful. So far I asked both Perry and Chris to show us only newly cut antiques but I might need to reconsider that. Although it does feel that true antique diamonds are in their own separate category and I'd be starting from scratch there yet again!

Do the dimensions you suggested for table and depth hold true for both newly cut antiques as well as true antiques? Thank you!
 
7avocado|1377785549|3511844 said:
Do the dimensions you suggested for table and depth hold true for both newly cut antiques as well as true antiques? Thank you!
Click to expand...

In my opinion, yes. You can go a lot lower on table size in the old cuts ... even in the 40s if you want.

While you are seeing Mark, see if you can get an appointment with Adam at OWD (same building as Mark) so you can see some real old cuts and see how you feel about them. You may not like them at all.
 
Double post.
 
Happy hunting today 7avocado!! I really like your threads. As I am not a diamond expert, I did not post on your thread yet, but I just wanted to wish you luck! You are in good hands with all the experts here.

I used to have a 1ct bright white princess... Now I have a U colored 5ct OEC. I like old cuts as they have so much personality!! I would not rule them out. Especially since you have Charmy to guide you!!
 
Thanks Acinom and CharmyPoo!

Charmy - will call OWD. Do you recommend seeing both Old Mine and Antique Cushion? Not sure which one is better for my winston-inspired halo.
 
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