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Confused in the Carribean

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Chesapeake

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 5, 2006
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19
I''m new to this site and am looking forward to the input and education ahead. I don''t know how lengthy messages can be so I''m just going to try and be brief with my story. I have a ring "on hold" for me in St. Thomas for our 30 year anniversary that has the following:

3 stones, Past, Present & Future ring - they''re all round brilliants

1st stone:
2.04 carat
8.20 x 8.24 x 4.94
Depth: 60.1%
Table: 61%
Thin to Medium
None
Polish: Exc.
Symmetry: VG
VS1
D


2nd stone:
1.00 carat
6.42 x 6.45 x 3.84
Table 60%
Depth 60%
D
VS1
Cut: Good
Polish: VG
Symmetry: VG
None

3rd stone:
1.00 carat
6.36 x 6.41 x 3.93
Table 60%
Depth 61.6%
Extremely thin to slight thick
None
VVS2
D
No fluroescence

OK, after getting back home from our trip I started looking around because the whole ring is $78K.....I don''t have individual prices for each stone. I contacted a wholesaler and found that I can get this:

Stone #1
AGS Ideal 0 (what does the 0 mean)
Polish: Ideal
Symm: Ideal
Prop: Ideal
Table: 55%
Depth: 61.3%
Color: D
Clarity: VS1
2.04 Carat

Stone #2
GIA cert.
1.01 carat
D
VS2
Cut: Exc.
Pol: VG
Symm: VG
Table: 58%
Depth: 60.8%

Stone #3
l.03 carat
D
VS2
Cut: Exc.
Pol. VG
Symm: VG
Table: 58%
Depth: 61.4%

The second set of stones can be had for $48K.

My confusion lies with the differences of opinion about cut. I was told that the 3 stones in "my" ring lack quality cut by the guy that wants to sell me the second set of stones. I need unbiased opinions and because I don''t have the ring from st. thomas I can''t get an indepent appraiser to look at it. This is a very big deal and alot of $$$. I really need some advice. I saw the ring put together in St. Thomas and it''s really beautiful. We gave them a 10K deposit so we''re sort of commited unless we want to get ugly. Our credit card company will help us but, ickkk I hate doing that if we can work something out. I talked with the jeweler in ST. T and he said he''s going to talk to the owners and see how much lower they can go because I sent him the certs for the second set above. HELP PLEASE..............

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1.026 D VS2: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/a-cut-above-h-a-cut-diamond-1383927.htm
1.03 D VS1: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/1928/

2.04 E VS2: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/361/ <even this one, as beautiful as it is, is not perfect as it is a little deep and seems to leak light partially just a little under the table. it is still very beautiful. however, giant colorless diamonds are rare.

For a total of $55096.

I'm not pressuring you to buy these stones, buy from these vendors, or buy online. This is purely for comparison purposes, because the second set of two sidestones are also probably lacking in cut quality.

Good luck! I know this is a lot of money and it's very important.
 
Oh, my. Huge price difference, isn't there.
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Well, those guys in St Thomas had better come WAY down, hadn't they? Otherwise, you could forfeit your deposit, buy the second ring, and still come out ahead.

Other cut freaks can comment on the difference between the cuts of the first and second set. My uneducated guess is that the second set is superior.

But I CAN say that if the stones in the first set do NOT come with GIA reports, it could be a deal breaker, and maybe you could get your $$$ back. If that's too sticky, I'd insist that the seller send out all three stones to the GIA, and if the GIA stats don't corroborate the numbers previously quoted, THEN I'd insist on getting my deposit back.

Good luck, Dear...
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Oh my goodness!!! We have recently had another conversation on here by someone who was basically cheated like that on some island.

Cut is THE most important factor, and if the prices were EQUAL, I'd FAR rather have the SECOND set of stones!!! AGS 0 means the stone has the very highest cut quality (ideal cut) as graded by the AGS, which is a very reputable lab. The GIA EX is the highest cut quality by GIA, also reputable. The first set of stones are not ideal cut and you don't have any certification listed.

You need to get help from your credit card company immediately. The second set of stones are better quality and more realistically priced. Those first people would be robbing you! Don't let them!
 
Let me add congratulations on your 30th! Ours is in December and I am also on here ring shopping (but not for one as wonderful as yours!). I hope you'll come back and post pictures when your ring is ready...we'd love to see it! (and I desperately hope it is the second set of stones!!!!)
 
Date: 5/5/2006 6:47:14 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Oh my goodness!!! We have recently had another conversation on here by someone who was basically cheated like that on some island.

Cut is THE most important factor, and if the prices were EQUAL, I''d FAR rather have the SECOND set of stones!!! AGS 0 means the stone has the very highest cut quality (ideal cut) as graded by the AGS, which is a very reputable lab. The GIA EX is the highest cut quality by GIA, also reputable. The first set of stones are not ideal cut and you don''t have any certification listed.

You need to get help from your credit card company immediately. The second set of stones are better quality and more realistically priced. Those first people would be robbing you! Don''t let them!
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I remember that post too. I''ve been looking for it to show Chesapeake but have been unable to find it.
BTW Welcome Chesapeake,
35.gif
and congrats on 30 years.
36.gif
 
Yes, sorry forgot that. The first set are all GIA certified.
 
Which set of stones are you suggesting may be lacking in cut quality? The ones you sent or, from my initial e-mail?
 
Date: 5/5/2006 6:02:48 PM
Author:Chesapeake

My confusion lies with the differences of opinion about cut. I was told that the 3 stones in ''my'' ring lack quality cut by the guy that wants to sell me the second set of stones. I need unbiased opinions and because I don''t have the ring from st. thomas I can''t get an indepent appraiser to look at it. This is a very big deal and alot of $$$. I really need some advice. I saw the ring put together in St. Thomas and it''s really beautiful. We gave them a 10K deposit so we''re sort of commited unless we want to get ugly. Our credit card company will help us but, ickkk I hate doing that if we can work something out. I talked with the jeweler in ST. T and he said he''s going to talk to the owners and see how much lower they can go because I sent him the certs for the second set above. HELP PLEASE..............

33.gif
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Linda
35.gif

$78k
23.gif
first try get your $10k deposit back then,let the PSers help you spend the money on top quality cut stones.
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She meant the St. Thomas stones are lacking in cut quality. She was showing you alternative high quality stones at $55,000 to illustrate that the St. Thomas stones are WAAAY overpriced. We could help you find some great stones online, but if you prefer to go ahead and choose between the St. Thomas diamonds and the wholesaler diamonds, go with the wholesaler! His stones are much better than the others even if St. Thomas matched the price. You do not want to pay that much for a fine ring with so-so cut diamonds.
 
You have received some great advice so far. Get your deposit back if you can, step back, take a deep breath, spend some time here and learn about diamonds, then go looking and assemble the perfect stones for your new ring. They can all come from one vendor, or from two or even three vendors if that is what it takes to find what you want, then choose who you will have make the mounting. For a ring of this importance you may well want to contact Leon Mege or Mark Morrell. You will pay a few dollars more, but you will be incredibly happy with the results.

Welcome to Pricescope, you are about to meet a LOT of very interesting people!

Wink
 
Oh gosh, yes! Take a look at Mark Morrell''s settings:

http://www.mwmjewelry.com/

Be sure to go to the bottom and click on new projects. A ring like this deserves the very best of settings!
 
Date: 5/5/2006 7:39:32 PM
Author: widget
I found it! Linda, here''s a link to the thread referred to earlier. Similar story, but with a very happy ending. Were you on a cruise when you visited St Thomas?

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/bad-diamond-buying-experience-need-your-advice-on-moving-forward-very-long.43250/=

I hope your''s will be happy, too.

Very best wishes to you on your thirtieth!

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Thanks Widget.
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I hope your situation has as good of an ending Chesapeake.
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I''ve been looking at stones on Blue Nile, David James, WhiteFlash and one more but I forgot the name. Most of them had smaller table percentages however, David James had stones very similar to my 2 carat for $35K - $37K that look pretty good. He actually had two with higher table percentages. How can you tell that the st. thomas stones have inferior cuts to the wholesaler''s stones?
 
Table between 53% and 58%, in combination with the right crown and pavilion angles. But generally, somewhere between 55-57%

While it's possible to have a table of 60% and still look good, it is HIGHLY unlikely.

Also, stone 3 of St. Thomas has a girdle of extremely thin (dangerous) to thick. The high variation may be a symptom of sloppy cutting?
 
Thank you to everyone for all of your recommendations. The St. T jeweler is supposed to call me tomorrow with the "new" price. While looking at the other websites I couldn''t help but notice that ALL of them offer a 30 day full refund. It''s funny but, the St. T jeweler messed up on an e-mail to me a couple of days ago and had started a sentence and he didn''t delete it before he started a whole new paragraph over again. Well, the first sentence had said, Hi Linda, we have a strict refund policy and..........
and I don''t know what happened but he obviously decided on a different approach because the next paragraph was, Hi Linda, How are you and your husband doing? I want to do whatever I can to help you get this ring, I really want you to have this ring. I will call you tomorrow and we can finalize.

Oh brother.......................i''m getting a headache
 
We fly down a couple of times a year.
 
Of course he had a strict refund policy, as soon as you figured that you''d overpaid by 30K.
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Gives jewelers a bad rep, yaar.

Good luck with this.
 
Thanks Cut Rock. Ok, I see the issue with the girdle, that makes sense. Only after you pointed it out, the variation between extremely thin to thick does sound odd, how can that happen? Is it from side to side or, from the center out? (Probably all wrong terminology) However, I still don''t get the table thing. Why is a 60% table Highly unlikely to be appealing?
 
His bad rep has yet to get started if I don''t get my $$ back..............
 
Date: 5/5/2006 10:27:21 PM
Author: Chesapeake
I''ve been looking at stones on Blue Nile, David James, WhiteFlash and one more but I forgot the name. Most of them had smaller table percentages however, David James had stones very similar to my 2 carat for $35K - $37K that look pretty good. He actually had two with higher table percentages. How can you tell that the st. thomas stones have inferior cuts to the wholesaler''s stones?
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Linda,

In addition to what Julie has told you, stone #2 from St Thomas has the cut identified as "good". Cut goes from ideal or excellent, very good, to good. So that stone is not even in the next to best category. As Julie also said, I''d avoid an extremely thin girdle. You want thin, medium, or slightly thick.

Here are a couple more nice 2 ct. stones D-E, ideal cut ($33-37,000) from Dimend Scaasi:

http://www.dscaasi.com/diamonds/diamondDetail.asp?stockNum=124-289

http://www.dscaasi.com/diamonds/diamondDetail.asp?stockNum=124-289

I actually think your three ideal/excellent stones at $48,000 sounds like a good deal.
 
1 reason why i don't like large tables. it's like a mirror. and all it does is give off glare. if no direct light, therefore there is no glare, it doesn't really do anything (lifeless.)

anyway, with the proper angles, a 60 table could be good! (the numbers are on the GIA cert.) i just don't think it'll be very /interesting/
 
Hi,

I''m sorry you have this situation to deal with. But I would NOT finalize the deal. And if they won''t give you a refund I would put the 10K in dispute with your credit card company because you are not taking delivery.

Even if you don''t get your 10K back, it looks like you can get nicer stones for at least $25K less here. So would you rather over pay buy 25K or lose the 10K on the deposit?

I would be nevouse about the very thin girdle as well. Especially as side stone because if she bangs her hand, thats the stone that would more likely get banged, not the middle.

Thats going to be one amazing ring when you are done with all this. You have to post photos when you get it all set.
 
The jeweler never called me over the weekend, he e-mailed me and said he was very busy with customers. I e-mailed him back and told him that my decision was to request our $10K be refunded because I had to many reservations about the stones. I''m sure I''ll get something tomorrow. I would like to use some of these e-mails if the credit card company requests evidence of the opinions I''ve gotten. Is that something that would be considered "unethical" for this site and the agreement we all have honored? Does anybody have anything to say about this?
 
I think you could very easily go to some of the sites we''ve shown you and copy links to comparable diamonds and show that they were overcharging and that you believe they were dishonest. You should be able to cancel a transaction when you have not even taken possession of the ring, I would hope. (But I do not know the answer to your question. I am not sure the CC company would be terribly impressed with a diamond forum as your backing anyway.)
 
Terms and condition of the sale.


Just a few comments about buying in the Caribbean.

Read the back of the sales receipt. Most of the refund policies are very restrictive. I had another lady last week who signed the receipt, that had such restrictive conditions that anyone in their "right mind" wouldn''t have signed.

Fortunately, in this scenario too, I was able to exert some pressure with someone I know and it should be handled well, with a little mediation skill.

It could have been far worse if the seller would adhere to the terms of the sales slip.

Remember that buying out of the US, relinquishes many of the legal rights you have and any protection in dealing with any shortcomings, will be with the laws where you''ve bought the jewelry ( unless the seller has a US presence ).

In the US, deposits, when the merchandise hasn''t been accepted by the consumers usually results in a refund through most court jurisidictions.

However, should you decide that you wish to purchase the ring with someone else, and have problems getting your deposit refunded, perhaps I will be able to help with that without filing a dispute with your credit card company.

Just let me iknow at [email protected], if you need help.

Although this may sound self serving, for a purchase of this size and importance, it probably would be very prudent to have an expert assist you in making sure everything is "kosher" even for diamonds with grading reports, as they generally don''t provide ALL the facts about the stones.

Rockdoc
 
Also for AGS reports, there is an older one without light performance ratings, and a newer generation of reports that does take the light performance into consideration in the cut grading.

Last week AGS issued a software program, at its yearly conclave meeting in Orlando. This program allows those who have it to ESTIMATE the light return performance for diamonds with the old grading from AGS, and other diamonds.

While it is not their official grading report, it does offer the ability to compare the GIA cut grade system with AGS''s new cut grade system by using a very advanced ray tracing engine, that AGS''s research department has spent 7 years developing.

This program is BRAND NEW and the latest in cut grade analysis estimation. I am currently working with this program, learning about it, and will be able to supply cosumers with these reports using it. Distribution is limited of this software to AGS members, so the "average" appraiser or seller will not have this program or be able to provide the reports rendered by it.

There is a bit of controversy about just how accurate the GIA cut grading system is as compared to AGS''s system. GIA''s cut grade is based on proportions, while AGS''s is based on light return as well as proportions of the stone, and results from their ASET units, of which now there are three of them

Currently, we have two of the ASET viewers, the hand held and the desktop, and have ordered the new presentation model, which analyzes the stone in the face up position rather than the face down position currently used for the desktop model.

I''ve ordered the new presentation model and should arrive in about 7 days, at which time I''ll be posting some details and photos of the unit and hopefully some pictures of the ASET images from it as well.

Also on the horizon, will be the addition of being able to prodvide AGS grading estimations of the cut grade for emerald cuts, and square cut stones, such as asschers. Currently the program only works with round shapes and princess shapes.

Rockdoc
 
Chesapeake, where are you located?
 
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