Cross-Gender Play

[E B]

(Inspired by the Knox Jolie-Pitt thread...)

How important is it to you that your child look and/or act like the gender that corresponds with his or her sex? Does age matter?

For example, how would you react if your young (say, five-year-old) son wanted to wear dresses to school? If your daughter only wanted to shop in the boys section? Would you allow one but not the other, and if so, why?

What if they were fourteen?

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

My nephews favorite color since the time he could recognize colors was barbie doll pink. He has a complete winter ensemble consisting of pink boots, a one-piece pink snow suit, pink hat, mittens and sled.

I''m more drawn to some of the patterns and prints in little boy clothes so I''ll probably cross over if I have a girl and if I have a boy and he wants to wear more girly clothes, then no problem there either.

Shiloh look SO MUCH like Brad in that picture in the other thread. Someone idolizes her daddy.

 

[E B]

It doesn''t matter much to me. If my son wants to wear a dress to school, he''s welcome. My only concern would be that he''d be teased or bullied, so we''d probably speak to him about the possibility (and why) before he intended to do it. I''d be sad if he chose not to simply to avoid being bullied, but that''s life.

I find that people are generally more accepting of girls playing with trucks and wearing overalls than boys taking ballet or dressing in pink, though the younger the kid, the less of a problem people seem to have.

I wonder how the public would react to Maddox in a fluffy pink tutu....

 

[radiantquest]

I just saw a television show about this topic and there is a name for a child that feels that he/she should be the opposite sex. I know that a simple haircut or a favorite color is not the same thing. These parents understood for instance that the child they had that was born a son felt that he was a girl. When they went shopping he would automatically go to the girls clothes and things like that. Some of the parents were willing to give hormones to postpone puberty so that these kids could be the sex that they wanted to be. There was one that was born as a girl and was so determined to be a boy that she took hormones and had a double mastectomy at 14.

 

[Pandora II]

They can wear whatever they want - as it is I think baby boy''s clothes are way cuter than the girls ones and so Daisy wears a lot of blue!

My brother when he was 3 or 4 used to go out wearing flippers, a green swimming hat topped with a plastic Roman centurion helmet, pjs and a ballet tutu. My mother had 3 kids under 8 and was too tired to care...

I might worry about an older child being teased at school and so would discuss with my child ''why'' they wanted to dress a certain way and see if there were other ways that they could express themselves if their dress might be percieved as strange or inappropriate.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

They''re transgendered and children born with both sets of organs (yet one sexual identity) are hermaphrodites. I think the fact that these parents are letting their children determine their own identity and waiting to do surgery is fantastic and what I''d do in that situation. I know that''s not the topic of this thread though.

EB, I didn''t even think about the bullying thing, you''re a wise woman.

 

[somethingshiny]

I am a bit on the conservative side, I guess. I would NOT let JT wear a dress to school. I have let him wear my heels and jewelry. He''s welcome to play dress up in anything he wants including a princess costume, but I draw the line at leaving the house in it.

I would let a girl shop in the boy section, I used to do it myself. Why is it different? Because most girls do wear jeans regularly. There''s really not a "boy" clothing that women haven''t adopted.

As far as toys, I think kids should be allowed to play with whatever they want.

I would be very concerned with bullying even if it was just because a boys favorite color is pink. And, as a mother, I will deter JT from thinking pink or lavendar is his favorite.

 

[doodle]

Couldn''t care less whatsoever...but then I grew up in a household with a younger brother whose favorite shoes were my white patent mary janes, so maybe I''m used to it, haha! I get a kick out of people focusing on the blue for boys, pink for girls thing because that''s relatively recent (pink used to be the color for boys and blue for girls as pink is a more muted version of red like blood, war, anger, etc. while blue is passive, tranquil, and dainty), so I think some of what we define as gender-specific is likely to vary over the years anyway, so why fuss over it? If my son wanted to wear a dress to school, I''d probably discourage that only because it''d be a distraction since it''s so attention-grabbing, and school isn''t the place to be the center of attention; you''re there to learn, but that logic applies to anything that would put the attention on him rather than on education.

 

[rierie26]

I don''t really care. If it makes them happy then it''s ok with me.

When I used to work at a school, the boys would always put on the heels in the dress-up box. It was pretty cute to see them all tottering around in tiny play heels while carrying around their trucks and things. LOL.

 

[megumic]

Date: 2/25/2010 7:42:57 PM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
They''re transgendered and children born with both sets of organs (yet one sexual identity) are hermaphrodites. I think the fact that these parents are letting their children determine their own identity and waiting to do surgery is fantastic and what I''d do in that situation. I know that''s not the topic of this thread though.


EB, I didn''t even think about the bullying thing, you''re a wise woman.

Slight diversion/thread jack in reference to the above:

NPR''s This American Life recently did a segment with two 7 or 8 year old girls who are transgendered. I''m writing my law comment on transgender couples and their status legally, so this was relevant, but it is beyond fascinating. I encourage all to take a listen, you can find the episode and hear it free here:This American Life. On the left below the image click full episode of Somewhere Out There, and the story is the 2nd segment, about 29 minutes into the program.

 

[megumic]

And to answer the thread, I don''t have children yet, but I anticipate encouraging our children to explore all types of dress, activity, play, etc., not just those "applicable" to his/her sex.

I think age makes a difference, but I think I would handle it similarly and age-appropriately. I also think it would depend on whether this sort of thing had occurred previously, or was all of a sudden.

 

[steph72276]

Ok, this is going to come across as way "un PC" and all, but here it goes anyway. While I would (and do) encourage my boys to play with dolls and tea sets and other traditionally girly things, I draw the line at them wearing dresses. I taught preschool and Kindergarten and I can tell you they would get laughed at the entire day if they went to school in dresses, trust me. And you would also have an upset teacher that has had to deal with the laughing, making fun, and hurt feelings all day as well. As long as I''m buying my children''s clothes, I will pick out what I feel like is appropriate....when they start working and want to buy their own clothes, they can decide what to wear at that point.

 

[Erin]

My sister is transgender and she always quips "Sex is between the legs and gender is between the ears." She''s very Chastity/Chaz Bono.

 

[IloveAsschers13]

Date: 2/26/2010 9:18:46 AM
Author: FL Steph
Ok, this is going to come across as way 'un PC' and all, but here it goes anyway. While I would (and do) encourage my boys to play with dolls and tea sets and other traditionally girly things, I draw the line at them wearing dresses. I taught preschool and Kindergarten and I can tell you they would get laughed at the entire day if they went to school in dresses, trust me. And you would also have an upset teacher that has had to deal with the laughing, making fun, and hurt feelings all day as well. As long as I'm buying my children's clothes, I will pick out what I feel like is appropriate....when they start working and want to buy their own clothes, they can decide what to wear at that point.

Yes, if they came to school in that. BUT if they are at school playing dress ups, it has a lot to do with the other children and the teachers. Granted I work in a daycare, but about three of kids are 5 and 2 of them are boys and still wear the dress dress-ups and have fun and do not get laughed at. I think that would occur more in upper el grades like 3rd-5th and beyond, because of the norms the children have already been exposed to while in the school system.


ETA I also think we kind of have a backwards attitude, because I personally could care less about a girl wearing trousers and boy colored sweaters and shirts only- tons of girl clothes are "boyish" while you don't see the opposite.

 

[E B]

doodle and Steph have a point. I wouldn't want my son's (or hypothetical daughter's) attire to distract the entire class, be it a dress or a Batman costume.

megumic- Thank you for the link! I'll listen to it later when I get a chance.

I can't imagine what it'd be like as a parent to a *possibly* transgendered child, having to make the decision- hormones or no hormones? I don't even know what I'd do. I guess it'd depend on the age of the child and how long they'd been exhibiting the behavior.

Oh, and I really didn't mean for this to be a "one right answer" kind of thread, because there isn't one right answer. Even though I'd allow my son to dress in pink and play with barbies, right now he's all in blue, and I choose his clothing. I can't deny I dress him in a lot of blue/green/brown because it's the 'norm' for baby boys.

 

[Haven]

When my sister was younger she used to wear only boy''s clothes and a baseball cap *at all times.* I think this lasted from age four through the eighth grade. People used to think she was a little boy all the time, she played with the boys, she walked like a boy, she wore her pants low on her waist, and if you asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up she''d respond "I want to ride a motorcycle and be named Dick."

Nobody knew where she got it, but my parents just let her be.

Somewhere between 8th and 9th grade she developed a desire to look more like a girl, she stopped wearing hats, and she made friends with a couple of girlie girls.

Now she''s 24, not a girlie girl but not a tomboy either, and engaged to a young man.

I think it was right of my parents to let her dress the way that made her most comfortable. It certainly didn''t seem to do her any harm.

To this day the family dentist says "What? No hat?" every time she goes to see him. It''s been *years* since she lived in her hats, but he still remembers.

 

[steph72276]

I do think it's more acceptable for girls to dress like boys, after all pants and hats on a girl wouldn't draw the attention a boy wearing a dress would. And I agree little boys like to play dress up in dresses sometimes, but it seems as if it becomes something they don't normally do by pre-k age, where peer influence becomes an issue.

 

[cara]

OK not a parent yet so this is all hypothetical for now...

I think this can be a much harder question than it at first appears... When does a child''s play preferences become a real sign of a child''s gender identity?

I might want to spare my 5-8 yro boy the humiliation/peer consequences of wearing a dress to school or decking himself out in pink, but what if it is driven by real gender identity issues? Am I doing him any favors by trying to fit him into the boy box for as long as possible? In postponing the reckoning, is it actually increasing his pain and sense of not fitting in or not being accepted for who his is, even by his parents?

I agree with the others on several points...
-No harm in a little cross-dressing as play...
-Especially with the really little ones, I don''t think there''s anything to worry about even if its bordering on obsession. My little brother wanted nail polish at age 3, seems perfectly normal if all you have is big sisters!
-Girls will have a much easier time with the cross-dressing than boys, both because it is often OK for girls to wear ''boy'' looking clothes, and because a tomboy is a much more accepted creature than a feminine little-boy.
-Sometimes its better to let peer pressure do a little of your work as a parent. I mean, of course parents want to spare their kids trauma and being picked on, but ... there is a place for warning them and letting them make their own choice if you are reasonably certain of their safety in the fallout.

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Date: 2/25/2010 8:43:13 PM
Author: somethingshiny
I am a bit on the conservative side, I guess. I would NOT let JT wear a dress to school. I have let him wear my heels and jewelry. He''s welcome to play dress up in anything he wants including a princess costume, but I draw the line at leaving the house in it.

I would let a girl shop in the boy section, I used to do it myself. Why is it different? Because most girls do wear jeans regularly. There''s really not a ''boy'' clothing that women haven''t adopted.

As far as toys, I think kids should be allowed to play with whatever they want.

I would be very concerned with bullying even if it was just because a boys favorite color is pink. And, as a mother, I will deter JT from thinking pink or lavendar is his favorite.

I agree with you. My son is only 1.5 years and he''s a boy all the way. No long hair or pink clothes for him. He has some girly toys that he plays with but that''s about it. There''s no way in heck DH or I would allow him to leave the house in girls clothes.

 

[vespergirl]

My 3 year old son has mostly traditional boy interests (trucks, cars, trains, golf, soccer, basketball, football, etc.) but when he first walked into his preschool last Sept., he couldn''t wait to play with the kitchen, shopping cart and stroller. I thought it was a hoot, and the teacher asked if we had any of those "girl" toys at home - when I said we didn''t, she said it was really common for boys without sisters to want to play with the "girl" toys when they first come to school because it''s new and different from what they have at home. Now she says that he plays with both types of toys equally.

When DS was 2, he decided that his favorite color was pink for about a 6 month period - not for clothes, but he was obssessed with balloons, and every Sat. when we went to the farmer''s market with the balloon animal guy, he would choose a pink balloon to make his sword (like I said - he loves "boy" stuff, he just wanted it in pink

) There was a lady in line behind us once with her little boy, and after he saw Andrew''s balloon, he requested a pink one as well. She said, "No, pink is for girls, you need to choose another color" while shooting me a look. I just shook my head and thought that would probably mess the kid up more than just letting him have what he wanted - kids that small don''t attach gender to color. A few months later, Andrew switched to blue as his favorite color, and when he was helping to choose a paint for his new big boy room, he insisted on all blue instead of the green that I thought would look better with his decor.

A few weeks ago, Andrew was watching me put on my jewelry, and asked if he could wear a strand of pearls. I gave him an old strand of plastic costume pearls, and he wore them with his sweatsuit, soccer uniform & pyjamas for about 2 days straight, and then totally lost interest. If he had wanted to wear them to preschool I would have let him, but by the time he went back he had already grown tired of it.

Kids go through these things in phases - they are curious about everything, and don''t think of what is for boys or girls - they just want to experiment. I think that if you just let them try things out, the curiosity is satisfied & they move on. For them, it''s about dress up and having fun - I think that grownups can read too much into things, and make too much of them.

 

[phoenixgirl]

I''ve only been doing it for four months, but I''m getting the distinct idea that parenting is no easy task.

I wouldn''t be personally upset if my (hypothetical) son wanted to dress like a girl (or vice versa or whatever), and I wouldn''t stop him because I was afraid it meant he was too feminine or anything like that. But I also recognize that doing so could cause him difficulty from the reactions of other children, so I think I would have to take it on a case by case basis. The most important thing would be for him to know that his parents love and accept him, and that no matter how others might feel, we don''t believe there''s anything wrong with playing dress-up. And of course, if he was actually transgendered and not just experimenting with dress-up, we''d accept that too. We give our children life so they can find happiness and make a life for themselves; that''s all we want for our kids.

 

[Sabine]

I think in my head I''m a lot more liberal than I really am!

My head wanted to reply that it wouldn''t matter to me. But then I remembered that the other day, all the spoons I usually feed ds with were dirty so I opened the drawer and pulled out the pink and purple spoon, and although I had no problem using it, I made the comment to dh that since mommy didn''t do dishes, ds had to use the girly spoon. Previously I had been using only the blue/green, green/orange and red/yellow spoons.

Although he has some gender-neutral clothes, I''ve never dressed him in anything girly. And since he''s our first child and isn''t old enough to really pick out his own toys, I''ve only bought him boy toys or gender neutral toys. And now that I''m thinking about it, I bought him an activity table on craig''s list, and I specifically looked for the one with the blue legs instead of the pink legs.

I was doing all this stuff unconsciously, but I''m glad this thread brought it to my attention. I''m going to have to do some thinking about where my urges to only give him "boy" things came from and decide if it really matters or not.

 

[packrat]

Trapper had a pacifier that was mostly pink but we never let him have it outside the house. At times when London was little, we specifically bought clothes-sweats and jammies, that would "technically" be for a boy, knowing that she would be fine in them, and then we''d have them to save for our next child instead of being over run w/cupcakes and fairies.

Trapper likes to play dress up w/London, and we have a shortage of things to dress up in. She has a button down western dress that she wore as a cowgirl for Halloween, a couple years ago, that Trapper wore as a duster this past Halloween, and nobody noticed. London has make up to play w/, and Trapper likes to do it too. It doesn''t bother me, but I tell you what, there are no words to describe how ticked JD gets when they come out of the bathroom and T has make up all over his face. I see it as playing, JD sees it as his son being a girly boy.

Last year when my brother was home the kids were playing dress up, and T had on the duster, London''s khaki and pink winnie the pooh boonie hat, a rainbow colored hawaiian lei, and a fairy wand. My brother and I thought it was CUTE, and JD came UNGLUED. London dressed him up-it''s fun, and I used to dress my brother up when we were little too. He used to have mom paint his fingernails when she would do mine.

Would I let him leave the house like that, no. Kids can be mean, and if I can prevent him that kind of teasing, I will. (adults are mean too, and if we were at the store and T was dressed all funky like that and someone said something w/in ear shot, there would be problems) My brother used to wrestle in middle school, and he wrestled a girl from another school-she won. Granted, she was bigger and had been doing it longer, but still-he was..in 5th grade I think, and to this day, people remember, and they harp on it. Boys have a harder time w/girl stuff, and I don''t want T to be teased. We were teased enough as kids w/out adding to it by dressing like a girl in school. (well, I dressed like a girl haha, I meant my brother and T)

London plays with trucks at times, with Trapper, and Trapper plays dolls etc at times with London. They don''t have other siblings of the same sex, so I don''t see a problem w/it..JD doesn''t like it but I don''t personally see it as something that will "make a boy gay" or mess them up in some way. Cooking and cleaning and laundry are generally seen as women''s chores and there''s plenty of men that do them, so what''s the difference.

If Trapper wants to be in dance, I''ll let him. I''ll have to fight JD about it I''m sure. I see nothing wrong with it. Patrick Swayze danced.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

DH is very big on gender neutral clothes and toys. I don''t much care.

Amelia wears mostly jeans which would be fine for either boys or girls, and she has some cute tops in pink and plenty in blue and green. I don''t have a son, but I don''t imagine I would care what he wore in terms of colour or style either. I think there are bigger battles. I wouldn''t put him in a dress, but then I''ve never put my girl in a dress either.

My friend''s husband went crazy when their 5 year old son tried on some lipstick and perfume at a bbq last summer. I thought it made him look insecure and foolish, more than manly (the grown up, not the child). He''s a jackass at the best of times, though, so maybe it was the individual rather than the reaction that I found tedious.

DH had an older sister and they grew up in an era when clothes were expensive and hard to come by, not long after rationing ended. He had a lot of pretty dresses, re-cut and sewn to look (marginally) more boyish. I found some fantastic photos of that!

He didn''t get teased so much, because all the kids were in hand-me-downs like that. It was the era of make do and mend. Children can be very cruel, but I suspect that any teasing now would be self limiting to an extent, because if it really bothered the child, s/he would probably want to dress differently fairly quickly thereafter.

All in all, it isn''t something I would worry about, personally.

 

[Maisie]

I wouldn''t let my son go to school wearing a dress. He would be tormented by the other kids. If he really wanted to wear girls clothes he can do that in the safety of his home. If he wanted to dress like that as an adult he is more than welcome.

 

[Haven]

It's interesting to read that so many people don't think it's a big deal for a girl to dress like a boy.

When I shared about my sister, I meant that she looked like a boy. She did not look like a girl dressed in boys' clothes. People mistook her for a boy very often.

I find the general sentiment that it's not such a big deal for a girl to dress like a boy interesting because my parents got a lot of negative feedback from a lot of people during my sister's boy-phase. IRL, people were not that open to it at all. I remember a lot of comments coming from a lot of different places. They didn't phase my parents, but people generally did not approve. Good thing they didn't need others' approval, right?

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Haven, I thinik you''ve put your finger on the point - do we care what other people think about our parenting choices (or our choices in general)? Some people do and pay attention to the image they project to others. Some people don''t care and live accordingly. No right or wrong, just different values there.

I suppose if two parents are on the same page with any parenting choice, it doesn''t matter. The problem (as I see it) would be when they differ significantly.

 

[Pandora II]

Just intrigued here... for those whose husbands freak out if their son plays or wears girly stuff, how would they deal if their son/daughter turned out to be homosexual?

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 3/1/2010 5:52:52 PM
Author: Pandora II
Just intrigued here... for those whose husbands freak out if their son plays or wears girly stuff, how would they deal if their son/daughter turned out to be homosexual?

I guess they figure if they don''t let them do girly/boyish things they can''t possibly turn out gay so that will never be a problem!

My twin sister used to work at a bike shop and she always said it was so pathetic when parents (almost always the dads) wouldn''t let their boy kid ride on the girl bicycles. I was visiting her once and I witnessed a dad scold his son super meanly about it. "You can''t ride that one-it''s for GIRLS." The tone of disgust in his voice was insane. I''m not even sure how he managed to get married if he thinks so poorly of women. Hopefully that man doesn''t have daughters!

My twin sister and I were major tomboys growing up and like Haven''s sister, a lot of people thought we were boys, especially when we had short haircuts. My parents actually didn''t care at all and never pressured us to wear more feminine clothes or play with traditionally feminine toys like dolls. My mom used to wish that we played with dolls because she loved dolls as a little girl, but there was no pressure.

And it''s funny-on the opposite end, my oldest sister was so girly that she REFUSED to wear pants until she was well into elementary school. My parents didn''t have a lot of money when they had her (she''s the first kid) and my mom saved up and bought her this cute Raggedy Ann and Andy pant suit and she would NOT wear it.

Oh and my parents have TONS of pictures of my older brothers wearing my mom''s slips and bras (stuffed with roller skate pom poms) and wigs and smiling and loving every second of it. My oldest sister even had girl names for them-Caroline and something else! She desperately wanted sisters and since she got stuck with 2 younger brothers (until my twin sister and I came along) she made do.

My dad didn''t care at all, and he''s pretty much the opposite of a liberal, open-minded man. Guess we lucked out in the parent department.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/1/2010 5:52:52 PM
Author: Pandora II
Just intrigued here... for those whose husbands freak out if their son plays or wears girly stuff, how would they deal if their son/daughter turned out to be homosexual?

Great question, Pandora. I actually meant to address this in my post, but I held off ...

I would have absolutely no issue if either of my boys turned out to be homosexual, and even though my DH is more traditional, I believe that he feels the same way, as long as our kids are healthy and happy.

Some of my best friends and former colleagues are homosexual, and they are wonderful people, partners and parents. I don''t in any way see being homosexual as a "less desirable" way to be, so it really wouldn''t make a difference to me who my kids wanted to date or marry.