Concerns about halo rings and melee safety...experts?

[Mara]

We've all seen the recent halo trends engulf PS with Ritani and other original designers and also all the custom designers...

It also seems like recently there have been more than a few instances where melee falls out in the cleaner or is lost etc. Just in the last few weeks icekid lost a melee, Alj lost a melee in her pendant, ally lost a melee, now today I see dazed's melee fell out too. There may be a few more I am missing, but one thing that sticks out is that all of these are halo rings...with lots of small melee diamonds held in seemingly precariously with small prongs. We have seen lots of pave rings on here over the last few years but not the level of this type of lost melee that I can recall. And people who have had their rings for just a few weeks even.

Curious because this also does not seem limited to one vendor, aka it's more than one that has has the lost melee syndrome.

This brings up a Q for me...how safe really are those melee in these halo rings? Is it really a matter of better QC and setting controls or is it just the nature of the beast with these particular rings? So many small stones and relatively little metal leads to disaster?

Curious as to what the experts and vendors think on this one, appraisers too. We've seen appraisers say 'well the setting may be faulty'..and I really wonder if that's the case or if it's just that this certain style lends itself to more non-daily use than engagement ring wear-and-tear?

Part of this thread for me also is education for others. So many people are into these halo rings, which are stunning and beautiful. BUT they should be aware of the possible perils as well. aka lost melee and not being able to clean them in an ultrasonic (if that's truly the case) etc. I'd rather be aware of something while researching it than find out later and wish I'd possibly made a different choice. Part of why we chose to go with 4 prongs on my melee in my settings is because I know I am harder on things and I did not want to worry about the delicateness of a small ring with pave. At the time and even a year or so after I thought well maybe that was overkill but now I am really happy I don't have to worry about those little stones. It's also good to speak up front about what your vendor will cover. aka will they always replace lost melee stones for life? What do they pay for? Shipping and lost stones or just shipping? Or is there a warranty policy in place for a period of time only? Because even if they do pay for shipping and lost stones, what if you are losing 2-3 stones a year? It would get tiring after a while to be shipping those rings off to the vendor and hassling with all that to have that super thin band or that super small melee in the halo etc.

Anyway I don't mean to ramble, but I'd love to see some experts (and consumers) chime in on this one with their thoughts. I'm also curious to know if any of the original Ritani ring owners have lost any of their melee in these halos or if it's more of a custom thing that seems to be the trend?

 

[aljdewey]

Interesting....because it is happening a lot, and not limited to any vendor.

Tacori e-ring''s ring is from Tacori, my pendant was WF; Ally''s ring was a LM......I really think it''s part of the trade-off for having that look.

 

[LadyluvsLuxury]

Very interesting questions, I would LOVE to see some responses to this from the vendors, appraisers, designers etc.

 

[sjz]

Good question, Mara. I''ll be interested in the answer to this, too. Whenever I''ve considered anything other than a solitaire, whether in a ring or a pendant, I''ve usually gone with channel set stones for accent, because the prong thing made me nervous with tiny little stones. I never felt secure. That''s one of the reasons I''ve not considered the halo settings in the past. But lately, with all of the pretty halo jewelry I''ve seen, I''ve been toying with ideas...

One ring that I have, that I don''t wear often, has invisible set rounds. There are prongs on the outer diamonds, but the stones in the center of the clusters are somehow "overlapped". I am nervous everytime I wear that sucker that the stones will come loose and fall out. Maybe some of the experts could weigh in on that type of setting, since it looks so similar to pave.

 

[Kaleigh]

That''s a great question Mara. I haven''t had my new ring for a week yet and am a little worried about it too.

 

[IrishEyes]

Yes you bring up interesting questions, Mara. I really feel that because the stones are so small and are set with such little metal around them, they are just prone to slipping out. One really good jostle sends them out from under the little bead prongs. I see it all the time at work. And I think you brought up a good point in reminding owners of rings with melee and pave that they may not necessarily be able to have their rings cleaned in an ultrasonic or steam cleaner, especially if the stones are loose and can''t be tightened on-the-spot. I too would like to hear an appraiser''s opinion.

Interesting as well: where exactly did the term "halo setting" come from?? I knew it from here on PS, but when I started working in the jewelry business a few months ago, I was shocked to hear that many of my co-workers and even my boss hadn''t heard of that term before. We carry Ritani and Tacori and a few other well-known lines, and yet when I mentioned one day that I had a woman in with a halo setting, they looked at me strangely and asked what I meant. I explained it and they were pretty much like "oh. whatever". So that makes me curious as well. How "technical" is that term, and how widespread is its use???

 

[valeria101]

IMO, that''s the ''nature of the beast''. Pave is nothing new, but I beleive it is a recent thing to see allot of it on jewelry items that get allot of wear. There are a few very different ways to make pave, but I doubt anyone has wrecked a few fine rings to actualy determine how much wear they can hold. Some ways of doing pave must be entirely new to science - so saying that, you know, there are century old pave rings that held on beautifully may not be a strong argument after all. Those were probably made in a different manner and there is no way to know how much effective wear they''be been through.

Cleaning these rings every day and using anything but manual cleaning (ultrasonic!!

) sounds like asking for trouble.

I am not surprised that jewelry shops do not big frontpage warnings about how one should wear & care for pave because that would make the type of jewelry feel unsafe - pretty darn obvious.



To your call about pave wear, Mara, I would add another:

Remember those shared-prongs eternity rings that got chiped by rubbing against others? There isn''t much warning about not wearing rings that allow diamonds to rub against each other - and paved sets sometimes qualify for that warning. I''ve heard it a few times around here, but nowhere else online. One would think that the makers took care of this and it is not fair, IMO, to judge this sort of thing on pictures because it is hard to tell if and where two stacked rings touch each other. However, there seems to be some demand to get rings covered with diamonds all over or eternity bands that ''show no metal'' on a 30x picture and that is asking for trouble too. Perhaps the maker of such designs would warn the client, but then, the all that a less concerned competitor across the street has to say is that ''it works''.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/2/2005 2:01:31 PM
Author: IrishEyes

Interesting as well: where exactly did the term 'halo setting' come from??

Pricescope

... maybe not. Try Google - you will find a few thousand refferences, and it is always about a narrow frame of many diamonds set one way or another.

How else would you call them?

 

[Maxine]

Good post, Mara....Actually, I was tihinking about a similar post, myself.

This is a really good question, since so many people are now getting these types of rings for their "everyday," all the time wear e-ring as well as for RHR''s that might be worn for more special ocassions.

But this is not a new style.....has this always been a concern, or is the setting technique/quality control different now than in the past?

I hope some pros. (setters and appraisers) will chime in here.......

 

[Kaleigh]

I also think it''s how well made they are. My grandmother''s ring has 68 diamonds in the mele and it was my great grandmothers ring. Have never lost a stone out if it thank god, but I only wear it for special occassions and baby it. This ring is 140 years old I think. Grandmother is 94, so.....

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/2/2005 2:14:55 PM
Author: Maxine


But this is not a new style.....has this always been a concern, or is the setting technique/quality control different now than in the past?

Depends on what you mean by 'past' - a few months or a couple of years ago... maybe not.

There is so much more diamond set jewelry done than when those superb Edwardian rings were made that it is not worth asking! Everything has changed... but then, the wave of pave pieces try to go along the same lines as the antique designs that have become their natural inspiration after all. The modern designs and the modern way of using them (i.e. 24/7 or nearly for those enaggement rings and wedding bands) got their own problems.

If there is any source tracking down the kinds of pave work, believe me, I want to take a look.

I am not an expert - my jeweler is

I surely wish to hear expert advice on this thread !

 

[AndyRosse]

Hmmm, great question Mara! I would love to hear answers from the experts.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Great question. Time to bookmark this thread.

It's not an easy task to set melee. There are 3 primary reasons a diamond may fall out.

1. Residue. Many times when drilling holes, filing, etc. there can be tiny residue left; metal filings, polishing rouge, etc. When a tiny diamond is set this microscopic residue could be taking up space between the diamonds and the setting. Over time as the ring is worn that residue may loosen up. Sometimes if the ring is put in an ultrasonic cleaner (which many people don’t recommend for melee) the residue is lost. This frees up the extra space and the diamond might move or fall out.

2. Wear and tear is a part of life. Some people are heavier on their rings than others. As a ring gets knocked or bumped metal holding diamonds in place may be worn away or become loose which causes the diamond to fall out. How do you know if you are over-heavy on your rings? You generally don’t because it’s just part of your life! If your rings are scuffed or you find them dented you may be a candidate for ‘knockabout’ counseling.

Depending on how rough you are with your jewelry it may be preferable for you to have White Gold rather than Platinum (platinum is more malleable).

3. The diamond wasn’t set properly.

Each case must be considered separately. It may be the responsibility of the manufacturer - or the wearer. There are telltale signs when it's the wearer's responsibility, as there are normally marks showing wear and tear. If there is minimal wear and tear then something didn't allow the stone to sit correctly, or it was not set soundly. The majority of times these issues are wear and tear related. So, one must understand that this becomes, to a large degree, how much the company that made the ring is willing to back it up.

For our part if something happens due to residue or improper setting we restore it. Further, if something happens and we feel it was the responsibility of the wearer we often choose to warrant it anyway, while informing the wearer of their heavy use (in our professional opinion).

The described situations happen with delicate crafting no matter who the manufacturer is. These kinds of delicate rings are becoming more popular, so we are seeing more occurrences of this on PS. As Val said, it is the nature of the beast. Some manufacturers take steps to investigate what is viable in a new design: You may be interested to know that we have a policy, when new rings are introduced, to create a prototype and send it into the field for ‘wear and tear’ testing before making it available to the public. We use a person who is active with their hands and gauge the results in order to modify the design as necessary. Of course, even if all goes perfectly in the trial period it is no guarantee for every person who will ever wear the design, but it provides a working baseline – just as manufacturers of software issue beta versions to do as much as possible to head off errors before a public release.

Regardless of precautions, these things will happen. It's up to wearers to understand that the possibilities exist, especially with delicate work. They can take comfort in knowing that reputable manufacturers understand the need to stand behind their products and their clients.

 

[AndyRosse]

Wow, thanks John!!

And if you are ever in need of a person to wear a ring prototype for wear and tear testing, I would be more than willing to help!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/2/2005 3:48:51 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

You may be interested to know that we have a policy, when new rings are introduced, to create a prototype and send it into the field for ‘wear and tear’ testing before making it available to the public. We use a person who is active with their hands and gauge the results in order to modify the design as necessary.

Aha! So... how much did you say the rent was !?

Kidding...

 

[RockDoc]

OK I"ll take a stab at this, as I look at jewelry all the time.

I think all the opinions expressed as to why have some bearing.

I believe the major consideration is the quality of workmanship however.

Currently I have a ring that has been worn for 17 years, by the client, and the stones are set very very well, and as such not one stone has fallen out of the pave plate.

As far as cleaning in an ultrasonic, I am sort of supportive of cleaning it that way. As if a stone does loosen up, it is better to fall in the ultrasonic and be retrived than on the street.

Unfortunately, a lot of these types of rings do not get cleaned as often as they should be, and some of the stones are held in by soap (soap is essentially grease/oil and diamonds have an affinity to attach themselves to that), and when the soapscum is cleaned off then the diamonds could be loose.

Some of the issue for lost mellee is also the responsibility of the owner to care for items that are delicately made. Pave pieces to require special care when wearing them. Obviously, they should not be worn when swimming ( caustic chemical exposure), playing sports, working around the garden, repairing the car etc.

So you wanted a professional opinion, so there it is.

Rockdoc

 

[tawn]

Another volunteer for "testing" out new rings!!

Seriously, and I''m about as klutzy as they come! You guys have my number!

I have the diamond halo with a bezel on my ring, but chose to have a polished shank on my new ring because I lost a melee stone out of my 1/2 eternity band last year and didn''t think I should have diamonds on the shank of a ring that I plan on wearing for the next 50 years!

WF made my ring, and I wanted little tiny diamonds to just look like a little ring of fire around my ring...and they look to be really securely set in there! I guess time will tell, but it looks like a much more professional setting job than on my eternity style ring!

 

[Mara]

Thanks for the info John and RD...

As others have noted, what is also of particular interest to me is that neither pave nor the ''halo'' settings are a new phenomenon. I saw a Cartier ring from 1905 at a jeweler''s a few years ago, stunning pave filigree work of art holding a 3c stone. I thought WOW here is a ring that has been around for ~98 years and it still looks amazing.

As Val said maybe in the past there were other methods of setting or crafting that were different than today, that begs the question, were the old methods better for certain styles or rings?

Or was it maybe more along the lines of people in the past who could afford to buy and wear $10k/20k/30k/40k etc diamond rings did not wear them on a daily basis? Is it also that back in the early 1900''s, the lady of the house may not have also been washing the dishes, changing the diapers, and doing laundry or gardening with their $10k (at the time) pave diamond ring?

Val''s point about the shared prong damage as well is another similar event that we have seen a few of on here, though not seemingly as prevalent as this lost melee topic. But I agree, anything like this..whether it be a Daniel B style encrused halo or a Ritani or even a SP shared prong set etc...I am a huge believer in making the consumer aware of what pitfalls may be around the corner when coveting and purchasing a setting of that style. I am so happy that our jeweler really sat down with us and went over the various reasons why he didn''t support the Michael B style of pave at the time. I don''t think it would have been MY cup of tea. Mind you I adore those sparkly thin rings covered with stones but as rough as I can be on my jewelry, I have counted my 4 prong melee blessings many a time. And while my rings may have a bit more metal than most, at least I don''t have a second thought of worry on wearing them daily or cleaning them in the ultrasonic or gardening with them on. (Not that I still don''t secretly covet a thin pave band..hee hee..maybe in another life!)

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I wish our jeweler had spoken with us on the risks of melee but he didn''t. Like I have mentioned in a previous thread he will replace the stones for free so I can''t be too angry. I do LOVE the look of my setting but I am sad I can no longer put it in my beloved ultrasonic cleaner. My mother has her grandmother''s diamond ring that has melees and I believe none have been replaced. So maybe it is workmanship. I would like to believe for the price we paid for my Tacori it is good quality. Who knows.

 

[widget]

I''ve heard that the metal of "hand forged" or "die struck" pieces is denser. Does denser mean stronger?

I think (am not positively sure) that antique jewelry was more often made using these methods. Maybe this accounts for why they seem to hold together better modern ones...

Just a thought...

widget

 

[Mara]

Any other vendors or appraisers or Garry care to chime in on this? More info please!

Nature of the beast or QC lacking? Or something other than that? Widget''s point re: hand made in the old days has some validity IMO...but what do the people who have seen stones and rings day in and day out for many years think?

 

[rockaholic]

thank you Mara for starting this thread, and big thanks to all the experts that put in their two cents on the issue. i am considering a pave setting for my cushion, so found the information very useful.

out of curiousity, do stores usually offer some kind of warranty even on designer rings? for those of you that have unfortunately been through this problem, did you bring the setting back to the original jeweler to have it fixed? if so, do they charge a reasonable amount to have it fixed? i''ve looked at many settings and know how much the finished piece costs, but wasn''t sure what it usually costs to repair a single small diamond in a setting.

oh, and one last question: so no ultrasonic cleaner for pave?

thanks again,

~rockaholic~

 

[Mara]

"so no ultrasonic cleaner for pave?"

_______________________

This seems to be one of the magic questions! Some experts say well if the stones are set properly then it should be fine. Others say not to use it as why risk it and as RD noted, if melee is held in by soap or dirt then the US may knock it out along with the melee. Though to be honest I''d rather have the melee be clean and fall out in the US and be floating than lost in some street somewhere. Others say they have no problem with using it, but do not necessarily RECOMMEND it.

With all those answers, it''s hard to figure out what to do really. I would almost venture to say that if you get your prongs and melee checked fairly often then why not use the US? But I can imagine that some would be leery.

 

[rockaholic]

thanks for the response mara. i agree with you, i would rather lose the stone (if it''s really set that poorly) in the US than on the street. plus, with the pave, regular cleaning is so important to keep the ring looking new. i love the antique look, that''s why i''m considering a pave.

~rockaholic~

 

[sjz]

Date: 10/3/2005 12:14:02 AM
Author: widget
I''ve heard that the metal of ''hand forged'' or ''die struck'' pieces is denser. Does denser mean stronger?

I think (am not positively sure) that antique jewelry was more often made using these methods. Maybe this accounts for why they seem to hold together better modern ones...

Just a thought...

widget

As far as the older pave style jewelry goes, my theory is that most of it wasn''t worn on an everyday basis. And if it was, it was probably worn by a well-to-do woman who wasn''t doing a lot with her hands other than some needle work or holding a book.

My grandmother had some lovely jewelry, most of it had lots of stones and was very fancy. But it also sat most of the time in her jewelry boxes. As a farmer''s wife, she was cooking, cleaning, plucking chickens, and milking cows all day, and it didn''t do for her to wear her good jewelry doing that sort of work. She mostly wore a plain gold band for everyday. I don''t even know if she had an "e-ring" as such. Just lots of pretty rings with diamonds and other colored stones. But on Sundays when she went to church, or when Grandpa took her out on the town for dinner or shopping...BOY was she blinged out!

Today, it''s very trendy to wear jewelry with lots of pave or eternity style wedding bands and the like for everyday wear. And the trend is not just for the well-to-do and upper crust ladies anymore. I can see how a ring from years gone by that only came out and got worn on special occasions might hold up, where a diamond encrusted pave ring in 2005 might take a little more abuse when it''s worn around shopping carts, in the gym, while doing house work, and is basically never taken off except to be cleaned.

 

[Lynn B]

Great thread, Mara. Thanks. Couple of good issues raised...

1. My beautiful semi-eternity rings are custom-made shared-prong and when I ordered them, the vendor did NOT tell me that there may be issues with durability (diamonds rubbing together between the rings). I was a newbie then, and honestly, the thoughts of that never crossed my mind. I would probably not have done anything any different, since I love the look, but I think I should have been made aware. Thankfully, I haven''t had any problems with my rings - but others with the same style have. So it is a "risk", although the look of the shared prong (which (IMHO) is a look all its own and not achievable by any other setting method) makes it worth it to me. But I believe that vendors do have a measure of responsibility to inform customers of potential risks with certain styles.

2. Pave/melee in ultrasonics... good question and one that seems to have no easy, cut-and-dry answer. Also, contradictions among vendors exists, and this is very confusing for the consumer! As mentioned above, I have shared-prong, and one expert told me there should be "no problem at all" with using the US as "often as I want to"... yet the vendor told me (only when I specifically asked, though) that "occasional use only" is recommended. That''s another time that I think the vendor should tell the customer at the time of ordering if there are any limitations or recommendations regarding cleaning the rings. US cleaners ARE popular - and lots of customers have them, and want to use them. If they have chosen a style of jewelry in which that is contraindicated, then they should know before - not after - they buy the piece.

Just my humble 2 cents!

Lynn

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 10/3/2005 12:21:06 PM
Author: suziQ

Date: 10/3/2005 12:14:02 AM

As far as the older pave style jewelry goes, my theory is that most of it wasn''t worn on an everyday basis. And if it was, it was probably worn by a well-to-do woman who wasn''t doing a lot with her hands other than some needle work or holding a book.

My grandmother had some lovely jewelry, most of it had lots of stones and was very fancy. But it also sat most of the time in her jewelry boxes. As a farmer''s wife, she was cooking, cleaning, plucking chickens, and milking cows all day, and it didn''t do for her to wear her good jewelry doing that sort of work. She mostly wore a plain gold band for everyday. I don''t even know if she had an ''e-ring'' as such. Just lots of pretty rings with diamonds and other colored stones. But on Sundays when she went to church, or when Grandpa took her out on the town for dinner or shopping...BOY was she blinged out!


Today, it''s very trendy to wear jewelry with lots of pave or eternity style wedding bands and the like for everyday wear. And the trend is not just for the well-to-do and upper crust ladies anymore. I can see how a ring from years gone by that only came out and got worn on special occasions might hold up, where a diamond encrusted pave ring in 2005 might take a little more abuse when it''s worn around shopping carts, in the gym, while doing house work, and is basically never taken off except to be cleaned.

I really don''t think this is the case. As I said previously my mother wears her gandmother''s ring (at LEAST 110 years old) and she has never lost a melee AND her engraving is still mostly in tact. She wears her ring everyday and certainly doesn''t baby her rings at all. She wears them all the time and has worn this one for 33 years.

 

[Odilia]

{{{As far as the older pave style jewelry goes, my theory is that most of it wasn''t worn on an everyday basis. And if it was, it was probably worn by a well-to-do woman who wasn''t doing a lot with her hands other than some needle work or holding a book....}}}

{{{...I really don''t think this is the case. As I said previously my mother wears her gandmother''s ring (at LEAST 110 years old) and she has never lost a melee AND her engraving is still mostly in tact. She wears her ring everyday and certainly doesn''t baby her rings at all. She wears them all the time and has worn this one for 33 years. }}}}

Just my opinion, but I agree with Tacori E-ring. I think the quality of workmanship was better back then.

 

[sjz]

Date: 10/3/2005 2:54:22 PM
Author: Odilia
{{{As far as the older pave style jewelry goes, my theory is that most of it wasn''t worn on an everyday basis. And if it was, it was probably worn by a well-to-do woman who wasn''t doing a lot with her hands other than some needle work or holding a book....}}}

{{{...I really don''t think this is the case. As I said previously my mother wears her gandmother''s ring (at LEAST 110 years old) and she has never lost a melee AND her engraving is still mostly in tact. She wears her ring everyday and certainly doesn''t baby her rings at all. She wears them all the time and has worn this one for 33 years. }}}}

Just my opinion, but I agree with Tacori E-ring. I think the quality of workmanship was better back then.

That''s certainly possible. Everything seems to have been made better back in the good old days. But from what I''ve read on PS lately, it seems to be happening quite often. I would hope that the quality of "modern" workmanship will soon be as good as the old times, because this style of ring seems to be gaining in popularity by leaps and bounds! Most of the PS vendors are carrying halo style jewelry and rings with lots of pave. I''m thinking that it''s probably a combination of factors, not just the quality of the workmanship that causes the diamonds to fall out. Still, I don''t think it''s a question of how well something is made, there are times when any type of jewelry is vulnerable to damage, no matter how well it''s made.

 

[Mara]

I think it's important to note that there are the countless positive experiences or times when nothing has gone wrong and there are rave reviews all around for vendor and consumer.

However in this thread I wanted to call attention to the times where there may be a problem, because it seems like it has been more prevalent lately. Maybe that is NOT the case when a % is compared of work done with problems to work done positively, but it also made me think about the whole ramifications of items falling out or problems AND also as some other posters have pointed out, the education of the consumer BY THE VENDOR. I think that the vendors should be aware of possible pitfalls and help educate the consumer. If not, they will get that education on PS.

aka just like some vendors may not want to do super thin pave rings...maybe they also need to give that 'warning' on things like micro-pave halos. Of course nothing is perfect and even the BEST setter or custom designer ever could still have one or two glitches...but I think at least getting this all out in the open makes sense. I am sure I am not the only one who saw thread after thread recently on lost melee and wondered 'what is going on??'...

Seriously, I do wonder about quality of worksmanship in the old days to today. Some may say nothing has changed. It may be that some wear their pieces more than others or do more rough work than previously. It's hard to know. That is also why I am very curious to what other appraisers and experts think who HAVE seen this before and also who have been in the business for many years. aka Garry, denverappraiser, Rich etc??