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confused with SI2 diamond's clarity and value

faykis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2016
Messages
12
Hi all, I am from Sydney and looking forward to buy an solitaire RB diamond ring.

I was looking for something .75ct to .8ct. However once I went to a local reputable store (GS diamonds), they showed me a 0.9 carat diamnd.

Its a GIA RB F/ SI2/ 3ex/ no fluoro and priced AUD5700 (equivalent to USD4061)

the best thing about the diamond is its big. diameters are 6.23×6.24×3.83

It fits by budget very well for the size and its great white too. The only problem the inclusions. It looks eyeclean from the top. with loup there is a black spot at the top but i couldnt see anything from the top with naked eye even if i tried hard.

My main concern is the sides. I looked from the sides of the diamond and saw a few pinpoint kinda spots floating around. it was easily visible when I looked at it with naked eye from 6inches distance. I have already made up my mind to use a 4 claw setting where the sides of the stone will be visible. Do you guying think it will be worth buying this stone?

the lady at the store told me that if I look from the sides of the stone, inclusions will always be visible, even in SI1 and some VS2 stones as well they are if you look from the sides. is it true?

I am a bit worried. the other stones I found which were eye clean from the sides were .75 carat or maximum 5.9mm diameter which seems tiny. This one looked really large and lovely size for my budget, but I am sure I will keep looking at it from the sides.



I would appreciate your advice.

Thanks

F
 

PintoBean

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
6,583
No, I don't think its a good diamond for you because in addition to not fitting what your expectations are for eye clean, this diamond is far from mind clean for you.
 

ADN

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
311
Hi Faykis - I can't speak to this specific diamond (I'm in the trade and it's against forum rules) - what I can say, in general, is that you've hit the Australian market preference spot on...F/G colour eye clean SI2s are a big seller here in Aus - and because the market for these goods is so strong here, when I buy for stock, the first thing I jump on are the eye clean SI2s...and I would imagine that most of the the dealers you are looking to buy from would be the same, so you should be able to find a nice assortment of goods to choose from locally.
If you aren't happy with a particular stone (like PintoBean mentions...'mind clean'), then I wouldn't be overly concerned as you'll find a lot of selection. Ultimately, it's what you'll be comfortable with. And yes, it is true that many VS2/SI1 inclusions can be visible when viewed from the side.
Here's a helpful tip - if you can find a nice SI2 with clear/colourless/wispy/soft looking inclusions, or something near the girdle that won't reflect around the stone, or can be covered by a claw, this would make the inclusions more difficult to see from the side than solid/dark inclusions.
.90s are always a bit tough size...especially .95-.99ct...but if you can find a nice 90+ you like, it can be a very good buy - you're getting fairly close to the 1ct mm face up spread, while avoiding paying the 'premium' that is usually associated with hitting the 1ct weight.
Hope this helps
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
22,683
Inclusions will not ALWAYS be visible from the side. They may or may not. All depends on the inclusions. That being said,
clarity is graded from the top down and not from the sides. If you are putting it in a setting that pretty much covers the
sides then the side view may not be a big deal. If the setting exposes the sides, or it's a mind clean issue, then you may
have to either going higher up in clarity (VS1 or higher) or keep looking until you find an SI1 that is fairly clean from the side.

Are you using the HCA tool to make sure the angles/tables/depth are all working together? Look for a stone that scores 2 or less.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

I see ADN just posted and I may have said some of the same things but I'll post anyway.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,283
Actually, 5.85 mm is pretty normal size for an excellent cut stone at .75 cts. So I really wonder about the cut of that stone having that kind of diameter. What are the table, depth, crown and pavilion angles from the GIA report?

I wouldn't give a non-eyeclean stone a second thought. Not even worth thinking about.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
tyty333 said:
Inclusions will not ALWAYS be visible from the side. They may or may not. All depends on the inclusions. That being said,
clarity is graded from the top down and not from the sides. If you are putting it in a setting that pretty much covers the
sides then the side view may not be a big deal. If the setting exposes the sides, or it's a mind clean issue, then you may
have to either going higher up in clarity (VS1 or higher) or keep looking until you find an SI1 that is fairly clean from the side.

Are you using the HCA tool to make sure the angles/tables/depth are all working together? Look for a stone that scores 2 or less.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

I see ADN just posted and I may have said some of the same things but I'll post anyway.
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
 

faykis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2016
Messages
12
Thanks ADN, ''Here's a helpful tip - if you can find a nice SI2 with clear/colourless/wispy/soft looking inclusions, or something near the girdle that won't reflect around the stone, or can be covered by a claw, this would make the inclusions more difficult to see from the side than solid/dark inclusions.''
--this is exactly what I am looking for without any luck for last 2 weeks. I have tried a view interstate store who quoted me good price for .9 GSI1 store, but they wont tell me what color/ size/kind of inclusions are visible from the sides. the .9F/SI2 stone that I personally inspected gives me a nightmare. I could easily see black pepper like sands/ spots were floating all over when seen from the sides/ at-least 5-6 in number. I still cant forget those spots. so when vendors reply to my email saying ''inclusions are visible from side'' I am panicking. Is possible to know whether the spots are whitish/ less obvious or black spots from GIA report which says ''crystals. clouds, needles'' in a si1 stone?
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
faykis said:
Thanks ADN, ''Here's a helpful tip - if you can find a nice SI2 with clear/colourless/wispy/soft looking inclusions, or something near the girdle that won't reflect around the stone, or can be covered by a claw, this would make the inclusions more difficult to see from the side than solid/dark inclusions.''
--this is exactly what I am looking for without any luck for last 2 weeks. I have tried a view interstate store who quoted me good price for .9 GSI1 store, but they wont tell me what color/ size/kind of inclusions are visible from the sides. the .9F/SI2 stone that I personally inspected gives me a nightmare. I could easily see black pepper like sands/ spots were floating all over when seen from the sides/ at-least 5-6 in number. I still cant forget those spots. so when vendors reply to my email saying ''inclusions are visible from side'' I am panicking. Is possible to know whether the spots are whitish/ less obvious or black spots from GIA report which says ''crystals. clouds, needles'' in a si1 stone?
In addition to my previous reply on how inclusions are plotted on the report - the dossier certificate for stones lighter than a carat don't have an inclusion plot at all.
Also crystals can be of any colour and GIA report doesn't mention what colour is it.

Also in majority of the cases if an inclusion is invisible from the face up it could be visible from the side view because the side view doesn't reflect light like the crown view. If those are crystals.

Also it's not about eye clean as much as it is about mind clean right now. Nobody looks at their stone in the side view at 6 inches all the time. But since a stone is not clean enough in your mind you will never love it as much. I would suggest you to keep looking untill you can find a stone that is mind clean for you.
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
PS34one said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
GIA book prescribes grading a diamond from both crown and Pavillion view, holding a diamond table-culet, dividing a diamond into wedges and grading diamond one wedge at a time.

An inclusion is an inclusion if you can view it 10x. Face up has nothing to do with it. 10x has to do with it. In many VVS1 stones the inclusion viewed at 10x is not visible from crown view.

This is an intercept from the GIA text book:

". Thoroughly examine the first wedge. Start with the pavilion surface,
then look through the diamond from the pavilion toward the crown.
Slowly turn the diamond to examine the girdle area. Finally, turn the
diamond to the face-up view. Examine the crown surface and the
diamond’s interior.
7. Rotate the diamond from one section to the next and perform the
same thorough pavilion, girdle, and crown examination procedure
with each turn."

Hope this helps.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,449
PS34one|1456783821|3997530 said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
+1 gr8leo87
PS43one...... you have to look at the diamond from ALL angles when grading for clarity.
The location of the imperfection is not the issue- it's the presence.
An SI2 sized imperfection may be invisible when viewed through the crown- but possible to see with a loupe from the side. So you have to turn the diamond over and look through the pavilion to accurately grade it's clarity.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
gr8leo87 said:
tyty333 said:
Inclusions will not ALWAYS be visible from the side. They may or may not. All depends on the inclusions. That being said,
clarity is graded from the top down and not from the sides. If you are putting it in a setting that pretty much covers the
sides then the side view may not be a big deal. If the setting exposes the sides, or it's a mind clean issue, then you may
have to either going higher up in clarity (VS1 or higher) or keep looking until you find an SI1 that is fairly clean from the side.

Are you using the HCA tool to make sure the angles/tables/depth are all working together? Look for a stone that scores 2 or less.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

I see ADN just posted and I may have said some of the same things but I'll post anyway.
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
Also a correction on plotting:

1. Most inclusions are plotted on the crown
2. Inclusions only visible through Pavillion are plotted on pavilion.
3. Blemishes are plotted where they occur (only natural and extra facet are plotted on GIA report
4. Surface breaching inclusions (feathers, cavity, knot, etch channel, bruise) are plotted where they breach surface.
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
Rockdiamond|1456786740|3997558 said:
PS34one|1456783821|3997530 said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
+1 gr8leo87
PS43one...... you have to look at the diamond from ALL angles when grading for clarity.
The location of the imperfection is not the issue- it's the presence.
An SI2 sized imperfection may be invisible when viewed through the crown- but possible to see with a loupe from the side. So you have to turn the diamond over and look through the pavilion to accurately grade it's clarity.

No, incorrect. Your talking about the plotting portion of diamond grading. To create an accurate plot the diamond must be examined from all angles (ie: the wedge technique) Assigning a Final Clarity grade is the final assessment of the ease of visibility of inclusions viewed face up through 10x magnification with a loupe. A plot, and assigning a clarity are 2 seperate steps in the grading process and clarity is NOT assessed from the side view.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,449
HI ps34one....maybe I'm missing your point...if you're saying that an eye clean SI2 can be virtually identical to an Internally Flawless diamond viewed face up, then we agree.
Sometimes you have to look through the pavilion to see why a given diamond was graded SI2.
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
Rockdiamond|1456786740|3997558 said:
PS34one|1456783821|3997530 said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
+1 gr8leo87
PS43one...... you have to look at the diamond from ALL angles when grading for clarity.
The location of the imperfection is not the issue- it's the presence.
An SI2 sized imperfection may be invisible when viewed through the crown- but possible to see with a loupe from the side. So you have to turn the diamond over and look through the pavilion to accurately grade it's clarity.
Actually Location is a factor. When clarity grading, four things are taken into consideration in regards to the inclusion. Location, size, nature, and relief.
It's all factors 4 combined. An SI2 inclusion will always be visible through the crown, that's precisely WHY it's been assigned the clarity grade of S12.
As I said before, the ONLY time a diamond clarity will be assigned through the pavilion is in the case of a VVS1 or IF. The highest grades are reserved for minute imperfections that are not visible at 10x mag face up. Most commonly VVS1 contain Pinpoints, those pinpoints must be visible only through the pavilion with a loup.
The first step in assigning a clarity is to loupe the diamond face up. If inclusions are obvious, it's I1 range. Slightly obvious is Si1-SI2, minor is vs1-vs2 minute is VVS. After the plot is complete, Location, Size, Nature and reliefe are considered and then the diamond is looped again FACE UP and the final Clarity grade is assigned.

I just want to clarify again, Diamond Plotting and Clarity Grading are two separate steps in the grading process. One helps with the other, but the final grade is not determined by louping through the side whatsoever.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
Not according to the GIA guidelines on examining a diamond.

And examination is different from plotting.

According to your theory - I would be plotting inclusions on both sides - as many inclusions are visible upfront and from the back.

There are many VVS1 diamonds with inclusions visible only from the Pavilion.

Fortunately I found an inclusion plot of a VVS1 stone that has inclusions plotted only on Pavillion which means these inclusions were only visible from the Pavilion view.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
This is an inclusion plot of a 1.07 E VVS 1 GIA certified.

And shows inclusion only on pavilion - meaning these were only visible from the pavilion view.

I rest my case.

2016-03-01.png
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
PS34one|1456793706|3997618 said:
Rockdiamond|1456786740|3997558 said:
PS34one|1456783821|3997530 said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
+1 gr8leo87
PS43one...... you have to look at the diamond from ALL angles when grading for clarity.
The location of the imperfection is not the issue- it's the presence.
An SI2 sized imperfection may be invisible when viewed through the crown- but possible to see with a loupe from the side. So you have to turn the diamond over and look through the pavilion to accurately grade it's clarity.

No, incorrect. Your talking about the plotting portion of diamond grading. To create an accurate plot the diamond must be examined from all angles (ie: the wedge technique) Assigning a Final Clarity grade is the final assessment of the ease of visibility of inclusions viewed face up through 10x magnification with a loupe. A plot, and assigning a clarity are 2 seperate steps in the grading process and clarity is NOT assessed from the side view.
Clarity is assessed from everywhere. Top, side, bottom. What about a VVS size feather starting at girdle and breaching the pavilion? It will not be visible face up in 10x. And according to your theory this diamond will receive an IF grade despite having a surface breaching inclusion.

And there are actually Five factors that affect the clarity grade. Size, Number, Location, Relief, Nature. But that's not the topic at hand.
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
Rockdiamond|1456796331|3997635 said:
HI ps34one....maybe I'm missing your point...if you're saying that an eye clean SI2 can be virtually identical to an Internally Flawless diamond viewed face up, then we agree.
Sometimes you have to look through the pavilion to see why a given diamond was graded SI2.
I'm just trying to be clear about Gemological Diamond Grading, as opposed to a consumer view. I know what you mean when you say "eye clean" the problem is it's not a Gemological term nor is something you will ever be taught at GIA. It's just a consumer term. Diamond Graders in a lab never consider that when they are clarity grading because it's a non issue. I can understand a person wanting an SI1 stone that is "eye clean" from the top or side, but whether it is or not has absolutely no bearing on what determined the Final Clarity grade.

You can have one S12 diamond that you can see a crystal from the side view, or one SI2 diamond with twining wisps you can not see from the side. They might both be your definition of "eye clean" face up.
At the end of the day they are both S12 because the nature, size, location, and relief viewed face up at 10x view magnification are what set the grade. There may be some general rules on how to find what you consider "eye clean".

My main point is that it is absolutely and Gemologicaly incorrect to say that a diamond Clarity is determined from any other view than face up. (With the exception of VVS+)
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
gr8leo87|1456799355|3997652 said:
Not according to the GIA guidelines on examining a diamond.

And examination is different from plotting.

According to your theory - I would be plotting inclusions on both sides - as many inclusions are visible upfront and from the back.

There are many VVS1 diamonds with inclusions visible only from the Pavilion.

Fortunately I found an inclusion plot of a VVS1 stone that has inclusions plotted only on Pavillion which means these inclusions were only visible from the Pavilion view.
It's not a theory, it's Gemology. As I said, the ONLY TIME a clarity grade will be assessed any other way than face up is in the case of VVS1+.

If those Pinpoints on the pavilion had been visible through the crown view FACE UP at 10x they would have been plotted on the crown because they can be louped and it would be a VVS2.

The very reason they were plotted there is because that is the only place they could be seen. Likewise, even though the feather breaks on the Paviolion, it was not loupable FACE UP because then the clarity would also have been a VVS2. Like you said correctly, surface reaching are plotted where they break, so it could be the only thing on the entire plot and still have a grade of VVS2.
VVS1 and above clarity can have no loupable characteristics face up. IF must have no loupable characteristics at all.
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
gr8leo87|1456799915|3997657 said:
PS34one|1456793706|3997618 said:
Rockdiamond|1456786740|3997558 said:
PS34one|1456783821|3997530 said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
+1 gr8leo87
PS43one...... you have to look at the diamond from ALL angles when grading for clarity.
The location of the imperfection is not the issue- it's the presence.
An SI2 sized imperfection may be invisible when viewed through the crown- but possible to see with a loupe from the side. So you have to turn the diamond over and look through the pavilion to accurately grade it's clarity.

No, incorrect. Your talking about the plotting portion of diamond grading. To create an accurate plot the diamond must be examined from all angles (ie: the wedge technique) Assigning a Final Clarity grade is the final assessment of the ease of visibility of inclusions viewed face up through 10x magnification with a loupe. A plot, and assigning a clarity are 2 seperate steps in the grading process and clarity is NOT assessed from the side view.
Clarity is assessed from everywhere. Top, side, bottom. What about a VVS size feather starting at girdle and breaching the pavilion? It will not be visible face up in 10x. And according to your theory this diamond will receive an IF grade despite having a surface breaching inclusion.

And there are actually Five factors that affect the clarity grade. Size, Number, Location, Relief, Nature. But that's not the topic at hand.
Clarity Charectoristics are assessed from all views. Clarity GRADES are NOT. You are only assuming that a feather starting in the girdle and breaking the pavilion will not be loupable from the face up view. That is exactly my point. The grader will be looking for it face up to decide to give the grade VVS1 or VVS2.
I prefaced my original post with the exceptions. Most exceptions are a nature issue. Some tiney feathers might not face up but if it's deep enough it could still be a VVS2 based on Nature.
Anyway too much hypothetical minutia.

I can tell your passionate and smart. I'm not just trying to argue, sincerely. Pretty much everything you have said is spot on, but trust me Diamond Clarities are assigned Face Up at 10x magnification.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,449
Hi again PS43one
As gr8leo87 has shown to you on a GIA plot, and his excellent knowledge of GIA procedures, as well as my gazillion hours of actual experience with GIA graded stones- we can assure you that GIA examines the diamond from all angles to determine the clarity grade.
It's not my definition of "eye clean".
Some SI1-2 and even very rare I1 imperfections are simply not visible through the table or through the crown at all. In many cases, the imperfection is easy to see looking through the side ( pavilion)
But there's even rare cases where even most pavilion views will seem perfectly clean on SI graded stones. This can occur when a feather is perfectly lined up so you can only see it from one angle through the pavilion.
I've been grading diamonds professionally for many years, and often submit diamonds to GIA- I've personally seen this in SI clarity GIA graded diamonds.
Such a stone will look like a flawless from every other angle but the one that allows you to see the feather.

This is an important aspect- as SI2 diamonds can present a really nice value for consumers. There are indeed a percentage of SI1-2 diamonds that are totally eye clean through the crown.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
PS34one said:
Rockdiamond|1456796331|3997635 said:
HI ps34one....maybe I'm missing your point...if you're saying that an eye clean SI2 can be virtually identical to an Internally Flawless diamond viewed face up, then we agree.
Sometimes you have to look through the pavilion to see why a given diamond was graded SI2.
I'm just trying to be clear about Gemological Diamond Grading, as opposed to a consumer view. I know what you mean when you say "eye clean" the problem is it's not a Gemological term nor is something you will ever be taught at GIA. It's just a consumer term. Diamond Graders in a lab never consider that when they are clarity grading because it's a non issue. I can understand a person wanting an SI1 stone that is "eye clean" from the top or side, but whether it is or not has absolutely no bearing on what determined the Final Clarity grade.

You can have one S12 diamond that you can see a crystal from the side view, or one SI2 diamond with twining wisps you can not see from the side. They might both be your definition of "eye clean" face up.
At the end of the day they are both S12 because the nature, size, location, and relief viewed face up at 10x view magnification are what set the grade. There may be some general rules on how to find what you consider "eye clean".

My main point is that it is absolutely and Gemologicaly incorrect to say that a diamond Clarity is determined from any other view than face up. (With the exception of VVS+)
Ok so now we have an exception. In a few more Posts we might be in total agreement that clarity would be graded from all sides. :)
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
PS34one said:
gr8leo87|1456799355|3997652 said:
Not according to the GIA guidelines on examining a diamond.

And examination is different from plotting.

According to your theory - I would be plotting inclusions on both sides - as many inclusions are visible upfront and from the back.

There are many VVS1 diamonds with inclusions visible only from the Pavilion.

Fortunately I found an inclusion plot of a VVS1 stone that has inclusions plotted only on Pavillion which means these inclusions were only visible from the Pavilion view.
It's not a theory, it's Gemology. As I said, the ONLY TIME a clarity grade will be assessed any other way than face up is in the case of VVS1+.

If those Pinpoints on the pavilion had been visible through the crown view FACE UP at 10x they would have been plotted on the crown because they can be louped and it would be a VVS2.

The very reason they were plotted there is because that is the only place they could be seen. Likewise, even though the feather breaks on the Paviolion, it was not loupable FACE UP because then the clarity would also have been a VVS2. Like you said correctly, surface reaching are plotted where they break, so it could be the only thing on the entire plot and still have a grade of VVS2.
VVS1 and above clarity can have no loupable characteristics face up. IF must have no loupable characteristics at all.
It would be FL to have no loup able characteristics at all. IF can have loupable blemishes and they might be plotted too for example extra facets and naturals. But if you meant inclusions by characteristics then that's another things. Blemishes and inclusions collectively are referred to as clarity characteristics.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
PS34one said:
gr8leo87|1456799915|3997657 said:
PS34one|1456793706|3997618 said:
Rockdiamond|1456786740|3997558 said:
PS34one|1456783821|3997530 said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
+1 gr8leo87
PS43one...... you have to look at the diamond from ALL angles when grading for clarity.
The location of the imperfection is not the issue- it's the presence.
An SI2 sized imperfection may be invisible when viewed through the crown- but possible to see with a loupe from the side. So you have to turn the diamond over and look through the pavilion to accurately grade it's clarity.

No, incorrect. Your talking about the plotting portion of diamond grading. To create an accurate plot the diamond must be examined from all angles (ie: the wedge technique) Assigning a Final Clarity grade is the final assessment of the ease of visibility of inclusions viewed face up through 10x magnification with a loupe. A plot, and assigning a clarity are 2 seperate steps in the grading process and clarity is NOT assessed from the side view.
Clarity is assessed from everywhere. Top, side, bottom. What about a VVS size feather starting at girdle and breaching the pavilion? It will not be visible face up in 10x. And according to your theory this diamond will receive an IF grade despite having a surface breaching inclusion.

And there are actually Five factors that affect the clarity grade. Size, Number, Location, Relief, Nature. But that's not the topic at hand.
Clarity Charectoristics are assessed from all views. Clarity GRADES are NOT. You are only assuming that a feather starting in the girdle and breaking the pavilion will not be loupable from the face up view. That is exactly my point. The grader will be looking for it face up to decide to give the grade VVS1 or VVS2.
I prefaced my original post with the exceptions. Most exceptions are a nature issue. Some tiney feathers might not face up but if it's deep enough it could still be a VVS2 based on Nature.
Anyway too much hypothetical minutia.

I can tell your passionate and smart. I'm not just trying to argue, sincerely. Pretty much everything you have said is spot on, but trust me Diamond Clarities are assigned Face Up at 10x magnification.
What you are telling me is that a diamond with grade setting VS1 size crystal viewable face up with 10 vvs size feathers from girdle to Pavillion not viewable face up would still be graded VS1. That's all my issue is. It's not about face up view ability. It's about viewability from any where under 10x. But lets just agree to disagree.
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
Rockdiamond|1456804474|3997702 said:
Hi again PS43one
As gr8leo87 has shown to you on a GIA plot, and his excellent knowledge of GIA procedures, as well as my gazillion hours of actual experience with GIA graded stones- we can assure you that GIA examines the diamond from all angles to determine the clarity grade.
It's not my definition of "eye clean".
Some SI1-2 and even very rare I1 imperfections are simply not visible through the table or through the crown at all. In many cases, the imperfection is easy to see looking through the side ( pavilion)
But there's even rare cases where even most pavilion views will seem perfectly clean on SI graded stones. This can occur when a feather is perfectly lined up so you can only see it from one angle through the pavilion.
I've been grading diamonds professionally for many years, and often submit diamonds to GIA- I've personally seen this in SI clarity GIA graded diamonds.
Such a stone will look like a flawless from every other angle but the one that allows you to see the feather.

This is an important aspect- as SI2 diamonds can present a really nice value for consumers. There are indeed a percentage of SI1-2 diamonds that are totally eye clean through the crown.
Sure they present a great value, because a lot of S11-2 don't really look included to the naked eye. Even from the side. But I'm not talking about value, or what's appealing to a buyer. I'm talking about GIA Gemological diamond grading procedures.

I'm not sure what could be lost in translation about what I am trying to say, and my point is that when a diamond grader, at a laboratory, identifies the clarity Charectoristics in a diamond, and makes a plot, (or is doing a dossier) before they put the grade on the document they use a 10x magnification loupe to view the diamond face up and use the information they have and the 10x face up view to assign a clarity grade. It's the loupable visibility face up (or potential nature) of the incusions that set the Clarity Grade. It does not matter what is visible from the side, (they do plot at all views or identify inclusions but) THEY DONT LOUPE the sides before they finalize the grade. As I said, *with exception* clarity clarictoristics like the ones givin in the example plot of a VVS1 + will be be louped from the pavilion, and still are evaluated/checked face up to be sure pinpoints or other do not affect/are not visible face up. Please understand what I am saying applies WITH a 10x loupe.
There is no diamond that will come out of GIA graded S11 or lower where the inclusion will NOT be visible face up at 10x mag. Rarely Regarding VS1-2, I'll even give you another exception just to further make my point: say you have A VS clarity grade and an empty Plot with a comment "clarity based on clouds not shown" the diamond will look hazy face up. To say you could have a SI1 or I1 diamond that you have to loupe through the Paviolion to see the inclusions is nothing I gave ever heard or seen, it's not even logical. Find a plot that represents one of those grades with no inclusions that face up, it doesn't exist.
Respectfully, It's amazing to me you have graded many diamonds and not grasp this rule of grading. And if you have in fact received a GIA Diamond and Diamond Grading certification including the lab training I'm very surprised you missed this. Next time you talk to someone from GIA ask then if they loup a diamond from the side view before they decide in a final grade in anything below a VVS.
what I am saying is a practical FACT.
Im not in this business anymore, I still love Jewelry and I poke around here but rarely post as you can see. I've tried to clarify as best I can that Clarity is assessed face up because I think it's important. I'm to tired to debate. I hope someone else chimes in to verify what I'm saying. My Sincerest best to you both! :wavey:
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
gr8leo87|1456812415|3997744 said:
PS34one said:
gr8leo87|1456799915|3997657 said:
PS34one|1456793706|3997618 said:
Rockdiamond|1456786740|3997558 said:
PS34one|1456783821|3997530 said:
gr8leo87|1456625950|3996811 said:
I would respectfully dispute the notion that clarity is graded face up. Clarity is graded from all the sides of the diamonds except for some clarity features that are confined entirely within the girdle and not visible under the loupe from crown or Pavilion view. However most of the inclusions are plotted on the crown view on the inclusion plot. And surface breaching inclusions (feather, knot, cavity, etch channel) are plotted wherever they breach surface. It's entirely possible for a feather to be plotted on crown and pavillion both if it breaches both.

Also eye clean SI2s are perfectly suited to the Australian market right now considering the beating the Aussi $ has had in recent times. But SI2s can be tricky. They can be milky/hazy at times or may have eye visible inclusions under certain lighting especially if a black crystal is a grade setting inclusion.

I agree with ADN and eye clean SI2s are my favorite spot as well. There's a good price difference between SI1 and SI2 but unfortunately nice eye clean SI2s come at a slight premium.

Good luck with your search.
gr8leo87,
I don't mean to sound blunt, but you are incorrect, Diamond clarity is always assessed from the face up view at 10x mag.
The plot is to record internal characteristics and identify the stone, plotting has nothing to do with a clarity call. A consumer may take an interest in the visibility of an inclusion from the side or other view, but a grader will not.
The only exception to this would be on the nature or location of an inclusion in a very high grade, example: A feather in the girdle that is to large to qualify as VVS1-2 but does not loupe face up easily. (These exceptions are rare.)
Or a VVS1 clarity that will have no face up inclusions at 10x, thus pinpoints or other must be louped at 10x from the pavilion view.
Otherwise, its face up, 10x, everytime.
+1 gr8leo87
PS43one...... you have to look at the diamond from ALL angles when grading for clarity.
The location of the imperfection is not the issue- it's the presence.
An SI2 sized imperfection may be invisible when viewed through the crown- but possible to see with a loupe from the side. So you have to turn the diamond over and look through the pavilion to accurately grade it's clarity.

No, incorrect. Your talking about the plotting portion of diamond grading. To create an accurate plot the diamond must be examined from all angles (ie: the wedge technique) Assigning a Final Clarity grade is the final assessment of the ease of visibility of inclusions viewed face up through 10x magnification with a loupe. A plot, and assigning a clarity are 2 seperate steps in the grading process and clarity is NOT assessed from the side view.
Clarity is assessed from everywhere. Top, side, bottom. What about a VVS size feather starting at girdle and breaching the pavilion? It will not be visible face up in 10x. And according to your theory this diamond will receive an IF grade despite having a surface breaching inclusion.

And there are actually Five factors that affect the clarity grade. Size, Number, Location, Relief, Nature. But that's not the topic at hand.
Clarity Charectoristics are assessed from all views. Clarity GRADES are NOT. You are only assuming that a feather starting in the girdle and breaking the pavilion will not be loupable from the face up view. That is exactly my point. The grader will be looking for it face up to decide to give the grade VVS1 or VVS2.
I prefaced my original post with the exceptions. Most exceptions are a nature issue. Some tiney feathers might not face up but if it's deep enough it could still be a VVS2 based on Nature.
Anyway too much hypothetical minutia.

I can tell your passionate and smart. I'm not just trying to argue, sincerely. Pretty much everything you have said is spot on, but trust me Diamond Clarities are assigned Face Up at 10x magnification.
What you are telling me is that a diamond with grade setting VS1 size crystal viewable face up with 10 vvs size feathers from girdle to Pavillion not viewable face up would still be graded VS1. That's all my issue is. It's not about face up view ability. It's about viewability from any where under 10x. But lets just agree to disagree.
I see what you are saying, and that could be the case but you can't then say the clarity grade is not lastly determined with the face up view. Every diamond is different, as we agree, nature and number (I always forget that one it's the most obvious) is a factor. 10 VVS feathers on the Paviolion that don't loupe may or may not lower the grade to a VS2 (doubtful they will but I've seen weird stuff here and there) but the Face up Crystal is the grade setter. The grader will be aware they are there and consider it, but they won't loupe the VVS feathers from the side before they decide. The crystal is more important. I'm just saying as a general rule, clarity is determined face up. It's misleading and inaccurate to say otherwise without lengthy explanations, as I'm sure everyone now painfully understands from our discussion. :lol: :loopy:
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,449
si1-cert-plot.jpg

HI Ps34one
Here's a textbook example of how a grader needs to fully examine a diamond to accurately issue a clarity grade:
Please note that the grade setting feather is plotted on the pavilion,
The pinpoint would earn a VVS2, if it was the only imperfection, IMO.

Speaking as a trained grader, who is looking at the actual diamond from this report- you would need to turn the diamond over to find the feather. It's totally impossible to find the feather through the crown due to the way the light bounces around the diamond.
Also, the pinpoint is very tiny- you can find it from the top with a 10x loupe- but again, if you want to issue an accurate clarity grade you're going to want to look from behind to help visualize exactly where the pinpoint is. Furthermore, there would be no possibility that unaided human eyes could differentiate this diamond from one with all other identical characteristics, but Flawless. In other words, the diamond is totally eye clean.
This diamond is larger than 3cts- so it's not even a tiny stone.

Beyond this, I'm with gr8leo we need to agree to disagree. If you can find another professional who concurs with your opinion it would be interesting.
 

PS34one

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
51
I guarantee you 100% that feather is visible face up with a 10x loupe. Its the grade setter, the pinpoint is irrelevant, its there because its the only identifiable internal inclusion. They don't care what it looks like face up without the loupe, you don't grade like that, they dont care what I looks like from the pavilion through the loupe. Maybe you couldn't loupe it face up, but a diamond grader at GIA easily can and DID. It was an SI1 the moment they picked it up and louped it before it ever went in the scope for plotting.
They didn't locate it, plot it, then loupe it face up (as is grading standard) and say "oh gee I cant loupe that feather right under the table on the main, hmm.. what grade should I go... I better loupe it from the bottom....oh yup there it is, Slightly obvious from pavilion, invisible when I loupe it face up, SI1..."
That's ludicrous. I'm sorry, but for the Love of Gemology, would someone else PLEASE help me out here this is ridiculous. for price scope of all places, I'm astounded. Im having a hard time right now believing you ever took Diamond dia. grading at GIA. Really. Ok I'm really done. I give up.
 
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