CONSUMERS BEWARE... BIG TIME

[Rhino]

Recently a PS consumer came onto the forum soliciting opinions on H&A images they were forwarded by another company. The images looked IDENTICAL to the shots we take (orientation, . In any case, the consumer also inquired for an IS image and Sarin results on the same stone. The results proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that this company is not only ripping off my images but are also ripping off the public in the process by misrepresenting the product.

The website are drop-shippers so they are relying on images and analysis provided by the wholesaler (which if I were to name in public my fellow tradesmen would know immediately, consumers wouldn''t). If you''re in the trade PM me and I''ll tell you who this skank is.

In any case, here was the IS shot they sent the person. It''s one of our images except they compressed it so it looks a little pixelated.

 

[Rhino]

How do I know this for sure? Here are the Sarin results that were forwarded to the client. Any experienced gemologist who uses this equipment will be familiar with what FS/IS/LS image these proportions produce *if* the stone is symetrical.

 

[Rhino]

When we take these OGI measurements and input them into DiamCalc here is the resulting image. In the image the consumer was sent it''s showing an excellent saturation of dark reds and blacks. 35 degree crown angles coupled with 41.1 pavilion angles produce a notable amount of leakage under the table (we do not purchase stones like this) which you can plainly see in the simulated LS image.

 

[Hest88]

Ugh, that''s awful, Jonathan. I''m glad you found out!

 

[strmrdr]

sheesh that stinks thanks for the heads up.

 

[Rhino]

Lesson to be learned ...

to me: I need to start watermarking my images which will go into effect immediately (big job unfortunately).
to ya''ll: This stresses the importance of doing business *with a known trusted source* who does not drop ship their stones. What is sad here is the dishonesty is happening on the wholesale level, possibly on the retail level as well.

PHYSICAL INSPECTION AND ANALYSIS BY A KNOWN TRUSTED SOURCE is to be emphasized.

Some may ask ... what if I have it appraised? Well ... if you can *before* paying for it and as long as the appraiser has the appropriate optical equipment to confirm or deny what was presented. Sadly this is not the case in most situations. 99% of people *pay first* then have it appraised and no matter what the policies of Internet company you''re doing biz with ... once they have your funds they can dissappear in a wink.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Wow Jonathan. Thanks for the detailed explanation and graphics.

We've had our ACA imagery lifted used by other companies many times. Once challenged they typically remove it. Graphics, descriptions and policies on our site have also been copied (sometimes word for word)... But this situation is different: You're saying they privately sent images from your site to falsely represent a diamond they are selling? Are you - or the customer - pursuing this?

Well stated points about going with someone with an established history of reputability.

The existence of this forum is to be acknowledged too. Without this open communication, Jonathan, you may never have discovered this! How long do you think these people have been doing this with your images? What about other vendor images and info?

Another chalk-one-up-for-Pricescope moment - along with a warning for consumers and vendors alike.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Cheers Jonathon.

*silver cloud... you've earned a good enough rep to be plaugarised

 

[Kaleigh]

Oh Jonathon,
That's awful!! Thanks for pointing it out to us and explaining the whole process. It's a shame you have to water mark your images, but I guess in the long run will prevent this kind of thing happening again? What will happen to the skanks that did this??

 

[fire&ice]

I''m a little confused. The wholesaler forwarded the image to the retailer who innocently just forwarded them to the consumer thinking the images were correct?

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/11/2005 4

1:54 PM
Author: fire&ice
I''m a little confused. The wholesaler forwarded the image to the retailer who innocently just forwarded them to the consumer thinking the images were correct?

As far as I know the procedure went like this ...

1. Consumer contacts website listing the diamond.
2. The people running the site don''t have a clue ... they just sell diamonds.
3. The educated consumer *asks* for images.
4. They are put in touch with the *manufacturer* for more information.
5. Manufacturer also doesn''t have a clue so he rips off our images and forwards them to the client via email representing them as his own.
6. Consumer posts images here on the forum for input.
7. I see them (along with other posters who recognize the images as mine) and this dude is busted.

I''m going to send this manufacturer a warning from us that he''s been had. If he keeps it up the next letter will be from our lawyer. I will also contact the retail website and let them know as well however I want to do a little investigating before I take any further steps.

 

[fire&ice]

The wholesaler should know better. Geez. Doesn''t bode well for them.

 

[Maxine]

Wow...to your knowledge, it this a rather recent event.....? Or has it been going on......?

 

[mdx]

Hi Jonathon

I reckon a visit to your lawyer is the appropriate thing here. This is blatant fraud.

I say this because your image in this case is a technical document relating to a specific diamond.

Your image was stolen and supplied to a consumer to falsely represent another diamond.

The fact that the vendors diamond was inferior is not even that relevant, the client was given false stolen information.

Its like sending a copy of a cert than supplying a diamond that does not relate to that cert.

We had a case like that in Australia and the culprits are now in jail.
Johan

 

[WinkHPD]

Jeez Jon, that sucks!

I wish I could say it was rare. I recently received a request from a lady wanting to know if I could make a ring like she found on another website. It had a picture of a Stuller ring that I posted on my store section of my site, complete with my name on the picture. She was real pleased that I could make that exact same ring, but would not tell me where she got my picture.

Wink

P.S. For those wondering, Stuller is a major supplier of findings to the trade. It is perfectly permissible for me to take a picture of a finished piece to post in my store.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/11/2005 3:6:42 PM
Author: Rhino

to me: I need to start watermarking my images which will go into effect immediately (big job unfortunately).

I am sorry to hear about this mess... Is this why the collection of sold diamonds vanished from goodoldgold.com ?

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/12/2005 12:49:52 AM
Author: valeria101

Date: 3/11/2005 3:6:42 PM
Author: Rhino

to me: I need to start watermarking my images which will go into effect immediately (big job unfortunately).

I am sorry to hear about this mess... Is this why the collection of sold diamonds vanished from goodoldgold.com ?

Na... that''s not why. Our navigation structure was becoming way too overwhelming on the design side. Admittedly that is one of my favorite areas too (perhaps we''ll reinstitute it in some way via a search or suttin) cause there were a lot of good stones to learn from there. I know you know about our "learning stones" link where I keep diamonds that I have learned from or were intriguing in one way or another. I''ll probably group the rest I have like that into one neat place where consumers can learn about different nuances and oddities in diamonds and how they affect optical performance.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/12/2005 1:2:7 PM
Author: Rhino

I'll probably group the rest I have like that into one neat place where consumers can learn about different nuances and oddities in diamonds and how they affect optical performance.

That would be one unique resource ! If you ever find time...

There's practically no other way to look at how the various branding tools (Bscope, Iscope, Isee2...) work side by side. Without the kind of data on your (old) site, there's really no reality check left for them

If setting up the bulky database is too much trouble, perhaps this kind of info could be summarized somehow (say... statistics backed up by CD archive). IMO, it is definitely worth it

 

[Mara]

Rhino...how horrible...and more work for you now to watermark the images!!

One Q..I was on your site this AM and noticed alot of H&A stones didn''t have prices any longer, is this all along the entire site, and if so why? From a consumer helping other consumers perspective, it will be very hard to recommend stones to people if I have no idea what the pricing is. Esp since many times we know people''s budgets and that is how I search for stones, aka what fits in their price range with their specs, I prefer not listing stones that require a call for price.

I know alot of the branded stones aka Regent and Jubilee you cannot post prices, but what about your H&A''s?

 

[Petunia]

Yes, I noticed the pricing on GOG''s website was gone yesterday, which only made it difficult for me to ponder the possibilities of upgrading. Mara has unleashed the desire in me to upgrade

Oh, my poor husband!

Helen

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks for the DM Jon, I now have another guy on my list of "Do not USE" suppliers. It used to be a VERY short list, but these past couple of years it is becoming longer and longer, I think there is a LOT of fear and desparation out there when this type of thing starts to happen. These guys are supposed to be bigger than that and should be able to afford to take their own photos.

Thanks for sharing their actions with us and their names with those of us in the trade!

Wink

 

[noobie]

Date: 3/12/2005 3:28:58 PM
Author: Mara


One Q..I was on your site this AM and noticed alot of H&A stones didn''t have prices any longer, is this all along the entire site, and if so why? From a consumer helping other consumers perspective, it will be very hard to recommend stones to people if I have no idea what the pricing is. Esp since many times we know people''s budgets and that is how I search for stones, aka what fits in their price range with their specs, I prefer not listing stones that require a call for price.


I know alot of the branded stones aka Regent and Jubilee you cannot post prices, but what about your H&A''s?

Click prices on the left and it lists all stones and prices with links to details. Nice improvement!

 

[Maxine]

Date: 3/12/2005 3:28:58 PM
Author: Mara
Rhino...how horrible...and more work for you now to watermark the images!!

One Q..I was on your site this AM and noticed alot of H&A stones didn''t have prices any longer, is this all along the entire site, and if so why? From a consumer helping other consumers perspective, it will be very hard to recommend stones to people if I have no idea what the pricing is. Esp since many times we know people''s budgets and that is how I search for stones, aka what fits in their price range with their specs, I prefer not listing stones that require a call for price.

I know alot of the branded stones aka Regent and Jubilee you cannot post prices, but what about your H&A''s?

I had the same question as Mara....It would help me to have an idea of your prices...how else can I know whether to put it on my "wish list?"

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/12/2005 3:28:58 PM
Author: Mara
Rhino...how horrible...and more work for you now to watermark the images!!

One Q..I was on your site this AM and noticed alot of H&A stones didn''t have prices any longer, is this all along the entire site, and if so why? From a consumer helping other consumers perspective, it will be very hard to recommend stones to people if I have no idea what the pricing is. Esp since many times we know people''s budgets and that is how I search for stones, aka what fits in their price range with their specs, I prefer not listing stones that require a call for price.

I know alot of the branded stones aka Regent and Jubilee you cannot post prices, but what about your H&A''s?

Hi Mara,

Noobie hit it. Actually today (or yesterday) we just put a temp link right on the top of the H&A diamonds page which lists the details of every stone in house along with a link to all the details. This is shortly going to be converted to a comprehensive search engine which will at first feature all the rounds we stock, then shortly thereafter will include every shape we feature (Jubilee, Solasfera, Eighternity, SqH&A, etc.) So if a client wants to see all their options, not just among H&A stones but also Solasfera or Eighternity they''ll be able to see every super ideal available to them, not just among 57 facet rounds. Same with squares ... if clients want to search among H&A squares they''ll be able to pull up all those options within a given quality or price range.

And FINALLY our in house inventory is listed here on the search buy cut feature along with links to each stones data. Boy has that been a long time comin.

Peace,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/11/2005 4:23

3 PM
Author: Maxine
Wow...to your knowledge, it this a rather recent event.....? Or has it been going on......?

I''m not too sure just how long they''ve been doing this. Interestingly I had contacted this particular supplier around a month or 2 ago trying to locate a stone and was met with an unusual silence. Even after repeated emails to them would never get a response. Now I realize why. I''ve sent emails both to the retailer who was featuring their product and also to them.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/11/2005 5:37:43 PM
Author: mdx

Hi Jonathon

I reckon a visit to your lawyer is the appropriate thing here. This is blatant fraud.

I say this because your image in this case is a technical document relating to a specific diamond.

Your image was stolen and supplied to a consumer to falsely represent another diamond.

The fact that the vendors diamond was inferior is not even that relevant, the client was given false stolen information.

Its like sending a copy of a cert than supplying a diamond that does not relate to that cert.

We had a case like that in Australia and the culprits are now in jail.

Johan

Thanks for this info Johan.

 

[cute330xigrl]

This sucks but it is all so sadly common. Watermarks are a definite must. Even us ladies posting pics of our bands... Unsuspected sites can use it as "happy customer" images or as "products" they''re selling. Awful! Myself and car team friends have been victimized to this kinda crap more times than we''d like to admit. So we were forced to watermark everything. The more annoying thing about watermarking is how intrusive the placement needs to be in order for the punks to NOT be able to cut it out of the pic.

Make them pay Jonathan!

 

[denverappraiser]

Jonathan,

Thanks for the alert. I do occasionally see counterfeit documentation associated with a diamond that crosses my desk but this is the first time I’ve heard it suggested that it came from a source that far up the pipeline. The retailer probably didn’t even know. Scary situation.

A more or less invisible digital watermark service is available from www.digimarc.com that should allow you to track where your images end up online and it will create a system where consumers can tell if an image matches a particular stone. This won’t actually prevent the counterfeiters but at least it will make it easy to bust them if they use YOUR images.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Can you or Jonathon (or anyone who knows) tell us who don''t what you mean by watermarking and how we go about it.

Wink

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

I am just glad you caught them Johnathon,

Watermark,
It is a very good idea. It just means that your company has it''s name on the images, but in an uninvasive way - ie watermark (slightly transapent), but covering something that it if removed would ruin the shot.

It is a good way to advertise too and with all the photos posted here it helps interested people know where the jewellery came from.

I have a program for it, but it doesn''t allow me to put it where I like and the text look good.

Any good programs?

Phillip