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Converting ASET Scope to IdealScope and Testing Symmetry

Skhii

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
344
Hello PS Trade Members and Prosumers! I would be very grateful if you could answer the questions I have below regarding the versatility of an ASET scope. I am wondering if it can an all-in-one device if used properly.

1. If the interior cone of an ASET scope is covered with pink/red paper, will it show the same results as an IdealScope, except that light obstruction will be shown as blue instead of black?

2. Please correct me if I am wrong: An ASET shows strong light return as red (equivalent to brighter/darker red in IS image) and weak light return as green (equivalent to less intense red/pink in IS image). Head obstruction will be blue for ASET and black for IS. Leakage is white in both ASET and IS images. If this is the case, why is an IdealScope always recommended in addition to an ASET? Wouldn't an ASET suffice to test a stone's light performance because it shows the same thing, but using more colors?

3. Can an ASET and IS show a stone's symmetry if the gemstone is centered within the cone? If not, what makes a H&A viewer so different?

4. An ASET should be used on all shapes/cuts, but are IdealScopes and H&A scopes to be used only for modern round brilliant diamonds (e.g., there are H&A squares like Brellia)? Why?

5. Is it impossible to have an intense/vivid colored diamond that also has excellent light performance? I never see light performance tools used for colored diamonds and other gemstones.

Thanks so, so much to all who reply!
 

Skhii

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
344
Skhii|1458891420|4010787 said:
Hello PS Trade Members and Prosumers! I would be very grateful if you could answer the questions I have below regarding the versatility of an ASET scope. I am wondering if it can an all-in-one device if used properly.

1. If the interior cone of an ASET scope is covered with pink/red paper, will it show the same results as an IdealScope, except that light obstruction will be shown as blue instead of black?

2. Please correct me if I am wrong: An ASET shows strong light return as red (equivalent to brighter/darker red in IS image) and weak light return as green (equivalent to less intense red/pink in IS image). Head obstruction will be blue for ASET and black for IS. Leakage is white in both ASET and IS images. If this is the case, why is an IdealScope always recommended in addition to an ASET? Wouldn't an ASET suffice to test a stone's light performance because it shows the same thing, but using more colors?

3. Can an ASET and IS show a stone's symmetry if the gemstone is centered within the cone? If not, what makes a H&A viewer so different?

4. An ASET should be used on all shapes/cuts, but are IdealScopes and H&A scopes to be used only for modern round brilliant diamonds (e.g., there are H&A squares like Brellia)? Why?

5. Is it impossible to have an intense/vivid colored diamond that also has excellent light performance? I never see light performance tools used for colored diamonds and other gemstones.

Thanks so, so much to all who reply!

Another question!

6. I've seen ASET images that feature reds, greens, and blues of different intensities- Why does this happen, and what does it mean? For example: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3634196.htm
The center has much intenser colors.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
9,466
no you cant convert them easily the area of the blue is different than the area of the black in IS.

You see different shades because of color mixing in the same image.
Blue, red and white/black mix because an area of the diamond does draw light from different areas of the scope at the same time.
You see different shades in different images because of differences in the light used, which scope is used and the camera settings and what post processing is done.

Here is an image I created for another thread at one time.

red-nored-comp.jpg
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
2. Yes.

An ASET scope image is sufficient and IS is not required when ASET is available.

Also converting and ASET to an IS is useless. Converting IS to ASET would be helpful. But AGS has already done it!

A good light performance will hide body colour - and we don't want that with fancy colours. And with fancy colours we aren't looking for performance to begin with.

I remember Garry Holloway mentioned once on this forum that a lower coloured diamond with hypothetical equal performance of another higher coloured diamond will have a marginally less light performance. Please correct if I'm wrong and please forgive if I've quoted wrong. So for a diamond with a lots of body colour and a hypothetical same optics of a super ideal - it will not be as bright as an F colour diamond.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,191
Skhii|1458891420|4010787 said:
Hello PS Trade Members and Prosumers! I would be very grateful if you could answer the questions I have below regarding the versatility of an ASET scope. I am wondering if it can an all-in-one device if used properly.

1. If the interior cone of an ASET scope is covered with pink/red paper, will it show the same results as an IdealScope, except that light obstruction will be shown as blue instead of black?
In theory it would. But the cone of obstruction in the Ideal Scope is not specifically defined in terms of angular range, as the ASET cone is at standard 30 degrees.

2. Please correct me if I am wrong: An ASET shows strong light return as red (equivalent to brighter/darker red in IS image) and weak light return as green (equivalent to less intense red/pink in IS image). Head obstruction will be blue for ASET and black for IS. Leakage is white in both ASET and IS images. If this is the case, why is an IdealScope always recommended in addition to an ASET? Wouldn't an ASET suffice to test a stone's light performance because it shows the same thing, but using more colors?
Yes it does. The additional colors show not only light return, but where on the horizon light is coming from. That extra information is valuable in assessing light performance and even precision.

3. Can an ASET and IS show a stone's symmetry if the gemstone is centered within the cone? If not, what makes a H&A viewer so different?
They both show indications of 3D symmetry. ASET is capable of finer distinctions. Many hearts and arrows diamonds on AGSL platinum certs show both table and pavilion views which illustrate the overall optical precision of the diamond.

4. An ASET should be used on all shapes/cuts, but are IdealScopes and H&A scopes to be used only for modern round brilliant diamonds (e.g., there are H&A squares like Brellia)? Why?
ASET and Ideal Scope can be used on any shape, but the 'signatures" vary greatly from shape to shape and even within shapes due to different facet arrangements. Interpreting light maps of fancy shapes is more of a practiced art. Rounds are much more straight forward. H&A scopes are really not used on other shapes other than for curiosity.

5. Is it impossible to have an intense/vivid colored diamond that also has excellent light performance? I never see light performance tools used for colored diamonds and other gemstones.
In fancy color diamonds, the value is largely in the hue and strength of color. Cut quality is important but is judged in a different way. That is, how well the cutter was able to maximize the overall beauty of the stone. Cutting for maximum brightness is actually counter to the goal of maintaining a very even saturated color.

Thanks so, so much to all who reply!
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
9,466
Texas Leaguer|1459168827|4011984 said:
In theory it would. But the cone of obstruction in the Ideal Scope is not specifically defined in terms of angular range, as the ASET cone is at standard 30 degrees.
IS is 24 degrees.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,191
Karl_K|1459187468|4012071 said:
Texas Leaguer|1459168827|4011984 said:
In theory it would. But the cone of obstruction in the Ideal Scope is not specifically defined in terms of angular range, as the ASET cone is at standard 30 degrees.
IS is 24 degrees.
Thanks Karl. I never knew that! Is is published somewhere and has that stayed constant through the various iterations of the device itself? It makes sense that it is specifically defined otherwise computer simulations such as DiamCalc would not be possible.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
9,466
Texas Leaguer|1459188037|4012078 said:
Karl_K|1459187468|4012071 said:
Texas Leaguer|1459168827|4011984 said:
In theory it would. But the cone of obstruction in the Ideal Scope is not specifically defined in terms of angular range, as the ASET cone is at standard 30 degrees.
IS is 24 degrees.
Thanks Karl. I never knew that! Is is published somewhere and has that stayed constant through the various iterations of the device itself? It makes sense that it is specifically defined otherwise computer simulations such as DiamCalc would not be possible.
Garry has said so many times over the years on here.
As far as I know it has not changed.
I pinged Garry to verify.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,177
gr8leo87|1458948564|4011112 said:
2. Yes.

An ASET scope image is sufficient and IS is not required when ASET is available.

Also converting and ASET to an IS is useless. Converting IS to ASET would be helpful. But AGS has already done it! I did too in education classes in the late 1980's.

A good light performance will hide body colour - and we don't want that with fancy colours. And with fancy colours we aren't looking for performance to begin with.

I remember Garry Holloway mentioned once on this forum that a lower coloured diamond with hypothetical equal performance of another higher coloured diamond will have a marginally less light performance. Please correct if I'm wrong and please forgive if I've quoted wrong. So for a diamond with a lots of body colour and a hypothetical same optics of a super ideal - it will not be as bright as an F colour diamond.
The absorption of a colour would dim the ASET or IS but only slightly for a fancy yellow, but by 83% for a black diamond because only the reflection would appear(
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
Texas Leaguer|1459168827|4011984 said:
Skhii|1458891420|4010787 said:
Hello PS Trade Members and Prosumers! I would be very grateful if you could answer the questions I have below regarding the versatility of an ASET scope. I am wondering if it can an all-in-one device if used properly.

1. If the interior cone of an ASET scope is covered with pink/red paper, will it show the same results as an IdealScope, except that light obstruction will be shown as blue instead of black?
In theory it would. But the cone of obstruction in the Ideal Scope is not specifically defined in terms of angular range, as the ASET cone is at standard 30 degrees.

2. Please correct me if I am wrong: An ASET shows strong light return as red (equivalent to brighter/darker red in IS image) and weak light return as green (equivalent to less intense red/pink in IS image). Head obstruction will be blue for ASET and black for IS. Leakage is white in both ASET and IS images. If this is the case, why is an IdealScope always recommended in addition to an ASET? Wouldn't an ASET suffice to test a stone's light performance because it shows the same thing, but using more colors?
Yes it does. The additional colors show not only light return, but where on the horizon light is coming from. That extra information is valuable in assessing light performance and even precision.

3. Can an ASET and IS show a stone's symmetry if the gemstone is centered within the cone? If not, what makes a H&A viewer so different?
They both show indications of 3D symmetry. ASET is capable of finer distinctions. Many hearts and arrows diamonds on AGSL platinum certs show both table and pavilion views which illustrate the overall optical precision of the diamond.

4. An ASET should be used on all shapes/cuts, but are IdealScopes and H&A scopes to be used only for modern round brilliant diamonds (e.g., there are H&A squares like Brellia)? Why?
ASET and Ideal Scope can be used on any shape, but the 'signatures" vary greatly from shape to shape and even within shapes due to different facet arrangements. Interpreting light maps of fancy shapes is more of a practiced art. Rounds are much more straight forward. H&A scopes are really not used on other shapes other than for curiosity.

5. Is it impossible to have an intense/vivid colored diamond that also has excellent light performance? I never see light performance tools used for colored diamonds and other gemstones.
In fancy color diamonds, the value is largely in the hue and strength of color. Cut quality is important but is judged in a different way. That is, how well the cutter was able to maximize the overall beauty of the stone. Cutting for maximum brightness is actually counter to the goal of maintaining a very even saturated color.

Thanks so, so much to all who reply!
The statement in red above is not technically correct. (An ASET shows strong light return as red (equivalent to brighter/darker red in IS image) and weak light return as green An ASET shows light from 45 degrees above the horizon to 75 degrees above the horizon, relative to the girdle of the diamond, as red. It shows light from the horizon to 45 degrees above the horizon as green. It says nothing about the intensity of the lighting, only where it comes from. Indoor lighting in today's world tends to be stronger coming from overhead, and lighting entering the diamond from the side is often weaker reflected light when the diamond is held with the girdle parallel to the ceiling, but the diamond is often held in positions where the strong light is entering from the side so it is am important distinction of the red and green colors not corresponding to the strength of the lighting, only the location of where the light is being gathered from.

RE: In fancy color diamonds, the value is largely in the hue and strength of color. Cut quality is important but is judged in a different way. That is, how well the cutter was able to maximize the overall beauty of the stone. Cutting for maximum brightness is actually counter to the goal of maintaining a very even saturated color.
While I agree with Texas Leaguer that the value is largely in the hue and strength of the color, I had the pleasure of seeing many Fancy Vivid and Fancy Intense colored diamonds that were cut by EightStar for a private collection. They were recuts from larger diamonds that maintained the same color grade by GIA after they were cut by EightStar that they had prior to being cut by EightStar. I have seen diamonds that I thought relatively weak colored that came out incredibly colored after being cut into cushions and radiants, so I know that this can definitely improve the color in many diamonds. Garry Holloway once shared with me many before and after pictures that were extraordinary examples of the cutter improving the color of the diamond with cutting. Still, I remember those incredible EightStar diamonds, so I know that great cutting can also result in superlative beauty in a colored diamond round.

Wink
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
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Messages
15,177
Karl_K|1459189835|4012101 said:
Texas Leaguer|1459188037|4012078 said:
Karl_K|1459187468|4012071 said:
Texas Leaguer|1459168827|4011984 said:
In theory it would. But the cone of obstruction in the Ideal Scope is not specifically defined in terms of angular range, as the ASET cone is at standard 30 degrees.
IS is 24 degrees.
Thanks Karl. I never knew that! Is is published somewhere and has that stayed constant through the various iterations of the device itself? It makes sense that it is specifically defined otherwise computer simulations such as DiamCalc would not be possible.
Garry has said so many times over the years on here.
As far as I know it has not changed.
I pinged Garry to verify.
There are some small variations in various models we produced over the years, but as a rule the black in Ideal-scopes acts to obscure about 5 degrees less than the blue in an ASET scope. AGS have infact increased their online report modeling to 32.5 degrees to show the hearts effect on the pavilion.
 

Skhii

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
344
Thanks for all the replies! The remaining question is, are the color intensities of ASET and IS images in some way correlated, and do they translate to the brightness of the actual diamond reflection? Personally, I think (similar to 3D symmetry) multiple images taken from slightly different angles are needed to assert the overall brightness of a diamond (even just for the top view).


Below is a summary of the answers to my questions. If my understanding is not correct, please let me know. Thank you.

ASET and IdealScope (IS) are tools that indicate the angular direction of incident lights which result in diamond reflection patterns. Since both tools work based on the same principles, one can convert an ASET tool to an IS tool, provided that the color regions match the correct angular ranges (the standard: 24 degrees (78-90) for IS and 30 degrees (45-75-90) for ASET- all angles are measured relative to the diamond girdle horizon).

Both tools can be used on all diamond shapes and cuts. However, the interpretation of the results is more or less a practiced art, which is only well established and documented for round brilliant cuts. Furthermore, the strength of fancy color diamonds is in their hue and saturation of color, so their ASET or IS images would not be valuable because cutting diamonds for color diminishes brilliance and fire.

ASET and IS images are roughly interconvertible, but light mixings within the tools lead to superposition of primary and secondary light sources, which makes a perfect direct conversion between these images infeasible. Furthermore, there are no advantages to convert ASET images to IS images since ASET images provide a more comprehensive view. For the same reason, ASET images show finer distinctions of diamond reflection patterns and provides a better indication of 3D symmetry, but IS images also show symmetry to a lower extent. A complete assertion of a diamond symmetry would require images taken from multiple angles (top, bottom, and multiple side views).
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,191
Skhii|1459327769|4013018 said:
Thanks for all the replies! The remaining question is, are the color intensities of ASET and IS images in some way correlated, and do they translate to the brightness of the actual diamond reflectionRegarding the bo? Personally, I think (similar to 3D symmetry) multiple images taken from slightly different angles are needed to assert the overall brightness of a diamond (even just for the top view).


Below is a summary of the answers to my questions. If my understanding is not correct, please let me know. Thank you.

ASET and IdealScope (IS) are tools that indicate the angular direction of incident lights which result in diamond reflection patterns. Since both tools work based on the same principles, one can convert an ASET tool to an IS tool, provided that the color regions match the correct angular ranges (the standard: 24 degrees (78-90) for IS and 30 degrees (45-75-90) for ASET- all angles are measured relative to the diamond girdle horizon).

Both tools can be used on all diamond shapes and cuts. However, the interpretation of the results is more or less a practiced art, which is only well established and documented for round brilliant cuts. Furthermore, the strength of fancy color diamonds is in their hue and saturation of color, so their ASET or IS images would not be valuable because cutting diamonds for color diminishes brilliance and fire.

ASET and IS images are roughly interconvertible, but light mixings within the tools lead to superposition of primary and secondary light sources, which makes a perfect direct conversion between these images infeasible. Furthermore, there are no advantages to convert ASET images to IS images since ASET images provide a more comprehensive view. For the same reason, ASET images show finer distinctions of diamond reflection patterns and provides a better indication of 3D symmetry, but IS images also show symmetry to a lower extent. A complete assertion of a diamond symmetry would require images taken from multiple angles (top, bottom, and multiple side views).
Regarding the part I bolded above, I think a common mistake is to directly equate overall light performance to nuances of reflector images. It is best to think of them more as cut quality tools rather than actual light performance tools. Clarity factors can impact light performance significantly, even in diamonds that have outstanding reflector images. (computer generated images are of course purely mathematical)

Furthermore, one should not rely too much on any one diagnostic. To gain a comprehensive understanding of the diamond you need to look at multiple diagnostics including details of the lab report, reflector images that reveal optical precision and light return aspects, as well as magnified photos and videos.

Evaluating the diamond in person in a variety of lighting environments is clearly the bottom line. But if you are able to access the diagnostics mentioned above and do the homework, there will be few surprises.
 
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