Coward Cop killers in Dallas

[Rhea]

Unfortunately some people respond like this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/joe-walsh-war-obama-black-lives-matter-dallas-article-1.2703883?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

And this:

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

I don't understand. How is Obama, or any president, especially one who has tried to get tougher gun control, responsible for the killing of local or state police by people or the killing of black people from the general population by local and state police officers? Does Obama have any control, direct or indirect, over local and state police?

 

[missy]

Rhea, just a guess but maybe because people like to use Obama as a scapegoat...as a reason for everything that is wrong. Whether true or false. Facts seem to be unimportant to many people.


A friend just shared this on Facebook. I think it would be a good start.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/cities-have-the-power-to-reduce-police-racism-and-violence

 

[redwood66]

I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

JaneSmith said it a little differently, but I have essentially the same view that she does. Only white people ever say, "I guess I have no color" or other seemingly well meaning things that imply that we all alike and that people of color need no special protection, no organizations like "Black Lives matter" (because all lives matter, right?), no special associations within unions.

That is because only white people fail to see the truth that is stuck right into the faces of people of color: they DO have color and it is VISIBLE to everyone they meet!!! And it influences the way they are treated. And the police kill them in greater numbers. And that is a fact.

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

AGBF

My post was not clear and has been taken the wrong way. I meant I do not view color. I view people on their actions only.

ETA - I wish more black fathers had been around and given a talk about not committing crime or having personal responsibility.

 

[redwood66]

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

I have never understood the need for a separate black or hispanic union. My union group had them also. But the overall union covering prison guards in CA was not just for white guards, it was for all guards. The others were not unions but associations. To me we are all on the same team. Why segregate? You could not lawfully have and call it a white correctional officer union. I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

I am glad you feel like everyone is on the same team, really, no sarcasm. That is very important and I wish more people felt this way. But not understanding why there are separate unions shows simple ignorance of your country's history and the reality of present day racism.
They may not call it the White Saint Louis Police Association, but that is what it is, and black officers have to have their own to be fairly represented and have a place to be heard.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/1/1348628/-St-Louis-has-two-police-associations-one-for-white-officers-and-one-for-black-officers

There is deeply rooted systemic racism in the US, and one of the results is black people being targeted for harassment and execution by white cops.

I do not have ignorance of history and am aware of present day racism from all colors especially for the past 25 years. Don't assume you are talking to some dumb hick. The haughty attitude of your posts does nothing to help me see your POV. You are condescending.

ETA - My direct receipt of racism was horrible and the worst came from black men. The absolute worst was from black men who converted to the Muslim religion out of convenience and the perks it gives in prison.

Yet I treated every inmate the same every time because that is what you should do.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am not a basher of the president by any means, because I show respect to whomever is in that office (although I am not sure I can say that after November). I will just say that Obama could have been a MUCH stronger leader in healing racial division. He could have taken the example of Martin Luther King, and he really did not. All we hear when there is a shooting is that we need better gun control. No, we need people to respect and care for one another. Period. We need a Dr. King today.

Anyway, Redwood, I needed to come back and say that you are absolutely right that we need to wait until all the facts come in. While I do not feel someone should be killed at a traffic stop unless they really pull a weapon or are wanted for a violent crime and are threatening or trying to flee, it is important to understand all the information. I have read more today and this guy has been pulled and convicted many, many times. So you can read things into that, too, from multiple views. Lots we do not know and may never know. I do believe blacks have a much tougher time in the judicial system in general, though. I don't think anyone can argue that. (On the other hand, I find it really distasteful that multiple family members of his have set up go-fund-me accounts to take advantage of this situation.)

I just want to say I admire the good law enforcement officers like you. You had the most dangerous and one of the least appreciated jobs. I want you to know that I appreciate the protection that good officers provide daily. I realize there is a small percentage of bad ones just like there is a percentage of bad teachers, which was my field. Getting a bad doctor can be life threatening, too. I had a friend who at age 40 died of cancer because her doctor kept giving her meds for pain and never bothered to do an MRI to see what was going on.

And yes, racism is a two way street.

 

[redwood66]

Thank you DS. I appreciate it.

President Obama could help the view of him by many if he would just condemn the destructive acts of some of these protesters. He should be firm in saying it is not ok to destroy your community to make your point.

I just heard him say from Warsaw that there is "ALMOST uniformly peaceful protests happening." That was the opportunity to condemn the destructive behavior and he did not take it. This does nothing to help me think he will do anything that might lose votes for the Dems.

Sorry but that is the view of many in the US of his ability to help everyone and bring people together.

 

[Matata]

ETA - I wish more black fathers had been around and given a talk about not committing crime or having personal responsibility.

This is prejudice which you claim does not afflict you. Maybe we should send in some white privileged men to be role model baby daddies. Oh I dunno, like Dylan Klebold's or Ted Bundy's or Adam Lanza's or McVeigh's and Nichols's or that lovely example of fatherhood Dan Turner who thought it was terribly unfair for his precious boy to be punished for raping an unconscious woman.

 

[JaneSmith]

I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

JaneSmith said it a little differently, but I have essentially the same view that she does. Only white people ever say, "I guess I have no color" or other seemingly well meaning things that imply that we all alike and that people of color need no special protection, no organizations like "Black Lives matter" (because all lives matter, right?), no special associations within unions.

That is because only white people fail to see the truth that is stuck right into the faces of people of color: they DO have color and it is VISIBLE to everyone they meet!!! And it influences the way they are treated. And the police kill them in greater numbers. And that is a fact.

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

AGBF

My post was not clear and has been taken the wrong way. I meant I do not view color. I view people on their actions only.

ETA - I wish more black fathers had been around and given a talk about not committing crime or having personal responsibility.

1. Your post was clear, and we took you the right way. You are attempting to be colourblind as a solution to institutionalisaed racism. Like I said, it is a truly good thing to judge someone on their individual actions, but you can't separate a person from their colour and the implications that has for them in this society; and by being colourblind, you are erasing part of their identity. Colourblind white people may mean well, but it assumes a level playing field, and there certainly is not one.

2. Mothers, black or otherwise, are just as capable as giving that talk as fathers.

 

[redwood66]

And of course you twist what I say to fit your narrative that I am a racist.

My comment about "black fathers" was in direct response to JaneSmith's

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

 

[JaneSmith]

Interesting further reading on the large amount of racism within PD's and just how many race segregated police unions there are in the US: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-black-union-st-louis-slams-department-article-1.2702852

I have never understood the need for a separate black or hispanic union. My union group had them also. But the overall union covering prison guards in CA was not just for white guards, it was for all guards. The others were not unions but associations. To me we are all on the same team. Why segregate? You could not lawfully have and call it a white correctional officer union. I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

I am glad you feel like everyone is on the same team, really, no sarcasm. That is very important and I wish more people felt this way. But not understanding why there are separate unions shows simple ignorance of your country's history and the reality of present day racism.
They may not call it the White Saint Louis Police Association, but that is what it is, and black officers have to have their own to be fairly represented and have a place to be heard.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/1/1348628/-St-Louis-has-two-police-associations-one-for-white-officers-and-one-for-black-officers

There is deeply rooted systemic racism in the US, and one of the results is black people being targeted for harassment and execution by white cops.

I do not have ignorance of history and am aware of present day racism from all colors especially for the past 25 years. Don't assume you are talking to some dumb hick. The haughty attitude of your posts does nothing to help me see your POV. You are condescending.

ETA - My direct receipt of racism was horrible and the worst came from black men. The absolute worst was from black men who converted to the Muslim religion out of convenience and the perks it gives in prison.

Yet I treated every inmate the same every time because that is what you should do.

You say, right there in the above quote, that you have never understood the need for separate unions. If you are aware of US racism past and present, then you must have some cognitive dissonance going on.
As for tone, it can be difficult to infer through short posts. I prefer to pay attention to facts and arguments than getting all flustered at what someone may or may not be conveying with a tone that may or may not be there. I'm not trying to be condescending, nor do I assume anything about you.
I'm sure you've put up with monumental amounts of crap over the years in the job you did. None of it was systemic institutionalized racism that stacked every system in society against you because of your colour. I'm not dismissing your experiences, I'm pointing out that racial prejudice and institutionalized racism are two different things.

 

[JaneSmith]

I am not a basher of the president by any means, because I show respect to whomever is in that office (although I am not sure I can say that after November). I will just say that Obama could have been a MUCH stronger leader in healing racial division. He could have taken the example of Martin Luther King, and he really did not. All we hear when there is a shooting is that we need better gun control. No, we need people to respect and care for one another. Period. We need a Dr. King today.

Anyway, Redwood, I needed to come back and say that you are absolutely right that we need to wait until all the facts come in. While I do not feel someone should be killed at a traffic stop unless they really pull a weapon or are wanted for a violent crime and are threatening or trying to flee, it is important to understand all the information. I have read more today and this guy has been pulled and convicted many, many times. So you can read things into that, too, from multiple views. Lots we do not know and may never know. I do believe blacks have a much tougher time in the judicial system in general, though. I don't think anyone can argue that. (On the other hand, I find it really distasteful that multiple family members of his have set up go-fund-me accounts to take advantage of this situation.)

I just want to say I admire the good law enforcement officers like you. You had the most dangerous and one of the least appreciated jobs. I want you to know that I appreciate the protection that good officers provide daily. I realize there is a small percentage of bad ones just like there is a percentage of bad teachers, which was my field. Getting a bad doctor can be life threatening, too. I had a friend who at age 40 died of cancer because her doctor kept giving her meds for pain and never bothered to do an MRI to see what was going on.

And yes, racism is a two way street.

I think that Obama has had to walk a fine line between standing up for black people and not appearing to heavily invested in a 'special interest group'. He's in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position.

I don't think your bad doctor example flies here. That doctor was either lazy or incompetent or both, but didn't deliberately keep giving pain meds and withholding an MRI req because of the colour of her skin.

I'm terribly sorry that happened to your friend.

 

[redwood66]

JaneSmith you are dismissing my experiences with your "teaching moment" when there is a - but......

 

[Matata]

And of course you twist what I say to fit your narrative that I am a racist.

My comment about "black fathers" was in direct response to JaneSmith's

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

My bad, sorry.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I am not a basher of the president by any means, because I show respect to whomever is in that office (although I am not sure I can say that after November). I will just say that Obama could have been a MUCH stronger leader in healing racial division. He could have taken the example of Martin Luther King, and he really did not. All we hear when there is a shooting is that we need better gun control. No, we need people to respect and care for one another. Period. We need a Dr. King today.

Yup, Exactly!..

 

[JaneSmith]

And of course you twist what I say to fit your narrative that I am a racist.

My comment about "black fathers" was in direct response to JaneSmith's

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

My bad, sorry.

Those are not my words.

 

[JaneSmith]

JaneSmith you are dismissing my experiences with your "teaching moment" when there is a - but......

I specifically acknowledged your experiences and did not say 'but'.

 

[redwood66]

Too many quotes and I cannot keep all of them straight. No offense intended JaneSmith but my quote is still the same no matter who said it.

 

[redwood66]

I am done with the discussion on this thread. Damned if I do damned if I don't see it your way.

 

[JaneSmith]

I guess I have a no color just do your damn job view.

JaneSmith said it a little differently, but I have essentially the same view that she does. Only white people ever say, "I guess I have no color" or other seemingly well meaning things that imply that we all alike and that people of color need no special protection, no organizations like "Black Lives matter" (because all lives matter, right?), no special associations within unions.

That is because only white people fail to see the truth that is stuck right into the faces of people of color: they DO have color and it is VISIBLE to everyone they meet!!! And it influences the way they are treated. And the police kill them in greater numbers. And that is a fact.

And black fathers have to have "the talk" with their sons about learning to comply with police instantly and immediately, no matter what, as their sons grow up and start to look less like babies and more like black men, because they know how many black men are killed by the police.

AGBF

My post was not clear and has been taken the wrong way. I meant I do not view color. I view people on their actions only.

ETA - I wish more black fathers had been around and given a talk about not committing crime or having personal responsibility.

You did not offend me by misattributing this quote.

AGBF was pointing out that black fathers have to tell their sons a lifesaving behavior specific to their race and you replied with a remark about absent black fathers. A remark that dismisses black (or any colour) mothers. A remark that contains a lot of racist stereotypes. A remark that actually illustrates AGBF's point, that people are tasking the black victims with solving the problem of white cops profiling and targeting black people.

 

[Dancing Fire]

ETA - I wish more black fathers had been around and given a talk about not committing crime or having personal responsibility.

This is prejudice which you claim does not afflict you. Maybe we should send in some white privileged men to be role model baby daddies. Oh I dunno, like Dylan Klebold's or Ted Bundy's or Adam Lanza's or McVeigh's and Nichols's or that lovely example of fatherhood Dan Turner who thought it was terribly unfair for his precious boy to be punished for raping an unconscious woman.

I'd agree with you and Redwood's post.

 

[AnnaH]

Red, for the record, you have given me no reason to think that you are racist or uninformed. That's a convenient charge that some use in an effort to silence differing views. That's no news to you, of course.

 

[redwood66]

AGBF was pointing out that black fathers have to tell their sons a lifesaving behavior specific to their race and you replied with a remark about absent black fathers. A remark that dismisses black (or any colour) mothers. A remark that contains a lot of racist stereotypes. A remark that actually illustrates AGBF's point, that people are tasking the black victims with solving the problem of white cops profiling and targeting black people.

I can't help myself I have to post.

My point I made is a true statement to the lack of black fathers in the homes. Stereotypes go both ways as we have seen regarding cops in these two threads. While you may not have made them, they have been on full display.

If what you are trying to do is to get me to admit that racism exists then you have not been listening to me. I have never said that racism does not exist nor have I downplayed any view of persons here. I am making the point that other opinions and views are here on PS and giving my POV to the discussion.

 

[redwood66]

Thanks AnnaH. It is nice to hear from at least a couple people here.

 

[JaneSmith]

AGBF was pointing out that black fathers have to tell their sons a lifesaving behavior specific to their race and you replied with a remark about absent black fathers. A remark that dismisses black (or any colour) mothers. A remark that contains a lot of racist stereotypes. A remark that actually illustrates AGBF's point, that people are tasking the black victims with solving the problem of white cops profiling and targeting black people.

I can't help myself I have to post.

My point I made is a true statement to the lack of black fathers in the homes. Stereotypes go both ways as we have seen regarding cops in these two threads. While you may not have made them, they have been on full display.

I'm glad you have been posting. I enjoy PS specifically for differing points of view.


I've called no one racist or tried to silence anyone.

ETA: In response to your edit, redwood66, I have not been trying to get you to admit that, it is clear you know that racism exists.

 

[Dancing Fire]

2. Mothers, black or otherwise, are just as capable as giving that talk as fathers.

We need more black moms like her...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5aNhO7c4qw

My mom would have done the same to me if I rioted on the street, and then more spanking when we get home...OUCH

 

[redwood66]

AGBF was pointing out that black fathers have to tell their sons a lifesaving behavior specific to their race and you replied with a remark about absent black fathers. A remark that dismisses black (or any colour) mothers. A remark that contains a lot of racist stereotypes. A remark that actually illustrates AGBF's point, that people are tasking the black victims with solving the problem of white cops profiling and targeting black people.

I can't help myself I have to post.

My point I made is a true statement to the lack of black fathers in the homes. Stereotypes go both ways as we have seen regarding cops in these two threads. While you may not have made them, they have been on full display.

I'm glad you have been posting. I enjoy PS specifically for differing points of view.


I've called no one racist or tried to silence anyone.

ETA: In response to your edit, redwood66, I have not been trying to get you to admit that, it is clear you know that racism exists.

I thank you for your acknowledgment, and no sarcasm meant. Your posts do come across as condescending to me like a parent using it as a "teaching moment" which I do not need. If that is not your intent and I hope it is not, then I apologize for my rancorous response. I take any sweeping stereotypical negative comments toward law enforcement VERY personally and that has been on display by me in these threads. And I recognize they have not been from you but from others. If my posts are helpful to even a few to see these things from a law enforcement POV then I have done my job.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I am done with the discussion on this thread. Damned if I do damned if I don't see it your way.

You will not win against the liberals here, but don't give up so easily...

 

[redwood66]

I am done with the discussion on this thread. Damned if I do damned if I don't see it your way.

You will not win against the liberals here, but don't give up so easily...

As you can see I didn't.

 

[AGBF]

I take any sweeping stereotypical negative comments toward law enforcement VERY personally and that has been on display by me in these threads. And I recognize they have not been from you but from others. If my posts are helpful to even a few to see these things from a law enforcement POV then I have done my job.

Just as you do not like to be condescended to, neither do I.

This is the second time you have said that you "take negative comments about law enforcement personnel very personally"; once you said it directly to me. I, also, do not need a lecture or an education. If I make a comment about law enforcement which you construe as "negative", then you can refute it logically here on the forum. What rankles with me is the notion that if you, "take something personally" I am supposed to quake in my boots. You may have been in law enforcement, but your opinion carries no more weight here than that of anyone else. No one has to fear your wrath. If you "take something personally", we do not have to run and hide. Just come talk it out.

AGBF

 

[redwood66]

I take any sweeping stereotypical negative comments toward law enforcement VERY personally and that has been on display by me in these threads. And I recognize they have not been from you but from others. If my posts are helpful to even a few to see these things from a law enforcement POV then I have done my job.

Just as you do not like to be condescended to, neither do I.

This is the second time you have said that you "take negative comments about law enforcement personnel very personally"; once you said it directly to me. I, also, do not need a lecture or an education. If I make a comment about law enforcement which you construe as "negative", then you can refute it logically here on the forum. What rankles with me is the notion that if you, "take something personally" I am supposed to quake in my boots. You may have been in law enforcement, but your opinion carries no more weight here than that of anyone else. No one has to fear your wrath. If you "take something personally", we do not have to run and hide. Just come talk it out.

AGBF

This confuses me and we have had good interactions before. I am not sure how you have come to this conclusion? I am not trying to make anyone quake in their boots or make people run and hide. Is it a tone you are hearing because none of what you say was my intent. Nor does my opinion carry any more weight but it is different than most here.