Concerned by below market pricing

[mccaslin15]

I've found a 1.31 carat, triple excellent cut, J-color, and VS2 clarity diamond listed at ~$4,600. It comes to a HCA 1.1 and is 7.9mm by 7.11mm... This seems way below market value and I'm wondering (both for this particular rock and in general) if there is any way to figure out what is causing a stone to be below its expected list price.

 

[flyingpig]

It is really cheap, but not below the market price, especially if the stone is B2C or US CERT. A site like B2C will charge a 20% restocking fee if you plan to upgrade. You need to take this into account when doing price comparison.
Looks great as long as the inclusions don't bother you. strong light return.

Here is a bigger and arguably better cut stone. Still under 5k.
http://diamonddealfinder.com/enquiry.php?id_field=6902713
so.. 4.6k for the stone you listed is not unreasonable.

Why cheap?? You see a few "deals" like this for J and K colored stones time to time.
I guess J and K colored stones are difficult to sell. In general, I or above is considered "quality".
I guess the supplier just wants to get excess inventory moving, unable to properly reach the target customers.
That' just my theory.
I don't see anything wrong with the stone. Recently graded. Got no fluo..

 

[mccaslin15]

I have seen levels of that cheap on USA cert but they don't have pictures or anything, and hadn't checked out much beyond Jamesallen and bluenile. I was worried about the lack of detailed camera work but VS2 (and the photo) seems pretty likely to be eye clean...

 

[flyingpig]

If you are buying from B2C, they will do more in-house inspection and provide you with more photos and IS/ASET images before mounting. They will tell you how eye clean the stone is. If you dislike at that point, you can request for a refund.

This image is actually very detailed and helpful. The photo shows strong light return and minimal leakage.

 

[mccaslin15]

Thanks for the feedback and help. It's funny, you do all this calm steady research and then still start to feel panic when you get close to actually pulling the trigger... I just noticed the certificate says "Comments: Additional clouds, pinpoints and internal graining are not shown." Anything to be concerned about there?

 

[flyingpig]

"Comments: Additional clouds, pinpoints and internal graining are not shown." Anything to be concerned about there?

Nope. not in this case.

 

[mccaslin15]

Follow up on this, the dealer has said: "There are very few crystals on the table which are not visible to naked eyes thus making the diamond 100% eye-clean."

I also found an additional 365 video that shows some marking visible from the side and bottom under magnification...

A little concerning but I assume GIA VS2 will be eye clean despite the reflected markings... these might explain why it is priced lower than average for its grading.

The Aset & IdealScope images also seem like they look pretty great, although I'm no expert.


Thanks again!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Thanks for the feedback and help. It's funny, you do all this calm steady research and then still start to feel panic when you get close to actually pulling the trigger... I just noticed the certificate says "Comments: Additional clouds, pinpoints and internal graining are not shown." Anything to be concerned about there?

Is the stone fluorescent?

 

[mccaslin15]

It has faint to no fluorescence.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

It could be listed at an attractive price because it may be borderline on both color and clarity. It appears to have a brown hue which is not necessarily bad but may factor into the pricing.

GIA cert?

 

[WinkHPD]

I guess J and K colored stones are difficult to sell. In general, I or above is considered "quality".

I think that on the Internet you are correct about the perception of J and K colors being too low.

Ironically, in retail establishments, well cut J's and K's often fly out the door as they are so beautiful.
It is a lot of fun to ask professionals to tell you the color of a diamond when looking at it face up in a mounting.

I once had a 1.28ct K color in a simple platinum solitaire that was showed to several professionals in non jewelry store lighting. When asked to estimate the color, the guesses came in from G-I. Not one came in as low as a J and the majority were H-I.

I content that CUT is FAR more important than color.

Wink

 

[ChristineRose]

I'm seeing black spots right under the table. Are those the crystals mentioned? The plot would indicate that.

 

[mccaslin15]

I'm seeing black spots right under the table. Are those the crystals mentioned? The plot would indicate that.

There definitely are black spots as indicated in the plot in my first post that are then captured/reflected a bit so that they're visible from the bottom and certain side angles, but I can't tell if those would be visible without magnification (which is all I care about). Worst looking shot I could find from straight on bottom:

 

[OoohShiny]

I believe that one of the professionals on here posted a little while ago to say that dark inclusions in photographs may well not be visible to the eye (and be down to photography techniques/limitations, effectively) but I can't remember who it was now...

Inspection at home to make sure it is eye-clean (and mind-clean... lol) is the best/only? option for these situations, I think, but a restocking fee makes the decision a different one to a stone bought from a no-restocking-fee vendor!

 

[mccaslin15]

It could be listed at an attractive price because it may be borderline on both color and clarity. It appears to have a brown hue which is not necessarily bad but may factor into the pricing.

GIA cert?

It's GIA 7258692175

 

[flyingpig]

Again, very strong light return.

 

[flyingpig]

Ironically, in retail establishments, well cut J's and K's often fly out the door as they are so beautiful.
It is a lot of fun to ask professionals to tell you the color of a diamond when looking at it face up in a mounting.
I content that CUT is FAR more important than color.

Wink

Hi Wink.

It is interesting how local cultures are different.
I absolutely agree with you, only if Vancouver had a reputable super ideal cut vendor like yourself. Unfortunately, we don't and the retail environment here is somewhat different. High end stores try to copy what Tiffany does and low end stores try to meet Costco's minimum specs, which are often I VS2. When I visit various dealers from a private jeweller, franchise store, independent drop shipper to Tiffany, and ask for J/K VS stones, their responses are like "(is this guy serious?)", "how did you find out we carry J/K stones?", "it will be very yellow" and "we don't carry such CHEAP combos" (yes, they said this in my face).

Just a story to share. and I have a J. It is beautiful.

 

[WinkHPD]

Aaaack! I see I said I content instead of I contend. If only I had been using my cell phone so I could blame the autocorrect...

I love it that you have the experience of owning, and loving, a J. I just had a diamond Crafted to Order for myself and was anticipating a Q and it came out a P. I was actually hoping for an R or an S, but cutting makes it hard to keep the body color seen in the starting crystal.

I truly love the rich buttery warmth of the "lower" colors and find it hard to believe so many jewelers shoot themselves in the feet by bad mouthing beautiful diamonds, especially to the very people who like them.

Wink

 

[flyingpig]

A J color stone cut by CBI and handled by HPD. That's a winning combo and a good example of "properly reaching the target customers". It is like a chef turning a tough cut of meat into a Michelin 3 star dish, and price it and market it accordingly.
Not everyone is capable of this.

 

[OoohShiny]

Aaaack! I see I said I content instead of I contend. If only I had been using my cell phone so I could blame the autocorrect...

I love it that you have the experience of owning, and loving, a J. I just had a diamond Crafted to Order for myself and was anticipating a Q and it came out a P. I was actually hoping for an R or an S, but cutting makes it hard to keep the body color seen in the starting crystal.

I truly love the rich buttery warmth of the "lower" colors and find it hard to believe so many jewelers shoot themselves in the feet by bad mouthing beautiful diamonds, especially to the very people who like them.

Wink

You have two fails in this thread - spelling (and I entirely empathise with the frustration of making an error, having slight perfectionist OCD myself ) and the lack of pictures of your new shiny lol

 

[WinkHPD]

It is being mounted my friend, so I don't have pictures yet.

Also, as a jeweler, I will not be allowed to post pictures in this thread...

I can tell you that it is INCREDIBLE!

Wink

 

[Karl_K]

I truly love the rich buttery warmth of the "lower" colors and find it hard to believe so many jewelers shoot themselves in the feet by bad mouthing beautiful diamonds, especially to the very people who like them.

Wink

I agree 100%
Many years ago I bought into the D is king but I ended up buying a superbly cut j for my wifey just a few years later.
Don't get me wrong D is nice too the octavia #1 is a D.
But there is just something about well cut stones in the n and lower range that appeal to me. Both yellows and browns.

These days my thoughts on color are that: it is what it is buy what appeals to you.

 

[OoohShiny]

It is being mounted my friend, so I don't have pictures yet.

Also, as a jeweler, I will not be allowed to post pictures in this thread...

I can tell you that it is INCREDIBLE!

Wink

Booooooo

I'm sure there's a thread in SMTB that is for personal collections of vendors!

 

[mccaslin15]

A J color stone cut by CBI and handled by HPD. That's a winning combo and a good example of "properly reaching the target customers". It is like a chef turning a tough cut of meat into a Michelin 3 star dish, and price it and market it accordingly.
Not everyone is capable of this.

How can you tell those things? I don't see any of that info from the certificate. So you don't think the brown tint and/or the markings will make it dull?

 

[OoohShiny]

CBI stones are designed to have the highest cut accuracy and to balance white light and fire, with edge-to-edge brightness in nearly all lighting conditions.

What flyingpig is referring to is that such a cut will return so much white and coloured light to the viewers' eyes that the J colour will be barely noticeable face-up. You would still see tint from the side, of course, as diamonds aren't designed to reflect light from the side, but the cut would make a J look whiter than you would expect.


In the interests of presenting both sides of the coin for balance, arguably a good GIA XXX or AGS000 stone would also do a good job of returning white and coloured light, and there has been a great deal of discussion on this forum about whether the differences between A.N.Other stone and a branded stone from CBI/HPD/GOG/BGD/WF/etc is noticeable to the casual or even experienced viewer, but either way, the outcome is what this forum is all about - finding the best cuts to ensure the best light return, which makes a diamond look whiter and sparkle better

 

[ChristineRose]

How can you tell those things? I don't see any of that info from the certificate. So you don't think the brown tint and/or the markings will make it dull?

Crafted by Infinity is a brand sold by High Performance diamonds. You can pay a premium and buy from them or similar high-end dealers and not have to worry about these things much.

Brown tint doesn't make a diamond dull. It makes it brown. A poorly cut diamond is dull. Inclusions have to be pretty bad before they will make a diamond dull. It's visible black spots you have to worry about. Like a dirty mirror, not a dim mirror.

You can read through the PS tutorials for how to evaluate a diamond's cut, including what you can and cannot get from a certificate.

 

[flyingpig]

How can you tell those things? I don't see any of that info from the certificate.

sorry. I was not talking about your stone when I mentioned CBI and HPD

So you don't think the brown tint and/or the markings will make it dull?

I have not read any article that a brown tint makes a diamond appear duller. In fact, we are talking a brown tint in J, which is still near colorless.
And those inclusions are VS2 inclusions which B2C said they are not visible. So, no, I don't think they will negatively affect brilliance.

 

[ChristineRose]

In the interests of presenting both sides of the coin for balance, arguably a good GIA XXX or AGS000 stone would also do a good job of returning white and coloured light, and there has been a great deal of discussion on this forum about whether the differences between A.N.Other stone and a branded stone from CBI/HPD/GOG/BGD/WF/etc is noticeable to the casual or even experienced viewer, but either way, the outcome is what this forum is all about - finding the best cuts to ensure the best light return, which makes a diamond look whiter and sparkle better

TBH, most people can't tell the difference between a piece of glass and a diamond under casual conditions. There's about 10,000 things that go into what a diamond looks like. You can however get exceptional light performance and people WILL notice the difference between that and the piece of glass.