Confused and helpless

[soccernut]

I bought a ritani setting through a local jeweler and plan to purchase the diamond through an on-line vendor. After an independent appraisal, I will have the diamond set by ritani who has a relationship with the local jeweler.

An internet dealer will give me the following diamond for a little over $7,100 if I wire $ now or $7,500 if I ship to an independent appraiser to evaluate pre-sale. The local jeweler says the deal is a smoking deal and too good to be true. The local jeweler says the best he could do is around $8,700 for a similar diamond. The local jeweler also raises a host of issues related to internet purchases, i.e., CE, drilling and GIA certificate fraud. The local jeweler also suggests that the potential exists for the diamond to crack during the setting and they will not assume liability for the setting because the diamond was not purchased through their store. 3 questions:

1. Is the following to good to be true?

GIA cert.
1.19
VS1
F
6.83, 6.87, 4.21
D= 61.5
T=57
Crown Angle= 35.2
Pavilion Angle = 41.2
G= tn to medium, faceted
Culet = none
Polish= ex
Symmetry = ex
Fluorescence= none

2. Can an independent appraiser detect CE and drilling?

3. Do I really have to be concerned about the diamond being cracked during the setting? I understand that cracking a diamond during the setting is like getting hit by lightning.

Thanks for your help.

 

[kiwifuz]

Yes an independent appraiser should be able to find any of the problems you listed.

My question is, why do you have to pay $400 more if you want it appraised?...

Anyway, it'd be easier to know if you're getting a good deal or not with a little more info. color? crown and pavilion numbers?

 

[soccernut]

Thanks. Typing posts at 1:00 a.m. will make you forget details.

Anyway, color is f, and crown angle is 35.2 and pavilion angle is 41.2.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
An internet dealer will give me the following diamond for a little over $7,100 if I wire $ now or
$7,500 if I ship to an independent appraiser to evaluate pre-sale.
-----------

This doesn't sound right to me. I don't understand the logic behind it.

From a consumer's point of view, having the diamond shipped to an appraiser removes all risk from the transaction. If the seller is bogus, and there's really no diamond, it won't get shipped. If the representation of the diamond is bogus, then the appraiser will spot it immediately. If there's a negative characteristic of the diamond which the seller is not disclosing, the appraiser will pick it up.

If you wire funds to a dealer, you have no way to get your money back if something's not right. He could say "Thank you very much", and never send you a diamond. Unlikely, but possible.

What's the rep of this vendor? How much do you know about him? Is it an EBay thing?

Ask him how he can give you peace-of-mind and security that you're going to get a stone, and that it is what it's represented? Ask him if he has some consumer references he can give you.

If he has nothing to hide, he shouldn't mind having an appraiser check it out prior to purchase. If it's really the smoking deal it's supposed to be, an appraiser would tell you to grab it! Ask him his reason for trying to discourage/penalize a pre-sale evaluation.

Without some kind of guarantees, or a neutral third party to protect you, you've got no recourse, and are totally open to be ripped off.

You didn't list the color, by the way.

 

[valeria101]

Details seem fine. It is not unusual that different methods of payment should lead to SMALL differences in price. Not sure wether this partiicular one is really so outrageous, but is not NIL either. The stone has good clarity (meaning zero potential for structural defects which could lead to 'cracking') and no glaring issues. If you buy a stone independently, it's integrity will usually not be guaranteed by the setter. However, it does not seem that this is a great risk. No idea what the local was talking about...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

This is an interesting stone, from a cut study point-of-view.

First, let me say that the pricing is very good and entirely possible. It doesn't sound like one of those "to good to be true" scenarios.

The cut parameters rank an AGS "0", which is considered ideal proportions by the AGS. The 35.2' crown angle though, along with the 41.2' pavilion angle (probable 43.7% pavilion depth), cause it to be ranked as an AGA "2A" on their system, which is a little more stringent than the AGS cut class system. 2A is considered a "fine make", as opposed to "ideal make".

That combination of a 35.2'/41.2' falls into "steep and deep" territory, where the crown angle is a little too steep and pavilion depth/angle a little too deep for optimal light return. It creates an area of light leakage just inside the table which is shown on the following simulated IdealScope image as a white ring.

Now to temper this negative description a little, I find the area of light leakage not to be as noticeable as you would think from viewing the simulated image. Most people have a hard time noticing it unless they view it next to a diamond which doesn't have that area. Additionally, a 35.2' crown angle will usually have a nice display of dispersed rainbow flashes (fire) coming off the bezel facet area of the crown.

I ran the parameters through the DiamCalc software, which came up with the following numbers on their Light Return Analysis. Bear in mind that the DC software is a harsh critic, which let's nothing escape it's eye:

Light Return Mono…….....Very Good to Good 0.94
Light Return Stereo……….Very Good 0.96
(Non) Leakage Mono……...Good to Poor 0.70 (I would use the word "fair", instead of "poor")
(Non) Leakage Stereo…….Good to Poor 0.67 (ditto)
Contrast………….......…....Very Good 0.98
(Non) Fisheye Effect……..Very Good 1.00

-----------
IdealScope- In general, the darker pink areas indicate areas of greater light return, with the lighter pink areas indicating areas of lesser light return. The black areas indicate areas of greater contrast, with the gray areas indicating areas of lesser contrast. The white areas indicate areas of light leakage. A good explanation of the IdealScope image along with examples can be found at https://www.pricescope.com/idealscope_indx.asp

Disclaimer- The facet arrangement and symmetry of the image will probably vary from your actual diamond, which may affect the light performance indicated, sometimes dramatically. The image shown has perfect symmetry, which is rare, and the star facet/lower girdle facet lengths may vary from your diamond. The computer simulation is reproduced best when the actual diamond is being viewed and the image "tweaked" to the appearance of the diamond, or when the Sarin data is downloaded directly into the program. However, this "blind" reproduction should be helpful in indicating the major light performance aspects.
-----------

So basically you've got a diamond here with awesome color, awesome clarity, "very good" technical cut ranking, and "good" overall light return performance.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
2. Can an independent appraiser detect CE and drilling?
-----------

Yes.

-----------
3. Do I really have to be concerned about the diamond being cracked during the setting? I understand that cracking a diamond during the setting is like getting hit by lightning.
-----------

The risk is almost nil in the hands of a professional setter.

 

[pqcollectibles]

You've gotten some really good advice about this particular diamond and some good referrals by Mara for comparison.

But, something sounded fishy to me in your initial post. The Vendor wants one price shipped direct and $500 more if you have the diamond shipped to an appraiser first.

Correct me if I am wrong, but.... Don't people pay the Appraiser for the Appraisal whether they accept the diamond or not. And pay the Vendor only if the diamond is verified and accepted???

That sounds odd to me. And $500 seems high. Prices I've seen on the Forum range around $125 or so for complete analysis.

 

[soccernut]

Thank you all for your advice. I know that I was getting the "hard sell" from the local jeweler but, I was also annoyed with the online jeweler (who has received very positive feedback in this forum and has no complaints with the BBB) for the price difference if I were to send the stone to an independent appraiser prior to wiring the funds. I have found the process of purchasing a diamond full of pitfalls with both the locals and the onlines. There has to be an easier way to purchase a diamond because I still have not found a comfort/trust level with either a local jeweler or online dealer. Oh well, this is probably an occupational hazard of my job.

Mara, the first stone that you listed is very intriguing. However, I noticed that it has medium blue fluorescence. What are your thoughts (as well as others) on fluorescence? Ideally, I would like a diamond with no fluorescence but, I am not sure how dramatically fluorescence affects or does not affect a diamond. In a similar vein, I am not really sure what are the truly important characteristics other than cut in a diamond (even after 40 hours of research). I just hear so many different things . . .

 

[Mara]

Med Fluor shouldn't be a problem in this stone....from what I have read only strong fluor has the potential to cause milkiness and even then only in something like 2% of fluor strong fluor stones. Some people like fluor, it gives the diamond a different hue in certain lights...different effects.




That first stone also has a very nice IdealScope image! Interesting AGS report, it looks different than the typical ones I have seen.




Don't be pressured into buying a stone, any stone, regardless of good feedback on the vendor, etc. Don't pay MORE to get your diamond appraised either...at least not to the vendor! You should pay for the appraisal, independently, with your vendor just acting on your wishes to ship the stone. I haven't heard about paying more just to send it for appraisal..odd.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got is that the vendor would sell the diamond for $7100 if Soccer bought it immediately, or $7500 if Soccer wanted to have it appraised (on his own).

It didn't seem to me that the appraisal was included in that $7500 figure, just that the vendor was trying to pressure Soccer to buy the stone immediately rather than having it pre-screened.

If that's not the case, then some of my comments were off-base.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 11/8/2003 8:59:34 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got is that the vendor would sell the diamond for $7100 if Soccer bought it immediately, or $7500 if Soccer wanted to have it appraised (on his own).

It didn't seem to me that the appraisal was included in that $7500 figure, just that the vendor was trying to pressure Soccer to buy the stone immediately rather than having it pre-screened.

If that's not the case, then some of my comments were off-base.



----------------

Well, I re-reread (meaning I read it twice the 1st time because it sounded sooooo odd) the original post and you know, Rich, I think YOU are right!

The Vendor will sell for $7K without an appraisal first and $7.5K if Soccer insists on an appraisal to be paid for seperately. If that's the case, that's a big load of DUNG!

Does the Vendor think this person's name is SUCKER???

Soccer, I hear you about some online Vendor's. When I was looking to buy, I posted a Vendor's diamond as a possible for comments from the Forum. The Vendor privately emailed me asking if I wanted the diamond "held" for me. That just struck me like a used car salesman in a plaid coat on a hot day in July!

Needless to say, I did not buy from that particular Vendor.

I did get over my own "Net Purchase" phobia and bought my diamond online from White Flash. The folks there were great to deal with. They have great return/refund/life-time upgrade policies.

Don't let one less than stellar experience with one Vendor taint you from considering others. Everybody has a bad day now and then.

Jonathan and the folks at GOG recently bent over backwards with a Forum participant. 1st he wanted one diamond, then realized it was too expensive, so he switched to another diamond. The 2nd diamond was on it's way to being appraised and set when the buyer got an unexpected bonus and could now afford the 1st diamond. GOG made the switch for him.

Nice Ice had a Forum member specifically request a diamond "off the list". When Robin and Todd got a look at the diamond, they wouldn't sell it because it didn't meet their standards.

Dirt Cheap Diamonds just went thru a setting issue with a buyer. The owner of DCD came on the board, admitted the problem was theirs, and made arrangements to correct the situation.

Check with the Vendors that do more than "Drop Ship" diamonds. Call or email a few with your criteria. The hands on folk will give you Sarin, OGI, Brilliance Scope, etc, reports in advance to make an informed buying decision.

And as to refunds if you don't care for the diamond. Speaking from my experience with White Flash,.... I previewed 2 diamonds, chose 1, and White Flash promptly refunded the purchase price of the 2nd diamond. I have seen similar reports of prompt refunds when the customer didn't like a diamond they purchased from other PS Vendors.

Med Flour should give you marvelous flashes of sparkly blue hues that are just gorgeous!

I know you are feeling stressed and torn right now. Relax. Take a breath and a break. Diamond shopping is supposed to be fun! Try to enjoy the experience!

 

[fire&ice]

I'm a little confused about the price difference. Could you please elaborate? Is the price difference b/c of credit card charges vs wiring the money? Before everyone jumps on the vendor, I would like some clarity. Also, many people prefer to save the money & go w/ someone who drops ships. I'm not one of them; but, they provide a certain price point others can not meet.

 

[soccernut]

Credit cards were not involved so there was no difference in the price because of finance charges. The price was X if I wired the funds and the price was Y (X + 400) if I had the diamond evaluated by an independent appraiser pre-sale. The explanation I received from the vendor was that they would only "price-match" if the purchase was made and would not "price-match" if the diamond was evaluated pre-sale. Unless I am missing something, this justification makes no sense. The vendor does not have any real reason to change the price because I could always return the diamond in the purchase scenario. I think it was just a sales tactic to try and close the deal.

 

[canadiangrrl]

I get it.

Vendor A is selling the stone for $7100. Vendor B is selling the stone for $7500. You've elected to go with Vendor B, who will match Vendor A's lower price. But Vendor B isn't going to match the price if you have it shipped to an appraiser before you pay him.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[soccernut]

Bingo. And actually, Vendor B would knock a little more off the matched price of Vendor A.

 

[canadiangrrl]

Then it's a slightly different scenario than the one you first described.

Vendor B is matching the price of Vendor A. His price isn't the same as Vendor A's, it's obviously higher, and he's offering to match (or apparently beat) the price of the other vendor.

The impression that I received from your initial posts suggested that the vendor had two price points for the same stone - a lower price if you purchased right away, and a higher price if you wanted a pre-sale appraisal done. He doesn't - he has one set price point, whether there's a pre-sale appraisal done or not, but he's willing to beat another vendor's price if you order and pay for the stone right away.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 11/9/2003 2:46:04 PM canadiangrrl wrote:

Then it's a slightly different scenario than the one you first described.

He doesn't - he has one set price point, whether there's a pre-sale appraisal done or not, but he's willing to beat another vendor's price if you order and pay for the stone right away.



----------------

Makes business sense to me.

 

[soccernut]

Thank you all for your posts. I have learned much and the posts have somewhat alleviated the symptoms of online vendor "phobia" that I currently suffer.

However, I respectfully disagree with the last two posts. Regardless of the "price-match," it is still two different price points depending on when you pay. IMHO it is also bad business because the sales tactic undermines consumer trust. Why not return to Vendor A who has the better price and will allow pre-sale evaluation before purchase? The "knock-off" amount that I referenced in my earlier post ($30) that Vendor B was giving does not make that much of a difference on a $7k purchase.

What I am really concerned about in an online vendor is trust and their sales tactic undermined my trust in them. I also inquired and attempted to negotiate an extension of the return time b/c Vendor B's return time was pretty short. Vendor B said no extension. My request for an extension of time was well under the 30 day gold standard of blue nile. Their refusal to grant an extension of the return period also undermined my trust in them.

Hopefully, I will find an online vendor that I trust because the prices truly beat the b&m jewelers that I have encountered.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 11/9/2003 7:42:18 PM soccernut wrote:


What I am really concerned about in an online vendor is trust and their sales tactic undermined my trust in them. I also inquired and attempted to negotiate an extension of the return time b/c Vendor B's return time was pretty short. Vendor B said no extension. My request for an extension of time was well under the 30 day gold standard of blue nile. Their refusal to grant an extension of the return period also undermined my trust in them.

Hopefully, I will find an online vendor that I trust because the prices truly beat the b&m jewelers that I have encountered.----------------

Well then ,isn't your choice obvious to you. That vendor is not for you. Sorry, I wouldn't ammend my policies for one person. They are in business to make money. They are not in business to please each & every consumer. Clearly, this has *nothing* to do with trust or undermining thereof.

 

[canadiangrrl]

"Why not return to Vendor A who has the better price and will allow pre-sale evaluation before purchase?"

Do you know for a fact that Vendor A is willing to sell you the stone at $7100 and allow you to have it appraised before you pay?

The vendor will price match another vendor, plus kick in an extra $30 off, if you order the stone from him. Terrific. But that's the "out-the-door" deal he's offering. Less time and involvement from him. You have a window in which to get the diamond appraised, so if it's not to your liking, return it.

As for the return policy, online vendors seem to set them at either 7, 10, or 30 days. That's an ample time frame in which to get the diamond appraised. The return policy doesn't kick in until you or your appraiser of choice accept delivery of the diamond.

I don't see the situation in the same way you do, Soccernut. The vendor is running a business and has certain guidelines he needs to follow in order for it to succeed. If his guidelines don't dovetail with your requirements, look elsewhere. It's unreasonable to expect a vendor with whom you have zero prior history to bend the rules for you. Try getting Zales, or for that matter, any major retailer, to extend their return policy - I can almost guarantee that it ain't gonna happen, especially on high-cost items.

 

[pqcollectibles]

Soccer,

The 7 and 10 day Returns are really enough time. In my case, White Flash wanted a decision from me and expected me to return ship to them within the 10 day time frame.

I called and made arrangements in advance with a local appraiser to verify the 2 diamonds I previewed from White Flash. Then I contacted WF, made payment, and WF overnighted the diamonds to me. I took them to the appraiser the next day after receipt for verification. Since I had such a tough decision to make on which one to keep, I didn't contact WF for 5 or 6 days after receipt about which one I was going to keep. If you have any diamond shipped directly to an appraiser, you will know within a couple days whether or not you plan to go thru with the purchase.

WF (as does most Vendors) has buyers return ship via USPS Insured/Registered Mail. USPS Registered Mail does not move like regular mail. It travels "armored car", ground, with no rhyme or reason to the routes. Even though I physically shipped within the 10 day Return period, it took my package over a week to get back to WF. In my particular case, one diamond was not available for WF to sell to another buyer for about 2 and half weeks. Diamonds are rather expensive inventory items to not have available when an interested buyer comes along. Sooooo hopefully that explains some of the reasoning from the Vendor's point of view.

I agree with F&I. If you are not comfortable with this particular Vendor now, then don't buy from them. The diamond inventories are constantly changing. Find a Vendor you are comfortable working with and let them help you find your perfect diamond.

 

[Rank Amateur]

You seem neither confused nor helpless. You know exactly what the situation is and, as the consumer, you hold all the cards.

If you want to hold the vendor's feet to the fire about his price-match policy, then he has the right to expect you to buy from him. You can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not most of the time.

Buy from the vendor with whom you are comfortable rather than buying on price alone. I actually pay more for things ON PURPOSE just to show my support for a particular vendor and the way they do business. You won't find me in WalMart.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 11/9/2003 9:32:49 PM canadiangrrl wrote:

If his guidelines don't dovetail with your requirements, look elsewhere. ------------

Dovetail - I love it. It is now in my repetoire (at least I know how to spell dovetail)

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 11/9/2003 11:57:57 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

You can't have your cake and eat it too.----------------

Hah! You are more to the point than I. I wrote that then erased it. So, now I say dittos

 

[phoenixgirl]

With the exception of one low-ball price from a newer addition to PriceScope, your diamond is going for between $7411 and $7716 on PriceScope. PriceScope is a competitive market. Vendors can see what other vendors are willing to sell the exact same stone for, and will meet or best it if they can. If you can get it for $7100, go for it. If there is a return policy within which it is humanly possible for you to get it appraised and make a decision, then you have saved $500 off an already very competitive price.

You are expecting too much in this situation. BlueNile has a better return policy, but more mark-up. Your local B&M has more convenient service, but much more mark-up. No one is going to mark your diamond down below cost, send it for an appraisal for free, and then let you wear it for a month before returning it. I probably wouldn't budge on a return policy if the person who wanted it seemed suspicious of me and had unrealistic expectations -- that's the most likely person to return it, and there went all that time and shipping wasted. If I were you, and paying $7500 for a stone like that (still a great deal) is out of the question, I would just go with BlueNile or the local store and get a smaller stone.

 

[aljdewey]

The reality is this: service costs. If you want bare bones, you may save a few pennies. If you want premium service (pre-purchase appraisal, long return policy), you need to be willing to pay for that service in the form of higher prices for the goods.




I applaud what you want......you want all the perks of flying first-class while paying for the economy, steerage price. Everyone on the planet wants that, but there's a reason no one gets it.




It costs money to ship it back and forth to appraisers and take that stone out of their available inventory to everyone else who may be looking. It costs money to make a stone available to you for 10-15-30 days (thereby taking it off the market) and holding that inventory cost while you make up your mind that you'd like to keep it.




If you make an appointment with an appraiser prior to purchase, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to meet a reasonable return window....even 7 days.




The vendor is willing to get serious and match the price IF you are willing to get serious and commit to purchase. If you require more hand-holding during the sale, the $400 difference is justified.