Crown and Pavillion %

[balt007]

After reading lots of posts, I can see that the most important thing is to get the crown and pavillion angles. How does one do this? I have seen many diamonds on 47th st, and most don''t have this information? Does that mean they are bad diamonds or that someone is trying to hide something?

 

[balt007]

Thanks Glitter Gal! The diamonds I have seen all have GIA certs already, but haven't seen any crown or pavilion angles.... All I need to do is ask? Do all GIA certified diamonds come with a Sarin Report?

 

[niceice]

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On 9/15/2003 12:26:41 PM balt007 wrote:

No, not all GIA certed diamonds come with a Sarin report.

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We want to clarify this statement because we feel that it might be misinterpreted by some members of this forum... It is not a matter of 'some' GIA graded diamonds being issued with a Sarin or OGI computerized proportions analysis and other GIA graded diamonds not being issued with Sarin / OGI details. The reality is that the GIA does not release the measurements that it obtains for the Crown & Pavilion Angles for 'any' of the diamonds that they grade. Thus third party proportions analysis is necessary to determine the proportions rating for the diamond and usually comes in the form of a Sarin or OGI computerized proportions analysis.

One of the primary reasons that it is important for you to obtain the proportions analysis for any diamond that you are considering is that the selling price of a diamond is largely effected by the proportions rating... As much as 60%!!! To clarify this statement, what we are saying is that dealers buy and sell diamonds based on price guides like the Rapaport Diamond Report or The Guide and each publication issues base lines for carat weight, color and clarity in similar fashion to how the Kelly Blue Book provides values for automobiles. Behind the scenes, additional premiums or discounts are determined by the proportions rating of the diamond, poorly cut diamonds often trade at 60% below Rap while zero ideal cut diamonds trade quite close to 'list' and sometimes 'over list'... The bottom line is 'get the proportions information or get ripped'.

There are several dealers on 47th avenue with Sarin / OGI machines, in fact most of the major players have at least one version of the machine in their office. Both Sarin and OGI Tech. have offices in the diamond district as well, thus it is quite easy and inexpensive for the dealer you are considering buying a diamond from to obtain those results for you... Most dealers charge about $5.00 to run a proportions analysis for another dealer.

Be sure to obtain the full page version of the proportions analysis and not just the little Avery mailing type label version of the results because the full page version will disclose the high and low measurements that the average Crown & Pavilion angle measurements are based upon. For additional information on how to interpret the results, refer to this page http://www.niceice.com/ogi/index.htm on our site or this page http://www.goodoldgold.com/cutanalysis101.htm on GOG's site.

 

[balt007]

Thanks! That is very helpful! Can this test be run on a mounted diamond, or only loose?

 

[niceice]

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On 9/15/2003 3

0:50 PM balt007 wrote:

Thanks! That is very helpful! Can this test be run on a mounted diamond, or only loose?

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Loose...

 

[JC]

Hi balt007,

I see that you are having trouble obtaining the crown and pavilion information for certain diamonds. No need to be concerned. This often happens. There are many that do not have a sarin machine in order to run a sarin report. A sarin report is what shows the crown and pavilion information. So it's not that this information is being hidden from you, it's just that many cannot provide this information due to not owning the appropriate equipment. All AGS reports already list this data on there grading document. However, if you are considering GIA graded diamonds, they do not all come with a sarin report. At any rate, it never hurts to ask. So when you are checking online or with your local retailers, just ask if they can provide a sarin report. However, keep in mind that if you are already considering "ideal cut" diamonds than a sarin report may not even be needed in order to make a purchasing deicision. So if the depth and table percentages are within the "ideal" parameters, and everything else seems to check out on the diamond, than I'm sure with or without a sarin report that diamond will be a great choice. You generally cannot go wrong whenever the depth and table percentage are within what is considered to be ideal. So good luck in your search.

 

[balt007]

Josh,
Thanks! Here's the thing... the table is 58 on a diamond I like. This is just outside of ideal, right? The depth is right in the ideal range. I just called and left a msg to get the crown and pavillion #'s, but i'm not sure they have them, and I pretty much need to make a decision today. The diamond is awesome, looks great, $$$ sounds in a good range (not too cheap, but not too expensive), but the polish and symmetry are both good, and I don't have those #'s, so I'm thinking about passing.... I think i'm making myself a little nutzo over here!

 

[JC]

balt007,

It sounds like a nice diamond. If you need to make the decision today than here is what I recommend. If they have a return policy than buy the diamond. If they cannot provide the crown and pavilion information than take the diamond to an indepedant appraiser during the return period to be inspected. That way you will know "for sure" if you want to keep that diamond. Not only will you finally know what the diamond looks like, but you will also get an unbiased authentic opinion of the diamond from an independant appraiser. The appraiser should be able to let you know all of the information that you cannot get today during this last minute decision. As long as they can offer you a return policy for the diamond, that will give you enough time to take it to a professional to be examined so that you can obtain the information that you need. Hopefully this helps.

 

[MikeyG]

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On 9/15/2003 3

7:22 PM JC wrote:

Hi balt007,

So if the depth and table percentages are within the "ideal" parameters, and everything else seems to check out on the diamond, than I'm sure with or without a sarin report that diamond will be a great choice. You generally cannot go wrong whenever the depth and table percentage are within what is considered to be ideal.
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Anyone else have an opinion on this?

MikeyG

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Ask to see it through an ideal-scope
then you do not need the #'s
If you do get the #'s be sure to get angles rather than %'s

 

[balt007]

What about getting the crown and pavillion angles on a mounted diamond? Is this possible?

 

[Giangi]

I do not necessarily agree that a diamond with ideal table and depth is going to be an ideal cut stone. There are good chances, but could be as high as AGS 0-1 or as low as AGS 7-8. If you can't get the #'s, be sure to make the sale only if you get satisfactory appraisal and contact an appraiser that has the proper equipement. Here on price scope, under the tutorial, you can see the importance of ALL numbers and how they do affect light return.

 

[MikeyG]

;marginTop

;marginBottom

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On 9/16/2003 1:17:18 PM Giangi wrote:

I do not necessarily agree that a diamond with ideal table and depth is going to be an ideal cut stone. There are good chances, but could be as high as AGS 0-1 or as low as AGS 7-8. If you can't get the #'s, be sure to make the sale only if you get satisfactory appraisal and contact an appraiser that has the proper equipement. Here on price scope, under the tutorial, you can see the importance of ALL numbers and how they do affect light return.

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JOSHUA,

Any comments about this response?

MikeyG

 

[Rhino]

No offense Joshua but that advice (if balt really cares about how beautiful the diamond is he's going to purchase) should DEFINETELY know this information up front and not rushed into a decision. ESPECIALLY if he is dealing with people on 47th St. who have no refund policy.




Here is a diamond that tests as an "ideal" cut on the OGI software and look at these disastrous optical results.




http://www.goodoldgold.com/0_61ct_g_si2_ideal.htm




AGS has since changed their parameters for an Ideal cut. Instead of using a pavilion depth of 42.2-43.8% they now look at pavilion angles from 40.2-41.2 degrees but there are many machines on the market that have not been adjusted accordingly. It should also be noted that just because a diamond falls within AGS Ideal parameters (the updated ones) doesn't guarantee a visual beauty all the time.




NiceIce's advice hit the nail on the head regarding GIA's and Sarin's and Gary's advice in obtaining an IS.




Regards,


Rhino

 

[MikeyG]

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On 9/16/2003 5:40:48 PM Rhino wrote:


No offense Joshua but that advice (if balt really cares about how beautiful the diamond is he's going to purchase) should DEFINETELY know this information up front and not rushed into a decision. ESPECIALLY if he is dealing with people on 47th St. who have no refund policy.


Here is a diamond that tests as an 'ideal' cut on the OGI software and look at these disastrous optical results.


http://www.goodoldgold.com/0_61ct_g_si2_ideal.htm


AGS has since changed their parameters for an Ideal cut. Instead of using a pavilion depth of 42.2-43.8% they now look at pavilion angles from 40.2-41.2 degrees but there are many machines on the market that have not been adjusted accordingly. It should also be noted that just because a diamond falls within AGS Ideal parameters (the updated ones) doesn't guarantee a visual beauty all the time.


NiceIce's advice hit the nail on the head regarding GIA's and Sarin's and Gary's advice in obtaining an IS.


Regards,

Rhino
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JOSHUA,
Are you going to defend your statement about the Table and Depth percentage? I notice that the diamonds on your site that are listed as "Very Best" cuts look as though only the Table and Depth percentages are taken into account. Has your company seen these diamonds? If not, how can you truly list them as "Very Best" compared to ones you have listed as "Good" cuts? I am beginning to think that you are selling diamonds as "Very Best" when they may just be mediocre at best due to the fact that the crown and pavillion measurements are not taken into account.

MikeyG

 

[Giangi]

The example provided by Rhino proves my point. You cannot rely only on table and pavilion... There are a ton of possible combos... From great to terrible!

Good luck in your search!

 

[JC]

No offense taken.

I think most of the experts on this board will agree that within the scope of diamonds that have Ideal depth and table numbers some will be more brilliant and fiery than others. From my experience, however (and the
experience of Jim Schultz - the owner of DCD) it is unlikely that a diamond with great depth and table isn't going to look really good - regardless of sarin data. Yes, there will be exceptions but that doesn't mean that buying a diamond on GIA information alone is a terrible idea. That's all I was really trying to say.

As to the Cut Filter on DCD, that is something that has been implemented to help people narrow down the vast list of inventory we carry into some manageble categories. The diamond Rhino put up wouldn't qualify for our "Best cut" section - it's way too deep. It wouldn't even be in our "Very Good" section! It would be pushed
all the way down to the "Good to Average" grouping. When customers call in and ask for additional information about any of these diamonds we always try to oblige! Once again we find that the VAST MAJORITY of diamonds in our "Best Cuts" section end up with great sarin numbers, low HCA numbers, and good IdealScope images. Is it a fullproof system. No way! Is it a great start? We think so.